Joe Bauer

Did Roger Craig ever describe his take of the shot sequence? I know he was not actually in Dealey Plaza when they were fired, but right around the corner on Main. And Craig did say he heard the "reports." How about the many press men in the motorcade? Did any of them describe a sequence of the shots?

Did not one member of the press in the cars behind the presidential limo have any sound recording device operating when they got to the Houston Street turn off from Main? Something they could have been talking into like a tape recorder? Except for a left open motorcycle radio transmitter, we have not one sound recording device going in or near Dealey Plaza while JFK was being driven through?

Could be. She was quite young at the time - in her mid-twenties? In her well known decades later TMWKK documentary "through and through bullet hole" interview her hair is of course greying and she looks around 60 in age. However in the Parkland emergency entrance photo RU posted we see some plainclothes agency men doing something with the presidential limo. One of them is actually sitting in the driver's seat with his legs hanging out the open door. Two others are standing on either side of the back passenger area using their hands to perhaps begin the process of preparing the limo to have it's hard top installed. The trunk is open and something like a tarp is visible. Gangles stated that as she was examining the hole in the limo windshield she was practically leaning on the hood at which point a "security officer" jumped in the limo and backed it out away from her and she never saw it again. So, obviously her up close look at the limo must have taken place after this photo was taken. WATCH LATER ADD TO QUEUE The Limo Windshield, Bullet from Front SCGATOR2001 A witness tells how she saw the hole in the limo windshield before it was taken away. Her description matches the Ford Manager ... CC

I strongly agree EB. Very commonly reported. Even by Kellerman I believe. So, Harold Ray Norman ( who reportedly was just feet below the shooter in the 6th floor widow) testified that he heard 3 shots. "Boom - click-click, BOOM - click click, BOOM - click-click." 3 shells were found on the floor just below the snipers perch window. Pretty convincing evidence that three shots were fired. And dozens if not hundreds of Dealey Plaza ear witnesses reported they heard three shots, with half or more of them describing their sequence with the "Bam...Bam Bam" imitation. With the last two being so close together, there was no way a shooter could get a bolt action rifle to work that fast. The WC concluded that only two shots hit JFK, Connally or any part of the limo. Which means according to Norman and the three "hulls" found on the floor above him that one of the three shots missed not only JFK and Connolly, but the entire limo? Some expert marksman that shooter...no?

R.U. Thank you for the new Parkland Hospital photos. I also just viewed all 230+ photos in your Gallery. Really interesting as well. Thank you for posting the link. Never been to Texas. I really feel like I got a great "lay of the land" over-view of the entire Dallas Metropolitan area, especially from that 1960's time frame. I'm fascinated by the development of large city areas. You really see, understand and appreciate the great amount of architectural, engineering, urban planning and economic brain work involved. As well as the sheer will and energy to make it all come to fruition. Yes, Seth Kantor was right there in the middle of the most dramatic scene locations wasn't he? But the Warren Commission decided he was Jeanne Hill over-excited and out of it when it came to his testimony of bumping into and even talking to Jack Ruby at Parkland hospital the afternoon of 11,22,1963.

SC and RU, thanks for photo's. Okay, yes, the curb obstacle was real.

Your summary seems very coherent to me. And as I have mentioned many times, with limo driver Greer's 180% head turn to look back at JFK when the shots and shouts started ( he did this twice ) it is strongly logical and likely that his foot would let up on the accelerator and probably effect his steering as well, explaining a slight swerving to the left...no?

From this picture it is obvious that the concrete divider ends just after passing under the overpass making a Main Street access to the Stemmons Freeway a piece of cake. So, did the concrete divider end like this in November of 1963? Or was the concrete divider broken up later? You are joking about the crossing problem SC - right? If this photo is real for the 1963 time frame ( and not a physically reconfigured or photo shopped creation later ) it destroys that flimsy excuse for taking this two 90% turn slowing, perfect turkey shoot sniper location dog leg through the sparse crowd Dealey Plaza. Reminds me of the David Ferry/Lee Oswald Civil Air Patrol cookout photo destroying Gerald Posner's "Ferry and Oswald never met" credibility.

