John Butler

James, What's the possibility of Titovets being KGB? Many think Oswald's best buds was monitoring him for the KGB. Supposedly, 30 agents, many close to Oswald, were monitoring him. They had peepholes into his apartment. There were listening devices. They even recorded sex talk between Marina and Oswald. Wonder if that was in Russian? This idea of Oswalds speaking ability was posted here before in: Basically, according to this post Armstrong says Oswald doesn't speak Russian or speak Russian very well and Titovets and others he mentions said he spoke only Russian to people in the Minsk area. And, he spoke well. He mentions several instances of contradiction of what Armstrong has in Harvey and Lee. PS It would be interesting if someone analyzed the first part of the tape with Oswald speaking with the last part of the tape with Oswald speaking. Has anyone done that?

The Oswald at the first part of the tape doesn't sound like the Oswald at the second part of the tape. The Oswald at the second part of the tape sounds like the TV New Orleans Oswald (Harvey). First part fake? The Oswald Shakespeare reader doesn't sound like the Oswald in the second part. Anyone else hear that or have I gone astray? I have re-listened to this video 3 times. I have run it through video and voice enhancing software and still hear a difference.

This photo shows the area that Zapruder would have filmed from the other side of the street as recorded by Wilma Bond. Notice that any tree or shrub does not conceal something from Zapruder’s camera. He is in front of the small tree or shrub and it is behind the retaining wall and would not block his camera view. I have drawn a red line that indicates this is an area that Zapruder could film. It covers the steps. In order to view the p. limo and Mary Moorman and the Babuska Lady (which he doesn’t) we should see the people on the steps. OBTW, this photo is a fraud from the Zapruder view point. So, generally people make points from fraudulent material. It’s wise to check out every detail and measure those against other films and photos. Mannikin Row: Bronson shows a small group of people from Mannikin Row separated from the others by a wide measure. Some claim this is due to camera angles. If so, then the evidence from Betzner and Willis is also due to camera angles. Nonsense. Compare the following: Brownson: Betzner: This is not the same as Bronson: Willis: This group of Mannikin Row is not the same as Bronson. I believe no one had any quibbles about the red lines showing Zapruder’s filming area. Zapruder 151 for comparison of Mannikin Row: I found this as I was looking for a good shot of Manniken Row. I can't recall whether I did this or someone else. Must have been me when I was exploring how the Zapruder film was made. John Costello said the film was technically perfect for almost all of it. I was trying to figure out how the film could be altered and still be technically perfect. My notion was that the contents of the passenger compartment of the p. limo was blacked out and contents from the Zapruder Gap imagery was placed in the passenger compart of the p. limo in frames after the gap. What did the Hawkeye works fellow Dino say. Just about anything can be done in photo editing. It's not a novel idea. This can be seen (figures in the passenger car on Houston are blacked out) in the Elsie Dorman film for most of the ride down Houston Street.

Sandy, It is basically the same. There are very minor differences. I generally defer to Jim since he has more experience with the story and his memory is often better than mine. Currently I am exploring a significant difference on which Oswald was in Russia first and whether both were there at sometime. And, it is a significant difference. Basically, there is unaccounted time for Lee Oswald from the fall of 1959 to the fall of 1960. The three references for this period has Lee Oswald in Europe and Russia. If this proves to be valid then our notions would diverge. If not then there is no difference. By exploring this idea I am challenging the evidence that says Harvey Oswald is in Russia first and alone. What evidence is there for this? Discarding the photographic record, since Jim and James say this is not reliable, then what evidence is there for Harvey Oswald to be there first? Harvey Oswald's autopsy report mentions he has suicide scars on his left wrist and forearm. This is in accord with the story of Harvey in Russia cutting his wrist. A DPD photo shows Harvey with a suicide scar on his right wrist that is not mentioned in the autopsy report. I really don't know what to think of that except it might taint the evidence of suicide scars. The belief that Harvey Oswald was there first I think comes from his language ability and the notion this would make him more eligible to be there instead of Lee Oswald. I point out that Lee had superior military knowledge than Harvey. Harvey spent a year in New Orleans AWOL while Lee spent that year at the CIA's top post in the orient with all kinds of super secret projects going on there.. Outside of the suicide scar and this belief what else is there? There is signatures and handwriting analysis. But, I think that is argued to be valid or not valid by some. Do we just assume it is Harvey and not Lee? If I am wrong on this then point out what evidence says that Harvey Oswald was first and alone in the Soviet Union during his defection. I think I make a good point about KGB interrogations. I think I bring up evidence that at least questions the idea that Harvey was first. But, as I wrote in response to Jim there is no real evidence for either. If there is please point it out.

