Just as a little side note (and not related to the topic of your thread - please feel free to ignore)

CE 1673 in volume 23 of the WC Hearings page 144.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=176&tab=page

shows the building at 1312 Commerce was owned by H.H. Nichols and Clarice Nichols.

I wonder if Jack Ruby's girlfriend, Alice Nichols was related.

Steve Thomas

On 4/30/2017 at 8:39 PM, Michael Clark said:

Telecommunications were necessarily a part of the Dallas coup de ta.

Jack Ruby's Carousell Lounge occupied the lot that is now the HQ of the major carrier of that region.

i am looking to research the history of that "lot", here, in this thread. 

 

 

Michael,

I think the 1/2 part of 1312 1/2 Commerce meant that it was upstairs. The WC is full of stories about Ruby throwing people down the stairs.

You might be interested in these photos:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/408701734911782916/

https://www.pinterest.com/perry_vermeulen/carousel-club/

It looks like the downstairs, or ground floor was a barbeque joint; the Real Pit Bar-B-Q

Steve Thomas

On 2/17/2017 at 1:00 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

 

 

 

These are designated C-133a, C-133b, and C-133c respectively.

I don't know much about photography, but I've always been struck by the fact that in the picture on the bottom left, the slats of the fence and the vertical post to Oswald's left are straight up and down. In the pictures on the top and the bottowm right, the slats in the fence and the vertical post to Oswald's left are slanting to our right.

To me, it looks like "somebody's" picture has been pasted on a picture that was slightly cockeyed.

Forget about Oswald falling over, that whole fencing and shed should have fallen over. :-)

Steve Thomas

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Steve:

Those who lost their enterprises or properties, those who ended up in jail after the coup, and those who suffocated under the new regime, wanted to flee the country desperately. This was still possible during the first months of 1948. These people usually ended up in the US bases in Germany. It took months, maybe a year or two, to sort out the asylum visa to the US. After coming to US, the exiles may have first arrived to New York, and only after few months they would find the right place for themselves. Thus, 1950 is the year where logically a surge of immigrants from central and Eastern Europe could be expected in Dallas.

Andrej,

Thank you.

Steve Thomas

An Inventory of Texas State Guard/Texas Defense Guard/Texas State Guard Reserve Corps Records at the Texas State Archives, 1938-1983, undated (bulk 1941-1945)

These records are housed at the Texas State Library in Austin.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/tslac/30026/tsl-30026.html

In January 1958, the TSGRC was reorganized as follows: an Active Reserve, a Ready Reserve, an Inactive Reserve, an Enlisted Reserve, an Honorary Reserve, a Provost Marshal Section, and an ROTC-NDCC [Reserve Officer Training Corps-National Defense Cadet Corps] Group. As the most important component, the Active Reserve was composed of a Corps Headquarters, one Corps Radio Unit, six Defense Group Headquarters, six Defense Group Radio Units, 30 Internal Security Battalions (about half of them strictly cadre units with officer personnel only), and 12 Radio and Rescue Detachments, with a total authorized strength of 10,000 officers and enlisted men.

Members of the Guard would neither be liable for, nor exempt from, federal military service as a result of their membership in the Guard. Eventually 51 battalions were formed, each battalion containing a headquarters and a headquarters detachment, a service detachment, and a medical detachment, in addition to between four and eight companies. Up to fifteen air force squadrons, two battalions of field artillery, and several bands, were also authorized. In 1943 the 48th Legislature, by House Bill 585, changed the name of the organization to the Texas State Guard, and made a distinction between the active and the reserve militia.

Battalion records, 1941-1947,

They comprise the records of the 51 battalions of the Texas Defense Guard/Texas State Guard, plus records of the bands, unassigned companies, and air squadrons, 1941-1947. These records are both at the battalion/squadron level and at the company/detachment/flight level. The four Battalions in the Dallas area were the 19^th, the 29^th, the 35^th and the 51^st.