BC, some thoughts. In her time living with Lee in Minsk, did Marina ever testify that he exhibited or even talked about the extreme political views ( including aggressive and even killing behavior ) he talked to her about after they moved back here to the states? Marina testified that Lee told her about his attempt to kill Walker. He talked about hijacking a plane to fly he and Marina to Cuba. She said she had to lock him in the bathroom to prevent him from going to see Nixon and taking his revolver. Seriously suggesting hijacking planes and shooting people? These are the most violent thoughts and suggestions on Oswald's part. Marina described them as crazy talk. It shocked and scared her. Marina must have thought she was living with an unstable madman, and that she and her daughter could get caught up in the most dire circumstances themselves if Lee kept talking about and doing these most violent and risky things. My question though is this: In all their time together in Minsk, did Marina ever say that Oswald talked and acted differently there than he did in their last year in NO and Dallas/Irving/Oak Cliff? Where Lee said and did things here in the states that were so aggressively political and extreme. His activity in New Orleans, his Walker scheme, his Nixon thing, his hijacking suggestion, his trip to Mexico. Did Marina get any inkling as to Lee's super extreme political and even violent personal comments ( crazy talk ) thoughts and behavior that he exhibited here in the states when she lived with him back in Minsk? Or, did Lee just change when he got here?

Also, it seems generally accepted now that the indentation in the upper windshield frame of the presidential limo was not there up until the shooting of JFK. And look at that indentation. The center of it is a round bullet shape. It is deep enough to insert ones pinky tip for sure. The metal around it is lifted up and twisted and this was steel! It is facing back towards the alleged incoming shooting angle of back to front. If this bullet hole shaped indentation was made by the same JFK head shot bullet, one has to conclude that, despite going through human skull bone twice, that enough of the bullet remained to continue on and powerfully impact the windshield frame to the degree that it literally lifted and twisted it's steel. That is one hard jacketed bullet! Yet, didn't the autopsy show the head shot bullet disintegrated greatly or broke up enough that separate small bullet fragments were found on the seats or floor by the SS? Did any of those fragments match in shape and size the indentation hole? The indentation, if made during the shooting, indicates another bullet being fired at JFK besides the one major skull obliteration one. Too bad the indentation was so neglected in the limo forensic investigation.

Another part of the Lee Harvey enigma that has at times puzzled me. In almost every testimony of people who knew or interacted with Lee Harvey Oswald after his wife gave birth, there is a consensus of his affectionate and protective attitude toward Junie for sure. At times, Lee fussed over Junie more than Marina she stated and he would even chastise Marina for things he perceived as less than the best motherly attentiveness toward her. Oswald may have been abusive toward Marina at times, but I don't think I've ever read anything but Oswald's sincere and protective affection toward Junie. And remember also, that even in his incredibly stressful incarceration time after he is arrested, Oswald makes it a point to tell Marina to make sure to get Junie some new shoes with the money he left with Marina. And remember he gave Marina instructions for her protection and care if he was arrested for the Walker shooting. He also ran to confront those that he perceived were upsetting and harassing Marina, such as SA James Hosty? I mention this reality of Oswald ( his paternal and spousal concern and protective love ) as another contrary aspect to his basic personality versus the typical assassin imo. Also, it's so contrary to the alleged cold blooded killer who tried to blow General Walker's head off, did so with JFK ( inches from his horrified wife's face ) and then gunned down Officer J.D. Tippit, sadistically pumping more bullets into him than he needed to after he was already down. There is a pattern with all the other assassination attempting shooters I mentioned that we all remember. Bremer, Chapman, Hinkley, Sirhan, James Earl Ray, Squeaky Fromme. One that Oswald didn't fit into. None of them had children. None of them had a wife,. None of them had someone else close to consider being hurt deeply by their extreme actions. In Oswald's case, if he did do all these shootings, he must have had at least one fleeting thought about the consequences to his daughters if he ever got caught in these most notorious actions. Just before Oswald shot at JFK ( if he did ) I would think that he may have considered the pain and shame he was about to bestow upon his children whom he reportedly felt deep love for. If caught, they would have to live with the curse of his name and actions. He must have considered this. He was a sober and generally intelligent guy. He didn't live in isolation in dark, dirty poster filled rooms and write on walls and a journal over and over his hate for his target and how they "had to die." The enigma of Lee Harvey Oswald is almost haunting.

Ha! GREAT pic Doug!

The limo slowing to close to if not a stop is so clearly visible in the video clip above. You can see Greer turned 180 backwards and looking straight at JFK after he is hit the first time ( as well as Connally ) and slumping leftward toward Jackie. Then Greer is "still" looking back at JFK when he is hit again in the head and his skull is obliterated. A split second after, a shocked Greer turns back to face frontward and begin the acceleration. During Greer's 180 turn backward ( again so obvious) you see the Limo slow almost to a stop ( Jackie stated it did stop) and in the middle of this slowdown is when JFK is hit in the head. What's the debate? In the video clip above there is "no question" as to Greer's 180 turn backward to see JFK hit in the head. And no question as to the limo slowing down while he did so. As I have stated several times, when a driver of a car turns his or her's upper body ( shoulders and head ) 180 degrees backward they would instinctively let up on the accelerator while doing so. In my 50 years of driving I've never not done this myself, In another video of the same scene, you also see the background grass on the drivers side and those standing on it going by at a speed that does look like at least 10 MPH. But as Greer turns back to look at JFK in the back seat, that background visual of the grass movement slows to almost a stop. It's all so clear imo.