Jim, There is no real proof for either Harvey or Lee as first into Russia, or for both being there at one time.. It could have been either one, or both early on in late 1959 and early 1960. Your basing you belief on Harvey based on his language ability. And, as a spy/infiltrator he would be the most likely to be there first. Here's my notes on conclusions on the issue. There is an important question that has never been fully answered. Why did Harvey take a ship to Europe? Force of habit? Lee flies to Europe on a MATS flight in Oct., 1959 even after he was discharged in March, 1959. Think about where Lee was from the fall of 1959 to the fall of 1960. Notes on Harvey and Lee in Russia KGB interrogation techniques: https://kgbespionagemuseum.org/nkvd-interrogation-instruction/ KGB interrogation chemical usage: https://kgbespionagemuseum.org/nkvd-inquisitor-tools/ Conclusion: Neither Harvey or Lee would have been able to fool KGB interrogators. And, as a defector Oswald would be interrogated extensively until the Russians were satisfied. Harvey would not be able to hide his Russian language ability. Nor would he be able to hide his training in resisting interrogation. Captain Fritz picked up on that after just a few hours of questioning in Dallas. That would me more and extensive interrogation. The period of time between Oct. 31, 1959 and November 13, 1959 is a period that not much is known about what Oswald was doing. The US Embassy tried to send a letter to Oswald during this period and failed. Where was Oswald? He could have been in the Lubyanka entertaining the Russians.. Radar and Electronic Aviation Experience of Harvey and Lee: Harvey: Jacksonville. Fl- May 2, 1957 - the Naval Air Technical Training Center in Jacksonville, FL. This is for the Marine Corps Aviation Electronics School. Memphis, Tn- July 7, 1957- Aviation electronics- The date is hard to read and could be the 11th. This is for the Aircraft Control and Warning Operator Course AWOL in New Orleans from September, 1957 to August, 1958. Harvey serves as a Marine Radar Operator from August, 1958 to September, 1959. His service areas were Ping Tung, Taiwan, Iwakuni, Japan, and Santa, Ana, CA starting in Oct. 31, 1958. Harvey’s radar operation and training experience consisted of two training classes and approximately a year service as a radar operator. Actually, his discharge papers said his MOS was a radio operator not a radar operator. He was originally trained as a radio operator. That was his military occupation specialty. He did not work in aircraft maintenance and repair. It is possible that the received additional training, but there are no records of such training. He does say he had two radar training classes with the US Army in a letter. He would have knowledge of Marine codes, procedures, and other military knowledge. He would not have knowledge of the U2 that Lee would have. Harvey’s training and postings to secret military bases was not as extensive as Lee’s experiences. However, Harvey's knowledge was less extensive than Lee's knowledge, it would still be valuable to the Russians. Lee: Fall 1956, PFC Lee Oswald is at El Toro working in aviation maintenance and repair with SGT Ransberger. This is something Harvey could not have done by entering the Marines in Oct., 1956. 18 March, 1957 to 3 May, 1957. This was for the Aviation Electronics Operator class. The MOS 6741 is related to Aviation Electronics Operator. May, 1957 to 19 June, 1957-Biloxi, MS. This is for the Aircraft Control and Warning Operator Course August-September, 19570 Mar Corp Air Base, El Toro, CA, and ship to Atsugi, Japan from El Toro From July 9, 1957 to November 15, 1958 Lee was at El Toro, Ca, ship to japan, Atsugi, Japan, assignment to the Phillipines and the South China seas. Return to Atsugi, Japan and then later back to El Toro, Ca. The time overseas is about one and a half years. Note on Atsugi, Japan: The Atsugi Naval Air Station was the largest and most secret in the Marine Corps. It was the home of the intelligence forces in Asia. It was responsible for the defense of Central Japan. The Office of Naval Intelligence had a unit stationed there. The Air Force did also. A large CIA operation of about 1,000 people were stationed at Atsugi. They were known as the Joint Technical Advisory Group. Another large CIA operation was the U2 spy plane operation. The maintenance crews for the U2 plane stayed in the same barracks, Barracks 5, as Oswald and the Marine radar operators. Although not conclusive, this could have offered Lee Oswald intimate knowledge of how the U2 worked and was maintained. For someone working in intelligence it would have been an easy task to befriend one or more of the U2 maintenance crew and obtain secret and valuable information. The Defense Nuclear Agency had a unit there called METO. This unit was an atomic bomb assembly unit. It was a very much more than a top-secret operation. Some believe this was the important information that Lee Oswald had to offer the Soviets. Korean village north of the base. One of the strangest things to be found at Atsugi was a Korean village north of the base. This was a unit to train Korean infiltrators for eventual infiltration of North Korea. December, 1958, pre-Dec. 22: Harvey and Lee mentioned Lee Oswald was assigned for a short period of time in December, 1958 to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, Area 2 (Lake Meade Marine base north of Las Vegas). Lake Mead Base was a storage and transfer area for nuclear weapons which were tested at the Nevada Test Site. This information would have been valuable to the Soviets. And, there were other Nellis complexes were in the area. This may have been for just a couple of days before Dec. 22, 1958 when he returned to the El Toro base. Or, it could have been longer depending on how he spent his leave. December, 1958, pre-Dec. 22, 1958: Lee Oswald was assigned for a short period of time in December, 1958 to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, Area 2 (Lake Meade Marine base north of Las Vegas). Lake Mead Base was a storage and transfer area for nuclear weapons which were tested at the Nevada Test Site. This information would have been valuable to the Soviets. And, there were other Nellis complexes were in the area housing the U2 and A12 spy planes. This may have been for just a couple of days before Dec. 22, 1958 when he returned to the El Toro base. Or, it could have been longer depending on how he spent his leave. From January 19, 1959 to January 23, 1959- Vincent AFB in Yuma, Arizona. Yuma Air Force Station (1956-1963) - A Cold War Air Force Radar Station first established in 1956 near Yuma, Yuma County, Arizona. Named Yuma Air Force Station after the location. This was a Strategic Air Command facility. Initially assigned a Permanent ID of SM-162, later a Sage ID of Z-162. This base was abandoned in 1963. What was Lee doing there? Conclusion: Who had more valuable