The 29^th Battalion was commanded by Major E.M. Dealey.

E.M. Dealey would go on to become the publisher of the Dallas Morning News

Battalion records, 1948-1971, undated,

In addition to the quarterly strength reports, there are organizational files that include correspondence and memoranda, military orders (general, special, and field orders), reports of annual inspections, daily staff journals, battalion rosters, requests for reassignments, handbooks, etc.

Much more voluminous, however, are the strength reports and organization files of the Internal Security Battalions and Security Units of the six Defense Groups of the Texas State Guard, mainly 1961-1971.

The 1^st Defense Group covered northeast Texas. As part of the 1^st Defense Group, the 102^nd Battalion comprised Dallas, Irving, Terrell, Kaufman

(For records on the 488^th, or documents mentioning any of the people mentioned in this thread, I think I'd look at the records of this 102^nd Battalion).

Administrative records, 1940-1983, undated (bulk 1948-1983),

Types of records in these files include correspondence and memoranda; bulletins and circulars; articles; legislation and regulations; tables of organization; general orders and special orders; handbooks/manuals; station lists; assignment rosters

Chronological files, 1941-1969

These records consist of chronological files dating 1941-1969. They include general and special orders from the Adjutant General's Department and the Texas Defense Guard/Texas State Guard/Texas State Guard Reserve Corps; memoranda, circulars, and bulletins; chief of staff assignments and assistant chief of staff assignments (i.e., personnel assignments authorized by Col. Donald W. Peacock and Col. Weldon M. Swenson, respectively); station lists; and miscellaneous other records, for 1941-1969.

Conferences

Dallas Area Conference, [1963]

Texas State Guard Association officers rosters, minutes, and programs; anti-communist publications; logs; (It makes sense to me that some, or all, of these people would have joined the Association).

Steve Thomas

On 10/17/2016 at 1:51 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

The Russian language started to be taught as a compulsory subject in Czech schools only after 1948 when the communists took over Czechoslovakia. There was another wave of exiles in 1948, and Mr. Zboril could have been maybe less than 10 years old should he come to the US during this wave of immigration. He would not speak Russian, and he would be strongly anti-communist.

Andrej, (or anyone else for that matter)

In his WC testimony, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

George Bouhe said, 

"... when I came in 1939, there were absolutely only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married people, married to Americans, and so on. So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950.
In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came to Dallas from Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people, native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian Empire. By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and that was the language.         (Russian I would guess)
It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps in Germany--they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a 10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him."

Does anyone know why there would be a sudden influx of immigrants from Eastern Europe into the United States in 1950?

Steve Thomas

PS: A regiment would have between 1,000 to 2,000 men.  Without being in the same platoon, I'd be surprised if the SS Agent and Oswald knew each other.

On 2/12/2017 at 1:16 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Over the years, a number of groups, or at least rogue elements of those groups have been floated as suspects in the assassination of JFK. These have included the CIA, the mob, the right wing, etc. However, I believe that there was another group of people who seem to appear in key circumstances associated with this event; and these are colonels in the U.S. Army Reserves, and more specifically the intelligence services of that military mileau. 
 

These Reservists include among others:

Jack A. Crichton,

George L. Whitmeyer,

George Lumpkin

,Lester Logue.

L. Robert Castorr, and I'll float another name;

Colonel Frank M. (Maryan) "Brandy" Brandstetter

I guess I'd add another name:

Colonel Lawrence Orlov.

Accompanied George DeMohrenschildt to meet the Oswalds for the first time in the Fall of 1962.

A Record from Mary's Database:

Record: ORLOV, LAWRENCE COL.

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/marysdb.php?id=7127

Dallas oil man. Friend of George deMohrenschildt. Orlov and deMohrenschildt went to Ft. Worth in 1962 to call on the Oswalds.