Great shot. Thanks.

Absolutely true. 90% of the American public from 1963 to 1991 probably read no more than an occasional once a year article or viewed a major media documentary about the JFK assassination, usually published or shown on or around the anniversary date of November 22nd. For many reasons this was so ( I discuss the media reason below ) and even more so today when even on the anniversary date, there is hardly a mention of the JFK assass. in any print or broadcast media anymore. I would guess that the remaining 10% in those decades "may" have read more about the event than a yearly article, perhaps even read a book on the subject as well as viewing a documentary and/or tuned into one or more JFK event related radio interview programs. The night time Coast To Coast Am radio talk show comes to mind. With less than .001% doing the kind of research effort James Di cites in qualifying someone as a truly educated JFK assassination expert. But the JFK low interest 90% numbers in the U.S. definitely changed in 1991 when millions of them flocked to movie theaters to watch Oliver Stone's blockbuster, major Hollywood actor studded film "JFK" about the JFK assassination. With his film "JFK" Stone broke through the main media JFK assassination silence, obfuscation and resulting public apathy wall. His film "JFK" was so powerfully dramatic and well done, even though a notable amount of it's content was admittedly not based 100% on documented facts, it had a massive effect on the national psyche regards this event in our modern history. It spawned a new public interest movement to investigate again the JFK event as a possible conspiracy that was so widespread it resulted in the JFK assassination act and the ARRB. That's an amazingly powerful and society effecting legacy for Roger Stone and his film JFK. To an unprecedented degree in our film history imo.

Josh, debates about biased credibility aside, the video was extremely thought provoking imo. Oswald's actual words in letter's to his brother from his initial defection time in Russia as well as his dairy entries over the years there and specifically Minsk are so contradictory and changing he comes across as extremely immature and confused. He was just 20 years old when he took on this strange sojourn. Heck, at that age, I too was confusedly and unsurely back and forth about political, social and even personal value judgements in every area of my life. Yet, then later in 1963 New Orleans, Oswald makes public statements that tend to swing back to his previous first defecting angst about American political system values, versus Cuban? Oswald's politically minded actions, words, travel and his family and work relationships in his brief 24 year long life are so contrary in nature you cannot figure him out at all. To such a degree it spawns logical and strong suspicion that he is either pathologically mentally and/or emotionally unbalanced or this confusing enigma persona is a purposely contrived creation.

That is weird RB. Green grass under Hill's feet where there should be grey asphalt pavement? Could it be explained innocuously as some type of color bleed in the original processing of the film? Also, a questioning thought or two about the debated points of impact verses blowouts - right side front and right side back? Closest Grassy Knoll curb standing eye witness Bill Newman described in at least one filmed interview how it looked to him like JFK's right side ear blew off with the head shot. I thought I remember one blown up frame in the Z film that does indeed show a large "flap" of JFK's skull bone ( inches across ) blowing out at that area just above his right ear. I assume however that the flap did not totally separate from the rest of the skull. That it remained attached to the point that it could be physically placed back in place? X-rays of JFK's entire skull show massive obliteration with numerous skull fractures from front to back. Reports have claimed that some bone fragments from JFK's skull did get blown off and away. Didn't someone find one in the street just behind the limo head shot location on Elm? And perhaps a small piece or two in the back seat area? And/or maybe Jackie jumping up onto the back of the limo just a split second after JFK was hit in the head to perhaps retrieve either skull or brain matter on the trunk hood as well? I have wondered if a high caliber bullet entering JFK's head from the upper right back could have obliterated that section of skull so powerfully that it caused actual bone separation from that point of impact area? Whatever, JFK's brain matter was so completely macerated ( especially in the cerebellum area?) a noticeable amount of it oozed out of that upper backside hole as stated by Parkland doctors in later recollections. Jackie held a chunk of her husband's brain in her hand as well. If brain matter was so macerated it was oozing out of the back of JFK skull ( but not the area above the right ear ) it logically indicates tremendous internal brain trauma in that area. Meaning a bullet traversing through it? Would a bullet entering JFK's right front skull side take a track straight back like that? Bethesda pathologist Commander James Humes reportedly said in one of his hearing interviews that JFK's brain seemingly just fell out into his hands. Seeing that flap of skull bone blowing out above JFK's right ear seems to me to be an exit injury. But, again, like thousands of others sharing Z film observation thoughts on the visuals, I am totally uneducated in such bullet impact injury to skull bone.