intelligence information to temp the Soviets. From this listing above the answer would be Lee. As an example Lee Oswald had intelligence information of codes, procedures, protocols, equipment, etc on the Marines and the Navy from the US to the South Pacific and Japan. Lee had greater access to more restricted Top Secret bases than Harvey that had super-secret military equipment. Lee Oswald from March, 1959 discharge from Marines- Gorsky info March, 1959 Lee Oswald discharged from the Marines and is whereabouts is mostly unknown for 1959. Post January, 1959- William Huffman told the FBI that he saw Oswald "sometime after Castro came to power (January, 1959)." Oswald and four or five Cubans fueled a 43 foot Chris Craft diesel boat at his dock. Oswald telephoned a man named "Ruben" in Key West, who came to the dock and paid for the fuel. "Ruben" may have been Jack Ruby, who ran guns to Castro in the late 1950s from Florida and from a house in Kemah, Texas. Ruby's neighbors remember him well and remember his many weekend trips to Cuba in a 50 foot surplus military craft that was loaded with guns. (this could be after the March discharge) In June 19, 1959, Valentine Ashworth was a 29-year-old pilot affiliated with the "Cuban Raider Command" whose headquarters were in San Juan, Puerto Rico. He was awarded the rank of Captain and reported to Colonel Ramon Barquin and Colonel Martin Helena. In June, Ashworth roomed with Lee Oswald in New Orleans while the two men were trying to join Cuban exile groups. 8-17-1959- Miami- Mrs. Gladys Davis put on a considerable amount of weight after giving birth in April 1959. She was still having trouble getting into her old clothes in August when a friend of her husband's, a Cuban known as "Mexicano," visited her home at 700 Saldana Street in Coral Gables, Florida. "Mexicano," whose real name was Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo, was a Cuban exile who was residing at 2484 Northwest 29th St. in Miami.76 He was well known to the anti-Castro Cubans and identified by Cuban refugee Rene Carballo as the head of one of the training camps at Lake Ponchartrain, LA. 77 Mrs. Davis said her husband, Martinez Malo, often brought numerous Cubans to their residence. On one occasion, when "Mexicano" came to her home looking for her husband, he was accompanied by Lee Oswald. (again this could be after March, 1959 discharge of Lee) 9-12-1959- Alleged hunting trip with Lee Oswald at the Mercer Farm. (This is Harvey. Lee could not fit the description “home on leave” at any time reference for this photo) 9-16-1959- Robert says Lee left for New Orleans. (actually Harvey) Conclusion: To sum up, Lee Oswald is discharged from the Marines in March, 1959. Most of the period after his discharge in 1959 is unknown for his whereabouts and activities. There are three days out of 6 months listed above. During the period March, 1959 to about October, 1959 very little is known about Lee’s activities. He seems to be working for about 6 months after March, 1959 with anti-Castro forces. Details of where Lee is drop off after the fall of 1959. On the other hand, Harvey is well accounted for until the fall and his discharge. And, presumably into Russia and his stay there. Lee in Europe in Oct.-Nov. 1959 to possibly Oct., 1960 or the late fall John Pic Warren Commission Hearing On Sunday, November 1, John Pic's (and LEE Oswald's) cousin, Marilyn Murret visited Pic and his family at Tachikawa Air Base in Japan. Pic told the Warren Commission, "In approximately Oct-Nov, early November, the end of October 1959 (probably October 25) she called me up at the hospital......and I invited her out to the house the next weekend. She visited us on Sunday (Nov. 1), I believe...she talked about the family, and everything....she talked about LEE....she said, 'Do you know that LEE is is in Europe?" Somewhat surprised Pic said, "No, I don't know that." Steenbarger Interview HSCA 1978- MATS Flight to Germany at mid-October 1959. Two Oswalds in Europe in mid-October 1959? Finland is a short distance from Germany. Jim Rizzuto (Steven H. Landesberg, the student) said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg, the actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956. This is not possible unless Lee joins the Marines in about March, 1956 at age 16. Essentially, Rizzuto said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg (actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956. After his Marine service he kept in touch with L’eandes by post card. L’eandes sent post cards from Stockholm, Leningrad, and Moscow in 1960. L’eandes was accompanied by Lee Harvey Oswald and Earl Perry in their journeys around Europe and Russia in 1960. Rizzuto was told by L’eandes that Oswald was back in the states and had gone to Texas. 10-1-1960- Marita Lorenz testimony for this time period: Mr. Fithian. "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of Lee Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960. Marita Lorenz. "Yes." She said this was in the late fall of 1960. Marita Lorenz is the first event we know of for Lee in the US in 1960 in the later fall. Conclusion: To sum up we don’t know where Lee was from the fall of 1959 to the fall of 1960. The only information on Lee’s activities for late 1959 and to the fall of 1960 has him in Europe and Russia. He may have been there for a year. If Leandes can be believed he sent post cards from Leningrad and Moscow. Language Abilitly: Lee Oswald did not speak Russian at all or very little. He was not known for doing this in the Marines. Harvey Oswald was said to speak Russian expertly. He is known for speaking Russian well and reading Russian books and newspapers while in the military. There are episodes from witness testimony that have Oswald in Russia as a bumbling American who cannot or is unwilling to learn the Russian language. This is early on before the advent of Marina Oswald. About the time Marina Oswald shows up we find Oswald in Russia has a great knowledge of Russia and folks note that he speaks with a Polish or Baltic accent. At least Marina thinks so. There are those that say Harvey Oswald hid his knowledge of Russian and was able to fool the KGB and a language instructor with his hidden Russian knowledge. I don't think so. Conclusion: The Oswald that couldn’t or wouldn’t speak Russian is Lee Oswald. And, the Oswald that could was Harvey Oswald. The Oswald who couldn’t speak Russian well was not Harvey trying to hide his language abilities. His apartment was bugged and 30 KGB operatives were assigned to watch him. It would be hard not to make mistakes in over a two year period. Besides they probably knew from the beginning. The Russians knew who he was and what he was, but were willing to cooperate to get his extensive military knowledge learned during his 3 year service. The Russians (contrary to Dick Helms) knew who he was and what he was far better than we who don't.