It's funny how a lot of these Colonels seem to be in the oil industry: Crichton, Logue, Castorr, Orlov.

Steve Thomas

On 7/15/2010 at 5:59 AM, Greg Parker said:

Thanks Robert.

A member of the Unitarian Church? Then there is a reasonable chance he knew Michael Paine.

I think there is a very good possibility that Orlov knew the Paines.

From the WC testimony of George DeMohrenschildt:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; still active. I think it was in 1952--because I was not married---we still had the partnership. I was visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him I met my next wife, my last wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, who was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Wynne Sharples.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the Sharples family.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia, Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and also in the oil business.

Mr. JENNER. Was the Sharples family wealthy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very wealthy.
Mr. JENNER. Socially prominent?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Socially prominent. But not too interested in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is interested.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We got married, I think, after her graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills.

Steve Thomas

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Next Trivia Question

 

Who are these two people?

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

 

Tracy,

You're half right.

The figure on the left is Jean-Rene Souetre.

Nicknamed Robin des Bois (Robin of the Wood), he named his first born son "Little John".

Steve Thomas

This is not apropos to anything, but I happened to stumble on it while looking for something else.

Just for curiosity's sake:

http://www.patriotfiles.com/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=1235&page=1

Steve Thomas

Next Trivia Question

Who are these two people?

Steve Thomas

30 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

MY NEXT JFK ASSASSINATION TANGENTIALLY-RELATED TRIVIA QUESTION FOR Y'ALL:

Why was Marina Oswald Porter investigated by the Dallas Police Department in 1974?

--  Tommy

It was petty theft wasn't it?

And is the gerund, "losing"?

Steve Thomas

10 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

 

Yes Steve, It was Vince Salandria. 

 I certainly had read this take before and attributed it to a general observation among interested parties. In this Simkin bio, it is close to being verbatum.

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKsalandria.htm

 

 

 

Michael,

Quoting someone named, Michael Clark:

"The term is "Future Shock". While the term usually has more to do with the impact of accelerating industrialism on social psychology, I see, and am searching for, a comparable term that describes the planned, and actual, impact of the JFKA on the American and world psychology."

"Future Shock" - that's a good term for it.

PS: Thanks for the Cicero quote. Gorious banquet indeed. Didn't like Antony much, did he?

Steve Thomas

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

David Lifton and Steve Thomas:

When we start deferring... on important evidentiary issues in this case, why even continue to debate?

 

Jim,

I wasn't "deferring" to anyone.

I was simply pointing out to Paul that the issue of "filing cabinets" or "little metal boxes" containing Cuban names has been addressed before, and where that information came from.

As to their size, Buddy Walthers also said in his WC testimony, 

"then we found some little metal file cabinets---I don't know what kind you would call them---they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves. 
Mr. LIEBELER. About how many of them would you think there were? 
Mr. WALTHERS. There were six or seven, I believe, and I put them all in the trunk of my car..."

It would be hard to imagine putting six or seven, two-drawer, or four-drawer filing cabinets in the trunk of your car.

Steve Thomas

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

David - I think Jim is right. I just read the Hidell info in Accessories, and see the part you refer to. My memory, and I looked carefully at this a while ago, is that the first inspection of the Paine house turned up a filing cabinet with numerous cards with Cuban names. It wasn't clear if these were pro or anti Castro. Normally when this is mentioned anywhere the speculation is that the cards belonged to Ruth. Since there is no further record of this astounding find, we are in the dark. But given that it is possible that Oswald was seen at an Alpha 66 safe house in Dallas, and that he was known to associate with exiles in New Orleans, I think it more likely they belonged to Oswald, and that he was monitoring them as part of some assignment, whether official or not. Just my take. I wish there was more info on this. It seems very important. 