WATCH LATER ADD TO QUEUE Killing Oswald 10K views3 months ago e2 films From the director of RFK Must Die, Killing Oswald explores the mystery of how and why John F. Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald ...

W. Parnell ... you want to change our minds regards our believing there was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination? You'd have to convincingly counter point by point hundreds and hundreds of conspiracy suggesting facts, testimonies, documents and events that seem stronger in substance, logic and even common sense than the LN position. Good luck. The second I witnessed Jack Ruby pop out of the press line in the basement of the Dallas PD building to shoot and kill Lee Harvey Oswald live on national TV the morning of 11,24,1963 ( while Oswald was handcuffed to 2 policemen and with 70 other armed security personnel in the building) every part of me sensed there was a conspiracy involved in the entire affair. To this day, Ruby's extraordinarily improbable access to and assassination actions against Oswald that morning is still the single most convincing event that suggest a conspiracy in my mind. No book, article, interview or blog presenting a different scenario has ever been strong enough in logic, facts or even common sense to counter my original and still held belief that it was a conspiracy, especially the killing of Oswald ( the most threatened criminal suspect in American history ) right inside the Dallas PD building amongst 70 armed and highest security alert minded personnel. With the Sylvia and Annie Odio episode being right up there as well.

Len O mentioned that some of Prouty's boxes contained information so secret sensitive he was afraid to risk taking them over the border. Is this ominous expose above one of those secrets? He also mention Prouty's wife expressing concern, even death risks regards some of the things her late husband knew about? If the MO you mentioned Jim Di regards the agency wanting to get rid of somebody here in the states with a poisoning then a coverup involving listing the cause of death other than poisoning is true...Dear God! How diabolical. What does that tell us about how out of oversight and abuse of power control they were? Sounds like some organized crime outfit. Also, by mentioning one of these death cause manipulation "panels" being in New Orleans...are you suggesting David Ferrie's death may have been one of these controlled killings?

Agree. And if there are "fence sitters," by definition of that term alone, they must logically have at least "some" open mindedness about a conspiracy to be in that category. Same with those in the "silent majority." It would be irrational for any repeat silent majority visitors to this forum to be "locked in" lone nut true believers. Locked in LN types feel any looking at, study or debate of the issue is a waste of their time and energy. A rational mind set on their part. Of course there is a sky full of alternate conspiracy theory chaff in the JFK truth research news coverage world. Has been for over 50 years. As forum member WN recently posted, this is by design. That is a classic PSYOP confusing, diluting, dissipating, distracting and dividing MO. This largely consists of social exclusion fear inducing with the constant referencing of JFK conspiracy believers ( even those considering the possibility of a conspiracy ) with social reject boogie man labels such as emotionally unstable loons, nut cases, buffs, crazies, etc. Barely one step removed from wild eyed manic homeless street corner yellers and exaggerated flailing arm and leg kicking martial art performers. With constant access inclusion into the largest media stage coverage realm, this stuff works! It's used ( successfully ) to do the same diluting, demeaning and confusing of other areas of conspiracy belief such as UFO's, 9-11, Bigfoot, etc. Remember how Arizona's Governor Fife Symington immediately used his overriding access to main stream media to turn the March 13th, 1997 Phoenix lights UFO event into a full coverage, believer demeaning TV news conference laugh fest, complete with a monster get up wearing person walking onto the news conference stage area while he was speaking? Symington later recanted the whole affair was a social exclusion and demeaning label fear planting set up. Making fun of those who witnessed the event and didn't believe the government line that the object seen was of some innocuous origin such as flares. With the JFK event, ridiculous explanation distraction stories that make it to national news wire and coverage release ( and shouldn't ) are just as suspect. Someone in the follow up car accidently did JFK. Driver Greer did JFK. A storm gutter shot did JFK. The Mafia and/or Charles Harrelson or James Files did JFK. Jim Garrison was an attention seeking loon and pinball machine payoff accepting crook to boot. These crazy JFK conspiracy chaff stories ( and so many more like them) got NATIONAL COVERAGE! And not just "National Enquirer" headlines coverage, but NBC specials and CBS's "60 Minutes" to boot! To make that happen takes influence well beyond the average American's and JFK conspiracy believer's wallet and home office rolodex.

Listening to the entire broadcast right now. As always fascinating, enlightening and with great humor to boot. Amazing that I am accessing this via the links posted here on the Forum.

