W. Niederhut

David, I think Barbara Honnegger was an erstwhile 9/11 Truther and PNAC critic before she vanished from the national radar. As for my experience of the "smear campaign" against Prouty, I have written about the subject on a few older threads around here. I first noticed the bizarre negative PR about Prouty on the internet several years ago-- after re-watching Donald Sutherland in Oliver Stone's film, JFK, then reading Prouty's book on JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam. The defamatory material on the internet -- by a guy named John McAdams--seemed to bear no resemblance to Mr. X, or to my perceptions of Prouty's character and work from reading his book(s) and listening to his commentaries. (I read The Secret Team after the JFK book.) At the time, I didn't know anything about McAdams.edu, but the more I delved into the topic of the JFK assassination, the more I realized that this guy, McAdams, was some sort of government propagandist hell-bent on defaming and discrediting Prouty's revelations about Ed Lansdale, the CIA, Vietnam, and the JFK assassination. (Incidentally, how would you answer Prouty's old question to his colleague, General Victor Krulak-- "What was Lansdale doing in Dealey Plaza?") As for "layers of the onion" and false intelligence narratives, I'll take your advice and try to learn more about these military/intelligence complex ops you guys are describing. But I still wonder why Prouty would have opened his mouth to Jim Garrison in the first place if he was, in fact, trying to conceal a mysterious, non-CIA military intelligence op. Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to say nothing?

It's depressing to see that Ron Johnson is only U.S. Senator openly acknowledging that JFK was assassinated in a U.S. government conspiracy. He's right for once, of course, but, unfortunately, no one takes anything RoJo says seriously. Where are Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Chuck Schumer, et.al., when we need them to step up? Ron Johnson Floats JFK Conspiracy Theory July 19, 2023 at 3:46 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 96 Comments Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) said it is “certainly possible” government agencies were involved in the assassination of former President John F. Kennedy, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports. Said Johnson: “I think it’s certainly possible, yeah. The American public deserves the truth, and we haven’t gotten it.” He added: “There’s so many unanswered questions, so many witnesses that just died, so many leads that weren’t followed up on, so much evidence that obviously should have been collected that people have been prevented from collecting.”

Huh, David? I'm not sure where your erroneous concepts about my analytic abilities and knowledge of history are coming from. I majored in American Studies at Brown, like young JFK, Jr., before going to medical school in Boston. As for this forum, I'm a latecomer to the JFK research, but I have followed the discussions on this forum fairly closely during the past few years-- and also studied the archives here. I have always respected your analyses, but, honestly, I don't think Fletcher Prouty had a nefarious bone in his body. (And I'm a reasonably good judge of character-- a professional even.) Would you, at least, agree that Prouty has been targeted by a CIA smear campaign since 1992?

Viral Biden Campaign Video Uses MTG Speech 🤣

Impressive, Ken. Hats off to you and your son.