Paul,

You might want to look at this 2014 thread from the alt.assassination newsgroup.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/z2VxKzrDLEg

and read through Buddy Walthers' Report 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/walther1.htm

"Upon searching this house we found stacks of hand bills concerning "Cuba for Freedom" advertising, seeking publicity and support for Cuba. Also found was a set of metal file cabinets containing records that appeared to be names and activities of Cuban sympathizers. All of this evidence was confiscated and turned over to Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police Department and Secret Service Officers at the City Hall."

and his follow-up WC testimony.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/walthers.htm

Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas

27 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Larry

Or it could mean all the CIA needed was a nod by JFK and they would run with it. 

 

George,

The problem was that some people in the CIA were "running with it" even without a nod from JFK - ala Harvey's insertion of a ten-man team into Cuba during the Missile Crisis.

God, what he could possibly have been thinking of?

Steve Thomas

36 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I have been wanting to put a term out there, but I have not felt that I could intelligently integrate it into this discussion. It's meaning in literary criticism suggests, goes beyond, and ultimately falls short of the psychological affect of the psychological results the Dallas Coup. The term is "Future Shock". While the term usually has more to do with the impact of accelerating industrialism on social psychology, I see, and am searching for, a comparable term that describes the planned, and actual, impact of the JFKA on the American and world psychology.

The message was that our President could be assassinated, and his ideals and dreams as well as those of people who believed that peace and justice were attainable, would be killed and buried with him, with impunity.

We were not meant to actually believe in the Warren Comission's findings. We were meant to believe that this could be done and their was nothing that we could do about it.

Cicero called the assassination of Caesar a "Wonderful Banquet". With the assassinations of RFK, MLK, Malcom X, and a host of others, banquets became akin to McDonalds take-out.

MacBeth's refrain of "Nothing is, But what is not" became the solace fed to an accepting populace.

Michael,

I was just reading something along these same lines just the other day - maybe it was Salandria?

Whoever I was reading (and I'd hate to attribute it to anyone in particular in case I get it wrong), was saying that the conspiracy was so transparent that it was meant to be discovered. The damage came afterwards when the federal government failed to follow up and that said to the American people, "See, this can happen and there's "nothing you can do about it."" 

I mean, how can the HSCA determine that there was a 95% probability that there was a conspiracy, and the Justice Department just that lay there like some kind of foul smelling rotten egg?  That's outrageous.

Could you provide another line or two from Cicero's quote? I'd like to roll that around in my brain for a while.

Steve Thomas

41 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Steve, I think "projection" captures what I was saying far better than the way I said it...sigh...then again if one word will do I usually use a couple of dozen...

I don't view Dallas in isolation, actually I view it as a product the rampant fear and paranoia of the Cold War - part of the same fear that did lead the US into not just an armed struggle in places like Korea and Vietnam but at least as dangerously into deniable, covert warfare against what was seen as a world wide communist movement - but which in most cases was simply an independence movement involving anti-colonialism and post war nationalism. The degree of fear (which included the fear of losing economic hegemony) was tremendous - triggered by Stalin but fueled by Kennan and in particular John Foster Dulles.  While everyone around here probably sees Alan Dulles as the worlds biggest villain, I look towards brother John. 

To the point...people like Kennan and the Dulles brothers drove Eisenhower into a position where the world was black and white and in an existential struggle....JFK was one of the very few with the vision and courage to get beyond that.  He could actually see value in neutrality (which is were he was about to push Castro in the fall of 63).  That was the reason he was able to start separating India from Russia. The problem was that was viewed by many as so naive as to be virtually traitorous.

Which is why I believe that the move towards the attack in Dallas actually began in the summer of 1963 with word being circulated on the Castro contacts and while it solidified in October with confirmation down from Angleton about JFKs totally independent and back channel negotiations with Castro. Sadly we can almost date that since we now have documents showing that JM/WAVE and Mexico City suddenly and with no prior interest became focused on at least one individual who was part of that covert dialog between JFK and Castro.

See...one more example of where I could have just said Yes but wasn't able to...

Larry,

Whew.

