W. Niederhut

Robert, Have you read Larry Hancock's book, Tipping Point, or James Douglass's book, JFK and the Unspeakable? Larry isn't exactly a screamer, but he has documented a lot of convincing evidence about anti-Castro Cubans in Dallas who had obvious foreknowledge of the hit on JFK-- including the Cuban pilot at Redbird Airport who helped Wayne January prep the plane that flew out of Redbird on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

But, David, didn't Allen Dulles deploy Ed Lansdale to Vietnam, to run Saigon Station, after Lansdale's remarkable success with the Magsaysay regime in the Philippines? Nominally, Lansdale was a USAF man, but he was running the CIA's Saigon Station, wasn't he?

Lighten up, John. It was a joke, used to exacerbate our common irrelevance. Meanwhile, how you handle your ground is none of my business-- whether it's foreground, background, underground, or coffee grounds.

Well, there is the Secret Team, eh, David? And Prouty believed that there were people reporting to Dulles and secretly working for the CIA in a wide array of government agencies. USAF General Ed Lansdale is a well known example. Hell, Dallas Mayor Earl Cabell was a CIA asset in 1963, as we learned from one of the files declassified in (?) 2017.

Michael, Are you saying that Orban isn't a fascist and Andrew Tate isn't a misogynist, or what, exactly? Please explain your latest kooky post.

OUCH!! 😬 ‘You Are Here For Cynical Reasons’: Rep. Connolly Claims RFK Jr. Brings ‘Shame On a Storied Name’ As He’s Used as A GOP Prop (msn.com) Story by Alex Griffing July 20, 2023 Rep. Jerry Connolly (D-VA) tore into Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Thursday for appearing before the House Judiciary Weaponization of Government select subcommittee at the invitation of House Republican leaders on the topic of censorship. Connolly accused the 2024 Democratic presidential candidate of shaming his family name by being an “enabler” of the GOP, which Connolly claimed was using RFK Jr. as a political prop to attack President Joe Biden. “And no matter what you may think, Mr. Kennedy. And I revere your name. You’re not here to propound your case for censorship,” Connolly said as he wound down his remarks. “You are here for cynical reasons to be used politically by that side of the aisle to embarrass the current president of the United States. And you are an enabler in that effort today,” the Virginia Democrat added. “And it brings shame on a storied name that I revere. I began my political interest with your father. And it makes me profoundly sad to see where we have descended today in this hearing. I yield the balance of my time,” he concluded. RFK Jr.’s presidential run in the Democratic primary has been embraced by many on the right and far-right in both U.S. politics and media. Former President Donald Trump called Kennedy a “very smart person” during a Fox News interview Sunday and praised him for hitting a “nerve.” Kennedy has long been denounced as a conspiracy theorist for pushing his widely debunked belief that vaccines cause autism and more recently that chemicals in the water are turning America’s children trans.

This has to be a new low in the history of Congress-- MTG showing Hunter Biden d*ck pics on the floor of the House. And, incidentally, wasn't MTG involved in some sort of tantric sex scandal with a personal trainer? 🙄

John, Speaking of "losing ground," my free psychiatric advice for you today is, "When you're stuck in a hole that you've dug, stop digging." 🤥

RoJo? Are you serious, Michael? He's the screwball who voted against the COVID relief bill and told people to gargle with Listerine to prevent COVID.

One is left to wonder what else Prouty would have had to say and do to cause the U.S. government-employed propagandists (USGEPs) in the research community to stop falsely impugning his reputation. 🙄

Geez, John, you seem exceptionally surly and disagreeable this evening. Did someone piss in your Wheaties this morning? 🤥 Honestly, it's a shame that we tend to have these heated disagreements around here. Ultimately, we all probably have more in common than that which divides us. For example, any friend of James Joyce and Jorge Luis Borges is a friend of mine. (BTW, did you know that Borges was half-English, and studied Anglo-Saxon sagas late in life?) As for Mr. Davies, I'm extremely impressed that his son has been decorated as a Member of the British Empire, for meritorious service to humanity. What could be better than that, for any parent?

I doubt that Tucker has ever met a fascist or a misogynist he didn't like. Didn't he even celebrate Orban during the past year?

Yes, Paul, I am truly disappointed with Democrats for kowtowing to the military industrial complex since 1964. I was shocked and disappointed when Obama retained Gates at the DOD in 2009, and continued to prosecute the Bush/Cheney "War on Terror"-- albeit somewhat half-heartedly, according to Gates' memoir. At least Bernie Sanders voted against the Iraq invasion.