David, I'm responding to your latest comments in red (below.) Also, Montenegro's argument that Prouty never spoke in specific terms about who killed JFK is misleading, as is his lame reference to Sympathy for the Devil. If I understand his books correctly, Prouty was never a CIA/Secret Team insider. So, much of his writing about JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam was based on inferences-- from his perspective as a JFK era USAF liaison to the CIA. David Josephs wrote: Again... PROUTY was not a JFK admin insider... why can't you acknowledge same? Again, David, what is it about my comment that Prouty was a JFK era Deep State insider that you still don't understand? You're splitting semantic hairs. Certainly, Prouty was involved in writing the McNamara Taylor Report for JFK. Have you read either of Prouty's books? And like @Robert Montenegro I am not tearing him down, he has indeed exposed information that helps cleanse his conscience while adding debunking material to the already huge mountain of such against the WCR. There is now a huge mountain of material debunking the WCR. How much of it was written by JFK era Deep State insiders-- as opposed to outside researchers like Sylvia Meagher, Mark Lane, Jim Garrison? As to your inability to offer JFK Admin Deep Insiders names AT ALL, let alone if they debunked the WCR or not, is a nice side-step. I assume you are aware of the book and articles that have been written over the years attacking the WCR and showing it for what it really was... And which of them were written by JFK era Deep State insiders within 30 years of JFK's assassination? Meanwhile, reports of my alleged "inability to identify JFK admin Deep insiders" have been greatly exaggerated. My point (above) is that it makes more sense to begin with a short list of any JFK insiders who debunked the WCR. Your list is extremely short, at best. Would Daniel Elsberg count even though his revelations are only at the fringe of the Ass'n? What did Ellsberg ever write about the JFKA? We might put Hale Boggs and Richard Russell on the list, but their dissent was muted. If you can't even name a dozen or so of these "insiders" what's the point of my taking time to dig them up for you... Huh? What's the point of digging up the names of people who never stuck their necks out to expose the WCR fraudulence? What you seem to be trying to prove is that PROUTY was the only one... even though he was not one of the "insiders" based on the modifiers you added. Go back and check on those modifiers. You can dig into who and why the WCRT was debunked on your own... there is probably 10 years of reading on this site alone showing every aspect of the WCR & HSCA reports as the junk they were... Even Blakey admits it. Insiders? People who were working in military and other JFK administrative circles-- as opposed to outside researchers? How about SPRAGUE? Too late to be a JFK deep state insider? KRULAK had cold feet? makes one wonder.. PROUTY was in bed with these men for decades and is one of the only vocal detractors... Feeding and/or exposing info that supports the myriad of onion layer cover stories and keeping people focused "over there" while the real crimes were perpetrated "over here" is not something in the best interest of the 2 entities he served? C'mon man. C'mon, man. You still don't get it. If Prouty was interested in hiding information about the JFK assassination, why didn't he simply leave the WCR narrative alone-- letting sleeping dogs lie? And I bet you still think the Zapruder film is THE definitive record and timing of the assassination. I've got this bridge I can sell you too... I'm aware that C.D. Jackson's Z film was tampered with by the company, from the beginning. You can keep your bridge. Finally - what makes you think ANYONE meeting your description would throw themselves and their benefactors under the bus by overtly exposing the reality of the assassination? Because Prouty was a man of integrity-- genuinely concerned about the rogue black ops of the CIA, the CIA hijacking of American democracy on 11/22/63, and the reversal of the NSAM263 policy that he was involved in formulating? Have you even bothered to read thru the ARRB ... Dr. HUMES (insider?) is finally nailed down and debunks his own WCR testimony about the start of the autopsy and the arrival of JFK... while an empty hearse sat at the front of Bethesda... Many others describe the in-process autopsy as the empty casket pulls up to the front of the hospital. SIbert and O'Neill finally came clean telling us THEY brought in casket at 7:17 after Humes lets us know he had been with JFK's body since 6:30. Good for them. Good for anyone who tried to expose the JFK assassination op. How much debunking do you want W? You want McNamara and Bundy to come out and say yes, we did it because the cabal forced us to change NSAM 263, keep the wars going and remove the dreadful PEACE POTUS from office? The more debunking the merrier. Why didn't McNamara and Bundy have the integrity and the cajones to tell America the truth early on? They were all afraid. What are you trying to do here W? Show your work Huh? What are you trying to do here, David, turn a history debate into an ad hominem pissing contest? This isn't about me. It's about Fletcher Prouty and his proper place in history.

David, I appreciate your efforts (and Montenegro's) to give us a fuller picture of U.S. military/intelligence ops in the 50s and 60s, but you're being somewhat disingenuous here about my questions. My question about Prouty was posted for you and Paul Brancato to illustrate the fact that Prouty was, in fact, a very rare example of a JFK administration era "Deep State" insider who had the courage and the integrity to step up and try to debunk the WCR narrative (through his contacts with Jim Garrison and Oliver Stone and his book on JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam.) He stuck his neck out, and has been smeared by CIA propagandists for the past 30 years as a result. If he had been involved with, or knowledgeable about, the JFK assassins, why would he have exposed problems with the WCR narrative-- rather than letting sleeping dogs lie? Do you understand my point? So, let's give Prouty credit for trying to tell the public the truth about Allen Dulles, Lansdale, and the CIA. Allen Dulles's favorite black ops/psy ops man, Ed Lansdale, was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. He was positively ID's by Prouty and Krulak, then Krulak got cold feet and wanted nothing to do with publicly outing Lansdale in Dealey Plaza. Prouty was more courageous. I appreciate your attempt to answer my question, (unlike Paul, who ignored it) but you came up with no one of any real significance in the JFK era Deep State who was similarly courageous. As for your request for a list of JFK Deep State "insiders," doesn't it makes more sense to simply identify those JFK era government employees who stepped up to debunk the WCR narrative?! Where are they? Your list is thin gruel, indeed-- illustrating Gerry Patrick Hemming's claim that Prouty was the only Deep State insider who ever spilled the beans about the CIA, JFK, and Vietnam. You can call that "cheerleading" if you choose. I call it "history."

Paul, Prouty was in Colorado Springs for a few years after he left Yale in 1949, then in Japan from 1952-54, and at USAF Headquarters from 1954-December of 1963. He was always a USAF guy, and never reported to Allen Dulles-- on "the Secret Team." I just re-posted Greg Burnham's summary of Prouty's career history on the thread, "Why Prouty's Critics Are Wrong."

Thanks for pointing this out, Jim. For me, it also raises a general issue about CIA tampering with files for the purpose of defamation and/or concealing their ops and actors. For example, I recall reading somewhere that E. Howard Hunt had altered some files to make it appear that JFK was in on the plot to murder Diem. Is it possible that the CIA manipulated files to discredit Fletcher Prouty, as they did in Garrison's case? What better way to discredit a whistleblower like Prouty than to suggest that he was collaborating with Nazis?