Several Things:

1) I don't mind if you babble.      heehee

You've taught me a lot over the years.

2) You might be interested in reading this article:   https://libcom.org/library/strategy-tension   at least the first 3 or 4 paragraphs. It echoes a lot of what you said in your post above, I think. You have to overlook the fact that he got the year of the Generals' Putsch wrong.

This Guido Giannettini was no mere "journalist"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_Giannettini

3) I agree with you about John Dulles. Between him and George Kennan they did a lot of damage. I remember reading about Kennan when I was a wee lad and thinking even then that he was pretty extreme.

4) Along with JFK's backchannel negotiations with Castro, I'd include his backchannel communications with Kruschev. Any chance that got out somehow?

5) What do you think of the Bay of Pigs veterans who came back and were incorporated into the US Armed Forces? I think I've read that some (if not a lot) of them were trained alongside of Green Berets at Fort Benning was it? Do any of them in particular factor in to how you see JFK's demise went down? Those guys must have been highly trained.

Steve Thomas

On 4/19/2017 at 8:10 PM, Larry Hancock said:

Business as usual Paul, I was trying to point out that everything from contingency planning (including provocations and false flag tension and destabilization programs) are very real practices and occur constantly.  And the US is not the only nation that practices them. All these things are quite serious and is important to know about them; however in my view just because they exist does not mean that they were associated with Dallas. On the other hand, we also know a great deal about assassination practices and in particular deniable practices - we have Harvey's exec action notes, we have examples of several CIA projects and for that matter a number of Russian deniable assassinations including some recent ones. The practices are laid out for us and pretty consistent.  And in the case of Dallas its possible to connect the dots showing that CIA folks and for that matter exiles involved in assassination projects were involved in the JFK assassination.  I know it sounds like I'm being repetitive but I fail to understand why when we have solid leads to people who were doing assassinations then and who considered JFK an imminent national security threat (the CIA types) and/or a traitor to their country (CIA assets and exiles) we continue to look further afield and wrestle around at the concept level when we already have well defined motives, people and timelines that connect everything together.  But that's just me.

Larry,

"All these things are quite serious and is important to know about them; however in my view just because they exist does not mean that they were associated with Dallas."

That was the intent of my original question. 

Earlier, you wrote, "All of which is my way of saying that that there is a real risk in approaching this case - and any major historical event - at the level Sanandria does rather than at the level a criminal investigator would. If you start at a very high level and with a pretty strong idea of what you are going to find, you are very likely to find traces of what you expected."

In psychology terms, what do they call that? Projection?

OTOH, should Dallas be viewed in isolation, or was it part of a historical trend? Was Dallas part of Serac's "armed struggle on a planetary dimension"?

Steve Thomas

Northwoods was a set of hypothetical planning scenarios only as they related to Cuba.

However, state-sponsored terrorist actions to sway public opinion was nothing new.

Remember the Maine! (cried the newspapers). (If you believe that the Spanish ship didn't blow up the ship).

(Which also happened to involve Cuba, but that's just a coincidence).

I think the assassination attempt against DeGaulle in August, 1962 and JFK's assassination in November, 1963 are related. Aside from trying to keep Algeria as one of France's Departments, talk of DeGaulle being a communist and French Intelligence being infiltrated by Communists was one of the major reasons behind the General's Putsch in April, 1961.

I think that the 1961 frustrations over the failed April, 1961 General's Putsch, the failed April, 1961 Bay of Pigs, and the failed April, 1961 coup in Laos boiled over and led to some serious planning for assassination as the only remedy left. With DeGaulle, there were attempts in 1961 and 1962. With Kennedy, it came in 1963.

Steve Thomas

Clint Hill's Warren Commission testimony:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_c.htm

We took the body from the hospital and departed the Parkland Hospital about 2:04 p.m.