Yes. But, where was she? I been kicked around pretty good for saying that Hill Exhibit No. 5 needs to be looked at and taken as valid. Otherwise, why would Arlen Specter mark it up as Top Secret and it vanishes from the public for years until I believe the ARRB. I found this in a Walt Brown book. He didn't know what to make of it. I do. Combined with Mary Moorman's statements, it contradicts everything about Zapruder. I'm not going to get into another debate about Jean Hill and Mary Moorman. Been there done that. I wasn't able to convince anyone on my views of this. Or, maybe just a few.

I don't think that the originators of the Oswald Project had a formal objective in the beginning. Allen Dulles, Frank Wisner, James Angleton, Richard Helms, and others in the origination and planning of this scheme did not have a particular intelligence task in mind. They just had a desire to strike at the new and upcoming enemy after WWII. Then when the boys were teenagers the knowledge that the U2 would eventually be shot down gave rise to the military experience and training of Harvey and Lee. This occasioned a way to use the defector program in a meaningful way. Use the U2 in some scheme to disrupt the Russians.

Jim, There is another thing to consider when talking about who went into Russia first, Harvey or Lee. This is the elephant in the room. No one that I have read talks extensively about that most brutal and inhumane agency, the KGB. I've just assumed that most people knew about the KGB and interrogation techniques. Here are a couple of examples of the KGB and their methods: KGB interrogation techniques: https://kgbespionagemuseum.org/nkvd-interrogation-instruction/ KGB interrogation chemical usage: https://kgbespionagemuseum.org/nkvd-inquisitor-tools/ Let's assume Lee Oswald went into Russia first. Would he have been able to keep any secrets from the KGB? Even though he may have had the rumored MK-Ultra treatments, I don't think he could have kept anything back from the Russians. They had decades of experience torturing/interrogating perhaps hundreds of thousands of people. Their experience and techniques in interrogation were vast. I don't think Lee could have remained unbroken. Lee as an infiltrator/defector would have been told by his handlers cooperate fully and enthusiastically. Present yourself as pro-communist with information vital and necessary for their defense (his radar info, aviation electronic knowledge, and the U2 info). What did Lee have to offer the Russians? What was his reason for going there? How could he convince them, a most paranoid group, he was not an American spy? These are vital questions in the story of Harvey and Lee. Now, let's assume Harvey was first into the Soviet Union. Could he hide his language abilities from the KGB. I don't think so. I don't think he would have been able to hide anything. He would have been broken by the KGB. Or, if they couldn't they would have known he was a trained agent and suspected like Captain Fritz he had been trained in interrogation techniques and would therefore be a spy. We can ask the same questions of Harvey that we have asked of Lee? There is a way for Harvey to be acceptable to the Russians. That is he would be totally honest with his background. He would confess that he was an American agent. Give up his background as a East European immigrant who knew Russian from his childhood. He would tell them of the Oswald Project and his years of being trained to be a defector. He would offer willingly everything he knew about US intelligence, the Oswald Project, the U2, Atsugi, Japan (the greatest CIA outpost in Asia) and all of the Marine military info he had. They would have gotten this out of him anyway. His hope would be to convince them he was a disaffected American who had been used ruthlessly by American intelligence agencies since he was a child. He would have to convince the Russians that he hated America, his abuse there as an Oswald Project member, his early rebellion, and later plan to make it to a better place in the Soviet Union. I don't think US intelligence people would think that they could pull the wool over the eyes of the Russians. Whoever went first, Harvey or Lee, would give up any and everything they knew to Russian interrogation. They really didn't need defectors to Russia on such a low level. They already had higher level intelligence being delivered to them from Russian traitors and informants. So, the marginal intelligence of living in Minsk or some other area, IMO, was not the reason for the defection of Oswald. I don't think this scenario has been fully explored. We know the Russians accepted Oswald. But, we don't really know why?