I'm re-posting Greg Burnham's biographical outline of Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's career. As Jeff Carter has pointed out today, Fletcher Prouty was teaching at Yale from 1946-49. Operation Bloodstone was established in 1948, according to Robert Montenegro's files. Unless the Bloodstone op was based wholly or partly in New Haven, it seems doubtful that Prouty was involved-- even as a USAF pilot assisting the CIA.

David, Can you and Paul Brancato name any other JFK administration Deep State insiders, besides Col. L. Fletcher Prouty, who ever stepped forward to debunk the WCR narrative about JFK's assassination? Also, can someone explain how Skorzeny was involved in the CIA/Anti-Castro Cuban op (delineated by Larry Hancock, et.al.) to assassinate JFK? This is now the third time I have asked that question on this disorganized thread.

No Labels Skirts Disclosure Laws July 17, 2023 at 3:17 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 69 Comments Mother Jones: “No Labels, the self-professed centrist group that is preparing to possibly run its own presidential candidate in 2024, says it is not a political party. That means it does not have to reveal the donors that have pumped tens of millions of dollars in recent years into its coffers. Parties must disclose their funders; nonprofit outfits, as No Labels claims to be, do not.” “But in several states, No Labels has established an affiliate that explicitly declares it is a political party, and some of these groups, particularly the party it set up in Florida, have deep Republican roots.”

Robert, You're mistaken. I haven't attacked you personally on this thread. Every point and question I have raised pertains directly to your claims and theories about Prouty-- including your notion that he was possibly covering up aspects of the JFK murder plot. On the contrary, Prouty was one of the few JFK "Deep State" insiders who ever tried to expose aspects of the murder conspiracy with which he was familiar -- as Gerry Patrick Hemming told Greg Burnham. As for my unanswered question for you about how Skorzeny and these Operation Bloodstone Nazis fit into the JFK murder plot, (with the CIA and the anti-Castro Cubans) it looks like I'll need to study the subject. I haven't read Leslie Sharp's book on the subject yet. I do appreciate reading your observations about these Bloodstone files. Thanks for sharing. P.S. Michael Griffith's latest claim that Prouty was "erratic" is complete bunk, like all of Griffith's defamatory nonsense on the subject.

Adam, RFK, Jr. isn't going to win any support from American liberals by pretending that Trump and his right wing cult aren't a serious problem in the U.S. At present, RFK, Jr.'s support and media promotion is mainly coming from right wingers.* As for Biden's age, it's a liability but a lesser evil than the right wing GOP plutocracy. * GOP Donors Fuel RFK Jr.’s Presidential Campaign July 17, 2023 at 6:57 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 35 Comments According to a Popular Information analysis of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s first FEC filing, the lion’s share of Kennedy’s biggest donors have previously only donated to Republicans.

Robert, What you said in your lead post on this thread is that you believed that Prouty knew who "the real murderers of President Kennedy were," and may have "taken that information to his grave" -- implying that Prouty was, at least, complicit in a cover up. That's quite defamatory. But, if true, why would Prouty have gone to such lengths to debunk the WCR narrative (in his contacts with Garrison and Oliver Stone?) The theory makes no sense.

Robert, You never answered any of the key questions I posted in response to your lead posts here this morning. You have simply rephrased and repeated your illogical, dubious theses about Prouty. 1) You have accused Prouty of some sort of unacknowledged complicity in the JFK assassination op-- apparently with the Operation Paper Clip Nazis he was tasked by his superiors with transporting to the U.S. after WWII. Unanswered question for Montenegro #1 1) If Prouty had been involved in the JFK assassination op, why would he have contacted investigators like Jim Garrison (and Oliver Stone) to debunk the WCR/Lone Nut narrative? That makes no sense. Unanswered question for Montenegro #2 2) What relationship/involvement did Skorzeny and the CIA Operation Paper Clip Nazis have with the CIA/Anti-Castro Cubans who have been implicated in the JFK assassination op by the research of Larry Hancock, et.al.?

Newsflash, Ben. The dictator-puppet in the White House was voted out in November of 2020.

It's complicated, Adam. Many of us would prefer to see a younger, qualified liberal Democratic torch bearer, like California Governor Gavin Newsom, emerge in 2024. That said, it's critically important for American liberals to prevent a further regression toward reactionary, plutocratic, right wing governance in the U.S.-- the GOP suppression of voting, of women's rights, LGBT rights, environmental protection, and their "trickle down" tax cuts for billionaires and corporations. The right wing propaganda focus on Biden's age has been relentless, and it obscures Biden's effective record of governance since January of 2021. His knowledge of policy issues dwarfs Trump's abysmal ignorance and ineptitude. As for RFK, Jr., he has had no experience in governance, and he has exhibited a series of flawed judgments, especially in matters of science and public health. He's not our guy, and has mainly been promoted by the right wing Aussie propaganda mogul Rupert Murdoch. What is especially off-putting about RFK,Jr., to date, is his reluctance to criticize Donald Trump and his destructive, white supremacist MAGA cult. These are the guys who attacked the U.S. Congress on January 6, 2021, to block the certification of Biden's election-- an unprecedented crime against American democracy.