Roy Kellerman's original report:

Between I p.m., and our departure from the hospital at 2:04 p.m. cst., a casket was obtained...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-kelle.htm

An unsigned and undated statement from someone at Parkland. Price Exhibit 2
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Price_Ex_2-35.pdf page 4.
He left the Emergency Room, the President, at about 2 p.m. In an O'Neal ambulance.

Shankles. Hospital Security Office. Price Exhibit 29
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Price_Ex_2-35.pdf  page 86

At about 2:00 p.m., we received word to clear a passageway through the emergency corridor of all personnel and within a few minutes the casket bearing President Kennedy's body was escorted out by Secret Service Agents and Placed in a hearse. 

Statement by Charles D. Gerloff Security Officer Dallas County Hospital District
Price Exhibit 29
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Price_Ex_2-35.pdf page 88

As the casket came out, Mrs. Kennedy at its side, I helped put it into the hearse and watched it leave at approximately 1:30 P.M.

Statement by DORIS NELSON, R.N. Price Exhibit 31
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Price_Ex_2-35.pdf page 92

At approximately 2:10 P.M. The President's body was taken out of the Emergency Room. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside it,. All of the secret service agents left the area.

Statement by J.C. Price Price Exhibit 33 http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Price_Ex_2-35.pdf page 113 of pdf file

At  the time the casket passed the cashier's office, I looked at my watch – the time was 2:20 p.m. I watched the hearse leave, then went back into the Blood Bank...

So, what time did JFK leave Parkland?

Was it 1:30?

Was it 2:04?

Was it 2:10?

Was it 2:20?

The two SS Agents agree down to the exact minute. This is probably based upon an official report that they both relied on when testifying.

Was the one hour difference between Gerloff and Price because one was going on Central time and the other on Eastern time?

Steve Thomas

6 hours ago, David Lifton said:

Steve,

Essentially, agreed.

Pardon my brevity, but am under much time pressure.

Re your post: I know about the first and fourth items on your 4-item list above. But. . . :

Could you elaborate on #2 ("herding" etc)?  I think I once saw, or possessed, a document from a Parkland "candystriper" (from the Garrison files, I think, but am not sure). If you could lay your hands on that, could you send it to me (please  use DSL74@cornell.edu), or simply send me a link, if such exists.

Similar request re "taping over the windows" - - I'm assuming that comes from a document about Gov JC's security precautions. If so, please just send me the citation. I know I've seen that somewhere.

Thanks.

DSL

4/19/2017 - 6:55 a.m. PDT

David,

I emailed you what I had. If you don't get this, let me know and I'll post it here.

Steve Thomas

49 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Northwoods was simply a contingency planning study by a staff group with no operational connections to anything. It was really just one more set of sensational plans...

 

If you really start studying covert and deniable operations outside the JFK focus, you see these practices - deniable provocations, false flags and a host of others - as being tactics and tradecraft, used by many agencies and groups and by most major nations....the British were adept at them and so were the Russians (even before the Soviet Union). But the problem is that they are all designed to be deniable which means they look like something they are not...and if you read them into any particular real world incident its just speculation without some corroboration. 

 

So now I'll go away and stop being annoying... 

 

Larry,

I have sometimes thought that Northwoods was so over the top that it reads like satire sometimes.

"speculation without some corroboration."

Ah yes. The Holy Grail.  

The problem, as you well know, is that we are never going to find a set of written orders that say, "Go out and do this", (JFK's murder) and you can see later that it was done. 

Who was it that famously asked, "Who will remove this stone from my shoe"? I thought it was in relation to Sir Thomas More, but now I can't find that reference.

That's how I think Kennedy's assassination was finalized.

With a wink and a nod.

Vince Salandria challenged us to stop asking how Kennedy was assassinated, and start asking why.

I sent a text message to Jim DiEugenio congratulating him the other day. I had seen a youtube video of Jim. His premise was that JFK was killed because as far back as 1961 he was attempting to allow smaller countries like Algeria and the Congo to keep their own natural resources. I thought that Jim was right on the money.