David, I think Barbara Honnegger was an erstwhile 9/11 Truther and PNAC critic before she vanished from the national radar. As for my experience of the "smear campaign" against Prouty, I have written about the subject on a few older threads around here. I first noticed the bizarre negative PR about Prouty on the internet several years ago-- after re-watching Donald Sutherland in Oliver Stone's film, JFK, then reading Prouty's book on JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam. The defamatory material on the internet -- by a guy named John McAdams--seemed to bear no resemblance to Mr. X, or to my perceptions of Prouty's character and work from reading his book(s) and listening to his commentaries. (I read The Secret Team after the JFK book.) At the time, I didn't know anything about McAdams.edu, but the more I delved into the topic of the JFK assassination, the more I realized that this guy, McAdams, was some sort of government propagandist hell-bent on defaming and discrediting Prouty's revelations about Ed Lansdale, the CIA, Vietnam, and the JFK assassination. (Incidentally, how would you answer Prouty's old question to his colleague, General Victor Krulak-- "What was Lansdale doing in Dealey Plaza?") As for "layers of the onion" and false intelligence narratives, I'll take your advice and try to learn more about these military/intelligence complex ops you guys are describing. But I still wonder why Prouty would have opened his mouth to Jim Garrison in the first place if he was, in fact, trying to conceal a mysterious, non-CIA military intelligence op. Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to say nothing?

It's depressing to see that Ron Johnson is only U.S. Senator openly acknowledging that JFK was assassinated in a U.S. government conspiracy. He's right for once, of course, but, unfortunately, no one takes anything RoJo says seriously. Where are Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Chuck Schumer, et.al., when we need them to step up? Ron Johnson Floats JFK Conspiracy Theory July 19, 2023 at 3:46 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 96 Comments Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) said it is “certainly possible” government agencies were involved in the assassination of former President John F. Kennedy, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports. Said Johnson: “I think it’s certainly possible, yeah. The American public deserves the truth, and we haven’t gotten it.” He added: “There’s so many unanswered questions, so many witnesses that just died, so many leads that weren’t followed up on, so much evidence that obviously should have been collected that people have been prevented from collecting.”

Huh, David? I'm not sure where your erroneous concepts about my analytic abilities and knowledge of history are coming from. I majored in American Studies at Brown, like young JFK, Jr., before going to medical school in Boston. As for this forum, I'm a latecomer to the JFK research, but I have followed the discussions on this forum fairly closely during the past few years-- and also studied the archives here. I have always respected your analyses, but, honestly, I don't think Fletcher Prouty had a nefarious bone in his body. (And I'm a reasonably good judge of character-- a professional even.) Would you, at least, agree that Prouty has been targeted by a CIA smear campaign since 1992?

Viral Biden Campaign Video Uses MTG Speech 🤣

Impressive, Ken. Hats off to you and your son.

David, I'm responding to your latest comments in red (below.) Also, Montenegro's argument that Prouty never spoke in specific terms about who killed JFK is misleading, as is his lame reference to Sympathy for the Devil. If I understand his books correctly, Prouty was never a CIA/Secret Team insider. So, much of his writing about JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam was based on inferences-- from his perspective as a JFK era USAF liaison to the CIA. David Josephs wrote: Again... PROUTY was not a JFK admin insider... why can't you acknowledge same? Again, David, what is it about my comment that Prouty was a JFK era Deep State insider that you still don't understand? You're splitting semantic hairs. Certainly, Prouty was involved in writing the McNamara Taylor Report for JFK. Have you read either of Prouty's books? And like @Robert Montenegro I am not tearing him down, he has indeed exposed information that helps cleanse his conscience while adding debunking material to the already huge mountain of such against the WCR. There is now a huge mountain of material debunking the WCR. How much of it was written by JFK era Deep State insiders-- as opposed to outside researchers like Sylvia Meagher, Mark Lane, Jim Garrison? As to your inability to offer JFK Admin Deep Insiders names AT ALL, let alone if they debunked the WCR or not, is a nice side-step. I assume you are aware of the book and articles that have been written over the years attacking the WCR and showing it for what it really was... And which of them were written by JFK era Deep State insiders within 30 years of JFK's assassination? Meanwhile, reports of my alleged "inability to identify JFK admin Deep insiders" have been greatly exaggerated. My point (above) is that it makes more sense to begin with a short list of any JFK insiders who debunked the WCR. Your list is extremely short, at best. Would Daniel Elsberg count even though his revelations are only at the fringe of the Ass'n? What did Ellsberg ever write about the JFKA? We might put Hale Boggs and Richard Russell on the list, but their dissent was muted. If you can't even name a dozen or so of these "insiders" what's the point of my taking time to dig them up for you... Huh? What's the point of digging up the names of people who never stuck their necks out to expose the WCR fraudulence? What you seem to be trying to prove is that PROUTY was the only one... even though he was not one of the "insiders" based on the modifiers you added. Go back and check on those modifiers. You can dig into who and why the WCRT was debunked on your own... there is probably 10 years of reading on this site alone showing every aspect of the WCR & HSCA reports as the junk they were... Even Blakey admits it. Insiders? People who were working in military and other JFK administrative circles-- as opposed to outside researchers? How about SPRAGUE? Too late to be a JFK deep state insider? KRULAK had cold feet? makes one wonder.. PROUTY was in bed with these men for decades and is one of the only vocal detractors... Feeding and/or exposing info that supports the myriad of onion layer cover stories and keeping people focused "over there" while the real crimes were perpetrated "over here" is not something in the best interest of the 2 entities he served? C'mon man. C'mon, man. You still don't get it. If Prouty was interested in hiding information about the JFK assassination, why didn't he simply leave the WCR narrative alone-- letting sleeping dogs lie? And I bet you still think the Zapruder film is THE definitive record and timing of the assassination. I've got this bridge I can sell you too... I'm aware that C.D. Jackson's Z film was tampered with by the company, from the beginning. You can keep your bridge. Finally - what makes you think ANYONE meeting your description would throw themselves and their benefactors under the bus by overtly exposing the reality of the assassination? Because Prouty was a man of integrity-- genuinely concerned about the rogue black ops of the CIA, the CIA hijacking of American democracy on 11/22/63, and the reversal of the NSAM263 policy that he was involved in formulating? Have you even bothered to read thru the ARRB ... Dr. HUMES (insider?) is finally nailed down and debunks his own WCR testimony about the start of the autopsy and the arrival of JFK... while an empty hearse sat at the front of Bethesda... Many others describe the in-process autopsy as the empty casket pulls up to the front of the hospital. SIbert and O'Neill finally came clean telling us THEY brought in casket at 7:17 after Humes lets us know he had been with JFK's body since 6:30. Good for them. Good for anyone who tried to expose the JFK assassination op. How much debunking do you want W? You want McNamara and Bundy to come out and say yes, we did it because the cabal forced us to change NSAM 263, keep the wars going and remove the dreadful PEACE POTUS from office? The more debunking the merrier. Why didn't McNamara and Bundy have the integrity and the cajones to tell America the truth early on? They were all afraid. What are you trying to do here W? Show your work Huh? What are you trying to do here, David, turn a history debate into an ad hominem pissing contest? This isn't about me. It's about Fletcher Prouty and his proper place in history.