Thank you so much DR.

Jim D is on BOR tonight? How do I find this broadcast on my radio here on the California Coast 125 miles South of SF? Siezant's posts on this thread are what a RAND Corporation analyst dubbed a "firehose of falsehoods." It's a propaganda technique of flooding media with so many falsehoods that it is difficult to track and respond to all of them.

One could not find anything close to the number of seriously intriguing side stories connected to and involving the actual shooters in almost every other high power profile U.S. assassination attempts since the 1960's as there have been reported with Lee Harvey Oswald and those he interacted with both before and in the year leading up to 11,22,1963. Sirhan Sirhan, James Earl Ray, Arthur Bremmer, John Hinkley Jr. ( although his family was Bush family friends ) Mark David Chapman, Squeaky Fromme, none of their personal life stories come close to the intrigue of Lee Harvey Oswald's. Again, throw in Jack Ruby and Marina Oswald and their background stories as well. After reading and studying just 1/10th of the intrigue connected encounter stories involving Lee Oswald in his brief 24 year long life ( versus so many less with those other shooters ) one is forced to consider his alleged actions and charges regarding JFK and Dallas PD J.D. Tippit with logically more rational conspiratorial suspicion. How can anyone pretend or rationalize that all these suspicion suggesting side story events and engagements connected to Oswald are all just hyperinflated coincidences and mean nothing in the larger picture story and the doubting of the WC lone nut -just seeking attention- Oswald / JFK conclusion? The list of Oswald suspicious character connected interaction side stories in his background and especially in the last year of his life are so numerous it's laughably absurd. For someone supposedly being on the extreme end of the quiet, reserved, non-communicative and secretive loner personality spectrum, Oswald had as much social interaction as most extroverts. Just in his New Orleans time alone Oswald interacted with: Some say David Ferrie but for sure Dean Andrews, Carlos Bringuier, co-leaflet passers, TV and radio crews, FBI agents, several residents in a strange side trip to Clinton, Louisiana, possibly David and Anna Lewis, Reilly Coffee company workers and supposedly others at David Ferry's apartment, a sit down in one downtown Cuban covert activity hot spot bar, etc.. Supposedly loner and bookworm Oswald didn't while away his unemployed NO time sitting at home in his apartment or in a library back room cubby hole reading by himself. He got out there in the public and made contact and noise. One of the main reasons the JFK assassination event begs conspiracy consideration so much more than most other U.S. assassination events imo, are the absurdly large number of suspiciously provocative side stories and characters connected to Oswald, especially from the time of his Marine enlistment and service, through his defection to the Soviet Union and his marriage to a secret police colonel's niece Marina Prusokova and upon his return to the U.S., especially during his 1963 time in New Orleans. Just a few of these intriguing side story engagements of Oswald's: Infamous covert agent character Gerry Patrick Hemming claimed to have interacted with Oswald in Japan. Oswald studies Russian language for years. The entire Russian defection affair. In New Orleans contact with Dean Andrews ( for sure ) and possibly David Ferrie and even Clay Shaw? Odd civil then confrontational contact with expatriate Cuban community leader Carlos Bringuier. Camp Street address leaflet passing, TV and radio appearances, FBI visit requests. Clinton, Louisiana affair. Trip to Mexico. Yes, no? In Dallas, the De Mohrenchildts and other white Russian emigres. Sylvia and Angie Odio encounter General Walker shooting incident. The Paines and one-on-one talks with Michael Paine Back Yard photos. Secret alias's and mailing addresses. One could list 100 more such strange doings and interaction stories. Oswald did more odd international traveling and engaged in more unusual activities and dealt with more intriguing characters in his short 24 years than 90% of so-called average people do in a 70 year lifetime. Yet, all this proven fact extraordinary travel, activity and strange character contact is supposed to mean nothing in the final assessment of his alleged actions during the last two days of his life? In totality it's this incredibly huge number side story aspect to Oswald and his life before 11,22,1963 that "forces" a rational person to consider much more to the JFK event story than simply a poor, angry and frustrated bus taking, cheapest single room only rent affording, minimum wage book order filler just getting incredibly lucky with a chance at finally making a name for himself in American and world history. Something more worthy to leave to his beloved daughter's memory of him than that of a just no count, dead beat loser dad? Please. If any major event in modern history begs for conspiracy consideration it is the JFK assassination. Based on just one third of the huge number of suspiciously intriguing side stories connected to the main characters involved ( Oswald especially ) it is definitely more rational to consider a conspiracy regards the JFK event than not. In my opinion anyway.