From me: forget communism - that's just a means to an end. Fascism, communism - they're just tools.  It's really about the control of natural resources and raw materials, e.g. oil.

"So now I'll go away and stop being annoying... "

Don't.

Steve Thomas

don't stop being annoying, just...     hahaha 

44 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Steve, I know I'm not going to make any friends with this but just as Northwoods was simply a contingency planning study by a staff group with no operational connections to anything. It was really just one more set of sensational plans that came of the Lansdale era psychological warfare approach and got no traction at all. Its very possible that something similar may have been generated in December of 1960 when President Eisenhower requested that the CIA give him some provocations that might be used immediately to kick off the Cuba project because it was falling way behind schedule. Northwoods is written about as if it were something very special while in reality its just one in a long line of psych warfare measures which were floated over time with almost all of them  going absolutely nowhere.

What I was trying to say in my post is that things like the provocation options called out in Northwoods are standard tactics - as much as we might dislike them - and have been in use for generations. As to the Gulf of Tonkin, we know so much more about that now - and studies have been made of the actual NSA intercepts and the cover up that Johnson and McNamara conducted that we know the second incident was a total mistake and Johnson just seized on the opportunity for political purposes. And then the cover up and reality alteration began, only confirmed decades later.

If you really start studying covert and deniable operations outside the JFK focus, you see these practices - deniable provocations, false flags and a host of others - as being tactics and tradecraft, used by many agencies and groups and by most major nations....the British were adept at them and so were the Russians (even before the Soviet Union). But the problem is that they are all designed to be deniable which means they look like something they are not...and if you read them into any particular real world incident its just speculation without some corroboration. 

The risk with the JFK assassination is that looking at fingerprints of intelligence is a lot like looking at motive...its almost always possible to find a motive (actually dozens in this case) and with any major historical incident you can find patterns that suggest various types of conspiracies including intelligence involvement. Your world view and political outlook tends to drive which  you pick - as we can see on this forum. Given that I am a CT and do see the involvement of intelligence officers and assets in the assassination I hope expressing these cautions will be taken as friendly input rather than debunking for the sake of being a devout skeptic (which I am, but not devout)

All of which is my irritating way of saying that that there is a real risk in approaching this case - and any major historical event - at the level Sanandria does rather than at the level a criminal investigator would. If you start at a very high level and with a pretty strong idea of what you are going to find, you are very likely to find traces of what you expected. Heaven only knows we see enough of that in political views these days.  

So now I'll go away and stop being annoying... 

Larry,

I'm going to do something that I don't very often do.

I'm going to quote you in full, so that it gets repeated twice.

What you said is that important.

Steve Thomas

On 4/17/2017 at 0:23 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Larry,

 

I bumped up against the "strategy" when reading up on Guerin Serac and Aginter Presse,  and Gladio.

Not Gladio as it started out, but what it morphed into as the Cold War went on.

Political assassinations (Aldo Moro in Italy, etc.) and the campaigns of false-flag terrorist bombings were widespread in Europe in the 1950's - 1980's.

Operation Northwoods was just one example of this strategy of tension.

I got to wondering if JFK was just another link in the chain.

Here is an interesting interview with Daniele Ganser as late as 4/6/17:

He talks about Northwoods and Lemnitzer among other things.

http://themillenniumreport.com/2017/04/natos-secret-armies-operation-gladio-and-the-strategy-of-tension/

 

Steve Thomas

This essay by Ganser is very interesting.

Northwoods and the Gulf of Tonkin incident were both strategy of tension operations.

Guerin Serac is highlighted.

He mentions Stansfield Turner's reaction to questions about Gladio.

https://www.danieleganser.ch/assets/files/Inhalte/Publikationen/Buchkapitel/Artikel_Ganser_TheStrategyofTension.pdf

Steve Thomas