I've heard this argument before made by others. Rejected it then and now again. There are 19 people in the Zapruder film between the lamppost of the TSBD and the Stemmons sign. Triangulation or not they don't show up in Bronson. A small group perhaps, but not the 19. Bronson has the Umbrella Man and partner on the east side of the Stemmons sign at the same time that Zapruder has them on the west side of Stemmons. That is if it is the same moment as the woman clapping her hands, etc. In Mannikin Row people are standing shoulder to shoulder covering a distance of approximately 40 feet from the lamppost at the SW corner of the TSBD to the Stemmons sign. You do not see that in Bronson. Elements of films like Zapruder and Bronson, IMO, were used to make the Zapruder film or from films from the rear and very much like Zapruder. At the ARRB hearings a fellow testified that he had been told there were a large group perhaps 50 military camera men there taking film. There are many unknown camera people in Dealey Plaza that didn't make the public view. There's the lamppost directly behind and to the right of McBride. Where are the people shown in Zapruder? The Zapruder Gap was about 20-21 seconds in length. There is not enough time for that group of 19 people to assemble between the lamppost and the sign. You can see the Croft group across the street from the SW corner of Houston and Elm, but not the Mannikin Row group. There are now 82 witnesses who say something different. This is not what they saw or heard. As far as Mary Moorman and Jean Hill, I have reservations on what they said and saw. This gets me in big trouble with certain other members of the forum. You have to give Mary Moorman credit. She was consistent in her testimony over the years and varied very little in what she said. I once saw a film and have not been able to remember or find again the film that Mary said she was not wearing white slacks. This is consistent with one photo of Mary in Dealey Plaza. One of the troubling things about Mary's testimony, if I am remembering correctly, is she said the head shot was the first shot. All other shots came afterward. She said there was four shots. She stuck to this story in later times. A cousin of hers, Warren Burroughs, was shot in the head after he said the man at the Tippit shooting was not Oswald. He changed his mind after the shooting. Mary was a police groupie or at least motorbike groupie. She had friends in the police departments she went to school with. They probably warned her up front what to say and agree to in her statements. She was probably warned of the consequences. It has been said that the Dallas Police and the County Police were the most murderous corrupt city/county police in the country. Jean Hill did not wear slacks either. There is film of her bare legs. You can not find a Dallas Sheriff's Office film or photo that shows the pair from the waist down. That's very suspicious and probably not due to morality at that time. Jean Hill, on the other hand, changed her testimony several times. She can't be counted as a reliable witness. So, the one piece of, what I consider very valuable, evidence I have can't be counted as that valuable. This is Hill Exhibit No. 5. On this map Hill described Moorman's and her location is on the SW corner of Houston and Elm. Arlen Specter classified that map he drew as Top Secret and it vanished from the public and remained hidden I believe until the 90s and the ARRB. Jean Hill's first statement to the Sheriff's Office was the same as Mary Moorman's statement. She said she just signed it without reading it. She later repudiated that statement. Then she later changed what she said in her Warren Commission hearing with Arlen Specter. She fought with Specter to get the knowledge out that she was on the SW corner. But, after death threats she said she was with Mary directly across from the Grassy Knoll. Almost everyone thinks she was an unreliable witness. Even the guy who ghost wrote her book. He didn't write what she had said earlier about location.

There is another interesting snippet of the Scott/Newman conversation. PDS is talking Harvey and Lee without mentioning it. When Marina said she had two husbands, she is talking about more than a bi-polar guy.

Jim, It's more like what John Newman said. It kind of surprised me. The man who followed the paper trail of Oswald in Mexico City said this: Could have been not there at all has been my opinion on Oswald and Mexico City all along. It has recently been cemented by the work of David Joseph. As far as Harvey and Lee in Russia, I'll have to think about all to the bits and pieces that make me conclude there is more to the story than just Harvey in Russia. I'll get back to you at a later date.

Jim, Is your theory is based mostly on an analysis of the photographs? No. As I have written several times before, the photographic evidence for Lee Oswald in quite weak and vague. As for the rest, I'm not certain I want to go through that again just to have it casually dismissed. Thanks for taking the time to make a comment.

Harvey had time to take Marina up to his old neighborhood, 77th and 2nd Ave, and show her around the old Hungarian communist neighborhood. Maybe even go over to the old communist club there.

I have to say this fits my biased interpretations of the Dynamic Duo in Russia and elsewhere.

I agree. Suppression could very well be the case. It might be interesting to list these missed witnesses or the ones that have only a March, 1964 FBI report. I have a feeling that something is here, but like so many things in this research one ends up going nowhere.

I don't know or recall this one. I do believe there was someone early on who said shooting in front of the TSBD. The HSCA thought the missed shot, the first one, was at Z 158. I stirred up a pretty good sized argument when I posted about Z 157 being an edited frame and fraudulent. There were a number of things in that argument that carried on to about z 161-ish. This is from an article from Max Holland and Johann Rush: "Any theory involving a first shot even as early as Z 150 faces an insurmountable problem. It directly contradicts the earwitness testimony of dozens of Dealey Plaza observers". That's true. But, there are other witnesses who say differently. At this point in time they are a lesser number and not the majority. IMO, using Holland is risky. I disagree with a number of points he makes in the article that quote comes from. So, I guess the earliest is the HSCA unless someone like Harold Weisman said something.

Where she has the first shot is also wrong with the official story. David Joseph, using Chris Davidson's Swan Song math, puts Z 190 at the corner of the TSBD. Anything prior to that is in front of the TSBD. OBTW, just looking at that thread makes my head hurt. But, still there are 77 witnesses I have found that say something different then the official story. There are 13 very close witnesses to the 6th floor within 40 feet of the Sniper's Nest. They are on the 3rd, 4th and 5th floor. Two of the witnesses maintain what they said concerning shots from directly above on the t6th floor. These were Bonnie Williams and Harold Norman. The other witnesses said something else. Junior Jarman said low and to the left (the Dal-Tex). Elsie Dorman said they came from the Court Records building. The others said the shots came from the west, mainly the Grassy Knoll. I run in to this a lot with many of my "original" thoughts. There is so much out there it is difficult to know and remember.