Robert, Would you be so kind as to answer my questions (above?) For example, if Prouty had been involved in a nefarious Nazi plot to murder JFK, why would he have contacted Jim Garrison (and Oliver Stone) in order to debunk the WCR Lone Nut narrative, and educate people about LBJ's reversal of JFK's NSAM263 policy in Vietnam (which Prouty had worked on, with General Krulak?) Your theory makes no sense. P.S. Technically, I'm Dr. Niederhut. Mr. Niederhut was my father.

Geez... Not this John McAdams/Michael Griffith Liberty Lobby BS again... 🙄 We need Len Osanic's expertise to straighten out the pseudo-historical nonsense here. Robert Montenegro's illogical, half-baked "theory" here about Prouty possibly being involved in the JFK assassination conspiracy is contradicted by a vast array of historical facts. And it raises a number of obvious questions. (See below.) Robert appears to be the latest Prouty critic around here (along with Michael Griffith, Mark Stevens, Keyvan Sharder, et.al.) who has never studied or understood Prouty's work. (Naturally, Michael Griffith and the U.S. government-affiliated Prouty defamers are more than happen to jump on Montenegro's latest Prouty defamation bandwagon.) Et tu, Paul Brancato? Questions 1) What was Prouty's position in the post-WWII military hierarchy, and his relationship with the U.S. military and Allen Dulles era CIA command structures? Hint: He never worked on Dulles' "Secret Team." He was a USAF man for the duration of his government career-- ending in December of 1963. During his career, Prouty was primarily tasked with organizing transportation and air support for military and CIA ops, including Operation Paper Clip. The CIA black ops people (including Lansdale at Saigon Station) relied on Prouty and the U.S. military for transportation and supplies. 2) Does anyone who has studied Prouty's work seriously believe that Prouty was involved in formulating CIA plans and black ops-- e.g., Operation Paperclip, Lansdale's ops at Saigon Station, or the JFK assassination-- as opposed to assisting the CIA with transportation and supplies for their ops? In the case of the JFK assassination, Prouty had no conceivable involvement in the Dealey Plaza murder op. He was in Antarctica, and only gradually tried to solve the puzzle of the evident CIA black op and psy op to murder JFK, reverse NSAM263, and orchestrate the Lone Nut alibi in the M$M. 3) If Prouty was involved in the JFK murder plot, why was he a key figure in exposing Deep State involvement in the plot-- and helping Jim Garrison and Oliver Stone debunk the WCR Lone Nut narrative? Wouldn't he have left the WCR/Lone Nut narrative prevail? 4) Finally, given what Larry Hancock, et.al. have uncovered about CIA/Anti-Castro Cuban involvement in the JFK assassination, where is this Otto Skorzeny/Paper Clip stuff supposed to fit into the historical framework of the Dealey Plaza assassination op?

We're all MAGAs now... 🙄 RFK Jr. says Trump ‘probably the most successful debater’ since Lincoln | The Hill This one floored me. I watched all of Donald Trump's Presidential debates with Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, and I thought Trump came across like a feces-flinging baboon. Perhaps I wasn't picking up on Trump's primal, hominid appeal to his Caucasian MAGA tribe. Nor was the consensus at the time favorable for Trump-- who later lost the popular vote by 2% to Hillary, and by a wider margin to Biden. To compare Trump's debate performance to Abraham Lincoln's is, frankly, bizarre. "A house divided against itself cannot stand" "No Markers will be allowed in our cunny"

Don't get me wrong, Jonathan. There are a number of RFK, Jr.'s beliefs that I believe to be erroneous-- especially regarding infectious diseases and vaccines. I was merely pointing out that the possibility of bioweapons engineered to target genotypes seems, frighteningly, plausible.

For those who haven't seen the latest James Bond movie, No Time to Die, the plot centers on a villain who uses genomic data to create bioweapons targeting populations based on their genotypes-- precisely what RFK, Jr. is referring to here. Of course, it was fiction, but it occurred to me while watching that movie that some crazy bastards have probably been interested in the concept. I haven't seen any data-- most of which is top secret, I'm sure-- but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that someone is studying bioweapons that target particular genotypes. Homo lupus homini.

Keyvan, If you want to do a deep search of Prouty's opinions about JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam, try reading his book on the subject. And your GIGO search engine needs work. If this is the future of historiography, we're in trouble.