David, I appreciate your efforts (and Montenegro's) to give us a fuller picture of U.S. military/intelligence ops in the 50s and 60s, but you're being somewhat disingenuous here about my questions. My question about Prouty was posted for you and Paul Brancato to illustrate the fact that Prouty was, in fact, a very rare example of a JFK administration era "Deep State" insider who had the courage and the integrity to step up and try to debunk the WCR narrative (through his contacts with Jim Garrison and Oliver Stone and his book on JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam.) He stuck his neck out, and has been smeared by CIA propagandists for the past 30 years as a result. If he had been involved with, or knowledgeable about, the JFK assassins, why would he have exposed problems with the WCR narrative-- rather than letting sleeping dogs lie? Do you understand my point? So, let's give Prouty credit for trying to tell the public the truth about Allen Dulles, Lansdale, and the CIA. Allen Dulles's favorite black ops/psy ops man, Ed Lansdale, was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. He was positively ID's by Prouty and Krulak, then Krulak got cold feet and wanted nothing to do with publicly outing Lansdale in Dealey Plaza. Prouty was more courageous. I appreciate your attempt to answer my question, (unlike Paul, who ignored it) but you came up with no one of any real significance in the JFK era Deep State who was similarly courageous. As for your request for a list of JFK Deep State "insiders," doesn't it makes more sense to simply identify those JFK era government employees who stepped up to debunk the WCR narrative?! Where are they? Your list is thin gruel, indeed-- illustrating Gerry Patrick Hemming's claim that Prouty was the only Deep State insider who ever spilled the beans about the CIA, JFK, and Vietnam. You can call that "cheerleading" if you choose. I call it "history."

Paul, Prouty was in Colorado Springs for a few years after he left Yale in 1949, then in Japan from 1952-54, and at USAF Headquarters from 1954-December of 1963. He was always a USAF guy, and never reported to Allen Dulles-- on "the Secret Team." I just re-posted Greg Burnham's summary of Prouty's career history on the thread, "Why Prouty's Critics Are Wrong."

Thanks for pointing this out, Jim. For me, it also raises a general issue about CIA tampering with files for the purpose of defamation and/or concealing their ops and actors. For example, I recall reading somewhere that E. Howard Hunt had altered some files to make it appear that JFK was in on the plot to murder Diem. Is it possible that the CIA manipulated files to discredit Fletcher Prouty, as they did in Garrison's case? What better way to discredit a whistleblower like Prouty than to suggest that he was collaborating with Nazis?

I'm re-posting Greg Burnham's biographical outline of Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's career. As Jeff Carter has pointed out today, Fletcher Prouty was teaching at Yale from 1946-49. Operation Bloodstone was established in 1948, according to Robert Montenegro's files. Unless the Bloodstone op was based wholly or partly in New Haven, it seems doubtful that Prouty was involved-- even as a USAF pilot assisting the CIA.

David, Can you and Paul Brancato name any other JFK administration Deep State insiders, besides Col. L. Fletcher Prouty, who ever stepped forward to debunk the WCR narrative about JFK's assassination? Also, can someone explain how Skorzeny was involved in the CIA/Anti-Castro Cuban op (delineated by Larry Hancock, et.al.) to assassinate JFK? This is now the third time I have asked that question on this disorganized thread.