Mark, These two people would be in the area I call Mannikin Row. That is people between the lamppost just off the R L Thornton sign and the Stemmons sign. This area, Mannikin Row is about 10 feet off the SW corner of the TSBD. There are 19 people there in about a 40 foot space. Most claim that people like Dishong and Burney were in that group. Others name this person or that person as being there. Some witnesses claim to be in that area. Here's what I think. The group is totally fictitous. Here's my reasoning. This crowd cannot be seen in Mary Moorman's Polaroid of Glen McBride. They cannot be seen in the Bronson frame you show. That's the Stemmons sign by the Umbrella Man. It's like Howard Brennan sitting spot. If two or three films ok it then someone might say it could have some truth. The Umbrella Man is seen in several media presentations, so one can tentatively conclude he was there by the Stemmons sign.

Steve, It's my understanding that Oswald wrote that after he left Russia. I don't have a great memory anymore. I might be wrong. I've always seen the Collective as a spy report. Recall that Oswald was the first American that lived in Minsk. American tourists went there from time to time, but their were no permanent residents other than Oswald. I believe that Oswald was a dedicated spy whose task was to also set up pro-American spy networks, if possible. His main mission was to help down the U2. He began prepping for this mission at Atsugi, Japan with his involvement with Russian agents. Lee probably had a greater training in electronic aviation/radar operation then Harvey. Being watched by 30 KGB agents required the other half of the spy team to be there. That's why there is this sense of a dichotomy of Oswalds. There was the Oswald who didn't know Russian and was anti-communist, and Oswald, the Russian expert, who favored communism. I believe Harvey Oswald was what he said he was, a Marxist-Socialist, but not a Troskeyite. On the other hand, he could have pretended to that role. I also believed he was raised by Hungarian communists in New York. I've been toying with the notion that Minsk, with it's large Polish descended population, was the birth place of immigrant Harvey Oswald. It explains his knowledge of Russian and his Polish accent. It also explains his immigrant status and his saying my parents are dead and I do not have a brother or sister. During the rise of communism, Minsk was the center of resistance for White Russians. That's why Harvey, the Marxist-Socialist, was accepted readily by that community in Dallas. He could pretend he was Lee, the anti-communist or he was not a Marxist-Socialist in reality. Here is Harvey the anomalistic, anti-social loner. This loner business was a role that both Harvey and Lee played. Just as an aside they dressed alike. That shirt Harvey is wearing is seen in other photos and perhaps by Lee. Sorry about the quality of this photo. It is a magnified crop. Oswald had more acquaintances and social contacts then most people. Oswald the spy is accentuated by most of these people being in the spy business. This crowd in the first photo is part of the 30 KGB agents monitoring Oswald or are hangers on because he had money and he was an important part of the Minsk factory favored by the authorities. If you look closely at his "buds" they appear to be a non-trustworthy bunch. Also, Oswald was not sent to Minsk as a lowly factory worker. The was sent as a "regulator" of supervisor in the experimental shop. As he was a supervisor his pay indicates what worth and value he had to the Russians in the experimental shop. These people are either monitors or folks hanging around because he had money or was a boss at the factory.

From James Norwood on the Harvey and Lee site: "Shortly after Oswald began work in the Minsk factory, Comrade Libezin, the local Communist Party Secretary, approached a university-educated engineer named Stanislav Shushkevich with the task of tutoring Oswald in Russian, along with an eyewitness named Sasha Rubinchik, so that no single Soviet official would be left alone with Oswald. Shushkevich related to journalist Peter Savodnik that Oswald knew only a “few words, so it was impossible to discuss anything abstract, and he had trouble expressing anything that was not in the present tense.” [26] Mailer, who personally met with Shushkevich, recounts how the tutoring work progressed at a snail’s pace: "Lessons took place in a second-floor room after work....Shushkevich just worked on verbs, and occasionally tried to teach this American colloquial Russian....Their lessons proceeded without great enthusiasm, and Oswald found Russian difficult. He did get to a point where he could achieve understanding if Shushkevich spoke slowly, used gestures, wrote words on pieces of paper, and sometimes brought out a dictionary." [27] While polite and cooperative, Oswald was clearly not responding like a competent foreign language student. In a 2013 interview conducted on Radio Free Europe, Shushkevich vividly recalled one of the tutorials: “[Oswald] seemed to have very strong habits that weren't suitable for studying Russian -- especially with the accents in Russian words. I would teach him to say, ‘Ya DOO-ma-yu’ (‘I think’), but he insisted on saying, ‘Doo-MAH-yu.’ We would be going over the tenses, and he kept saying, ‘Ya Doo-MAH-yu.’ You see, I simply could not get him to say, ‘DOO-ma-yu.’” [28] In the end, Shushkevich was frustrated as an instructor because he could never understand why Oswald had come to the Soviet Union. Shushkevich informed Savodnik that Oswald’s presence in his country “did not make sense. He didn’t appear to know a lot. He didn’t appear to want to know a lot.” [29] But, it makes perfect sense if Oswald had been sent to the Soviet Union as a spy. In preparation for the 2013 interview, the Radio Free Europe reporter Pavel Butorin had studied Oswald’s essay entitled “The Collective” that was prepared in the United States after he returned from the Soviet Union. Butorin recognized that the report was so detailed about Soviet working and living conditions that “it’s as if he had been on a research mission here.” [30] In other words, Oswald was gathering intelligence about his nation’s greatest adversary during the Cold War. Savodnik learned that the KGB’s implicit goal in Shushkevich’s tutorials was “to see how much Russian Oswald really knew.” [31] If that was true, then Oswald was playing his role as a spy to a tee by concealing his skills in the Russian language while observing the landscape and making notes to be used in his future reports." Does this describe Harvey or Lee? Is it the American who couldn't learn Russian or the American who hid his language abilities successfully? Answer this question and I think you will have a greater understanding of the issue.

Mark, I don't think Dishong was overlooked or missed. Everybody at the TSBD was interviewed except Steve Wilson and that was done later. There are a number of TSBD employees who do not have a 11 22-23 63 interview. I am always suspicious when I don't see a DPD, Sheriff's Office, or FBI interview during that time for a witness. Often times all you find is a March, 1964 statement basically saying nothing. In Dishong's case we don't even have that. There were lists of TSBD employees available to the authorities that day.

Mark, It looks like I have to change what I said on June Dishong. Further research indicates I was wrong. She initially says she was 30 feet from the corner. She didn't specify which corner, the SE corner or the SW corner. I thought SE corner. But, on reading further into what she said the clearly was 30 feet past the SW corner which puts her in Mannikin Row. 20 feet from where she was standing puts the p. limo behind the Stemmons sign from Zapruder. This is in accordance with the official story when approximates distance are allowed for. The letter looks aged and the date says 11-22-63. This letter comes to light on CNN on 11 21 2003. It's home is at the 6th floor museum. This is the way one sum's up: Analysis: this letter, which was only discovered after Dishong’s death, sums up what would seem to be the majority view quite nicely: a first shot hit at 190 (when Kennedy stopped waving, and Jackie moved closer to him), followed by the head shot (when people started screaming and dropping to the ground), followed by a third shot. First shot hit 190. Last shot after the head shot. This letter awakens my paranoia. And, truthfully it doesn't take much for that to happen. Is this letter for real or fabricated? It is accord with the official story and not with what other witnesses (77) are saying. The FBI interviewed everyone in the TSBD sometime during the period Nov., 1963 to March, 1964. Where is June Dishong's DPD statement, Sheriff's Office statement, and FBI statement? Where is her Warren Commission testimony? Why since she "sums up what would seem to be the majority view quite nicely" wasn't she interviewed and testimony used? She would be a star witness for the FBI or Warrren Commission. The nonsense she was not recognized or missed by the authorities is just that, nonsense. Something smells here. Based on the provenance and what is being said one is compelled to say this is real evidence. But, due to paranoia and other conflicting evidence I have to reserve major doubts that seriously challenge this letter's authenticity.

Mark, Thanks for notifying me on June Dishong. What she says is a bit different from others about the motorbikes, shots, effects of the shots, sequences, and location from many others. I immediately keyed in on her location and where she said the p. limo was when shots were heard. June makes 78 witnesses saying shooting occurs in front of the TSBD. I am looking at what others say on where she was located. They place her in Mannikin Row near the Stemmons sign. That is not what she said. I was reading fiction the other day and the author made the comment that a backfire sounds like a backfire and not a gunshot. In his opinion gunshots sound like gunshots not firecrackers or backfires. I thought about that and came to the conclusion that maybe he was right. I suspect people who are familiar with gunfire from the military, hunting, or target practicing would recognize gun fire easier then one who has limited experience with gun shots. As I recall Jackie Kennedy's statement, she said the motorbikes were continually backfiring due to the slow pace. So, I suspect this gunfire/backfire/fire cracker confusion may he part of the reason folks are saying different things. Their is also echoes to consider. But, as you say deliberate corruption by the FBI is something one has to consider. In my second run through on your list I am currently in the Cs. I came across Rose Clark. She said she was in Judge King's court room with Lillian Mooneyham and Jeanette Hooker. They heard 3 shots while in that court room. Subsequent testimony by Mooneyham and Hooker begin to change what Clark said. I wrote this little review. I would like to get your opinion on. I think this is a fine example of FBI changing witness statements to meet the official story. What Rose Clark said was definitely not the official story. These 3 witnesses made statements on January 10, 1964. Dallas County Courthouse and Rose Clark, Lillian Mooneyham, and Jeanette E Hooker Rose Clark said she viewed the motorcade from the 2nd floor of the new courthouse on Main and Houston. She said she viewed the motorcade with Lillian Mooneyham and Jeanette E. Hooker. They were in Judge Henry King’s courtroom. She said she saw the motorcade come down Main Street and turn onto Houston. In order to see the motorcade this way these women must have been on the south side of the courthouse. You cannot see Main Street from the west side of the courthouse on Houston Street. And, you can not see Elm Street from the south side of the courthouse on Main Street. This Bond photo shows the above to be correct: If you watched the motorcade come down Main Street from Judge Henry King’s courtroom then you could only see the p. limo until it turned the corner onto Houston Street and not any further on Houston Street. You would not be able to see Elm Street from the south side of the courthouse. You would have to move into a room facing on Houston Street to see Houston and Elm Street. Watching from Judge Henry King’s court room, she said she heard 3 shots. If so, she was an ear witness only otherwise the shooting takes place on Main. The first was louder and the second two were not as loud and were closer together. She noticed after the shots the p. limo came to almost a complete stop. Before this sentence in her statement is prefaced by something not possible, but written in to throw the reader off from what she was saying. This was her impression that the bystanders on Elm Street went toward the Grassy Knoll. This was not possible when she was in Judge King’s courtroom. She could only see this from Judge Meyer’s room at a later time. You cannot see the Grassy Knoll from the south side of the courthouse. Jeanette E. Hooker was with Rose Clark and Lilliam Mooneyham in Judge Henry King’s court room when the motorcade came down Main Street and turned onto Houston Street. Jeanette Hooker tells a different story then Rose Clark. They agree that they were in Judge King’s court room watching the motorcade come down Main Street. But, instead of going to Judge Meyer’s room she said they went to Judge J. Frank Wilson’s court room. From there she said she observed the motorcade turn onto Elm Street from Houston. (It could be that Meyer and Wilson shared a court room) Clark said she heard 3 shots while in Judge King’s room. Jeanette Hooker said she heard 3 shots when the p. limo was close to the R. L. Thornton sign. The word sign is not in the statement, but one can infer she meant near the sign rather than the actual roadway which would put the assassination past the Triple Underpass. So, according to Hooker the p. limo was in front of the TSBD when shots were fired. Lillian Mooneyham tells a different story in which an FBI agent’s confusion may play a part. The agent seems to confuse Kings and Wilsons court rooms by reversing them. And, partially clears up the confusion over Judge Meyer’s room being on the 3rd floor rather than the second. Mooneyham does not say where the p. limo was when she heard shots. She said the sequence was the first shot and then a slight pause and the second two were close together. Hooker and Mooneyham's statements differ enough to through the 3 witnesses' statements into confusion. Is it enough to invalidate what they say?

There were several witnesses that said Oswald had a Polish accent when speaking Russian. This might help with answering the question how did Oswald learn the Russian language? He was born to it. There is an area in eastern Poland and western Russia that has swapped ownership from time to time. This is the area that contains the city of Minsk. From the internet: It was part of a region annexed by the Russian Empire in 1793, as a consequence of the Second Partition of Poland. From 1919 to 1991, after the Russian Revolution, Minsk was the capital of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, in the Soviet Union. Now, wouldn't that be something if immigrant Harvey originally came from Minsk and then returned there later on in life. Allen Dulles was in charge of the OSS in Switzerland during the war years 1942-1945. Switzerland was a conduit for Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis during those years and particularly from Poland. Dulles helped refugees get to France and Spain which were stops on their way to the US. Many of these refugees came from Poland and some from the area of Minsk. Harvey wrote in one of his letters (autobiography) that his mother and father were dead, and he did not have a brother or sister. Was this the truth for immigrant Harvey? Did his family die in Russian occupied Poland due to the Nazis systematic genocide? Harvey has connection to Hungarians according to the Tippit phone call FBI doc. This connection was to the Gardos and Louis Weinstock. The folks were Hungarians and ranking communists in New York in the 1940s. Because of the FBI treatment of these people it is suspected that they may have been informants. Allen Dulles and his henchmen made have been thinking of a way to attack the upcoming and new enemy, the Russians, mid way through the war. Immigrant Harvey may have been placed with them from about 1943 to 1947 when he is turned over to Mysterious Marge. The Oswald Project may have been the brain child of Allen Dulles starting midway through WWII. This Hungarian connection was emphasized by adult Oswald having a 1962 book of Hungarian poetry in the Hungarian language. Immigrant Harvey was probably multi-lingual. If you listen closely to Harvey speak you can hear New York and some foreign-ish language. What you don't hear is a New Orleans accent such as those heard from Louisiana cooks heard on TV. Lee Oswald had this accent but probably lost it to some extent by being in Texas, New York, and the military. None of this is really provable and is just conjecture and speculation. But, there is some slight validity in this.

Mark, This is my second go through of your material. I have not found an error or omission in what you are looking for with the witnesses. I am adding my information to your spreadsheet for my own benefit. I have changed the format somewhat by word wrapping column G. That puts all of that information into a readable space that doesn't run off the screen. Columns A, B, C, D, G, and H are the ones I am most interested in. I think, in part, this is intentional on the behalf of the FBI 302 writers. I have noticed certain patterns with the FBI 302s. 1. There are about 70 employees at the TSBD. All were interviewed on 11 22 63 or 11 23-25 63. There are a few exceptions like Steven Wilson. Some witnesses were interviewed as many as 4 times by the DPD, Sheriff's Office, and the FBI. But, mostly by the FBI. For many witnesses you can not find these initial reports. What you find is the FBI Reports from March, 1964. These are highly sanitized. 2. If a witness didn't report the correct information then they had to make further reports until they got it right. A good example is Bonnie Williams or Howard Brennan. 3. In some reports the information is intentionally confusing or vague to disguise what is being said. These are more than likely rewritten by the FBI to obscure what was said or where the witness was. Many of these witness statements have the same arranged format stating much the same as other witnesses. Locations are changed to protect not the innocent, but the guilty. 4. Location of witnesses change in reports that evolve from Nov., 1963 to March, 1964. 5. Many reports give a location with these two phrases "just after" and "immediately after" passing the TSBD. These 2 words can be easily added as the agent writes the 302 at a later time from his notes. Those two words can change what a witness said about location of the p. limo. 6. I may be goofy on this one. But, you can all most read fear in some witness statements. Particularly, those who make more than one statement. Mary Hollies (who many consider a deceptive person) as an example made statements over time that seemed to show this. 7. The reliability of witnesses are comprised by the FBI in later statements. The either coerce the witnesses to make different statements than prior or rewrite them later. It amounts to the same thing. In this regard I stick to first day statements as much as possible. Witnesses who know they have been comprised usually don't say anything until years later. And, generally when a witness does make a later statement in contradicts what they are reputed to have said earlier. I suppose that was ok with the FBI and others since that further compromises their record. Anyway, I am enjoying your spreadsheet since it is leading me to new information. I am into the C's an have already found 4 new witnesses whose statements contradict the main theories of the assassination as both sides of the assassination say.