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tosh here you go..THIS BTW WAS TAKEN FROM THE SOUTH SIDE OVERPASS FOR DOUG WELDON'S DOCUMENTARY .b

HERE ARE THE PHOTOS TOSH NO PROBLEMS TODAY..you had mentioned a photo of the limo i believe taken at love with a stain on the carpet in the back perhaps this is the one you meant....and showing the thickness of the asphalt a few years back....BEST B

The photo of Dealey Plaza taken around the time that Kennedy was killed has me asking 2 questions and both answers will probably be 'no.'

The white van heading North, that wouldn't be a laundry truck like the one seen in Dealey Plaza?

The car in the center of the picture on the bottom, is that a Rambler?

(Also odd: there seems to have been a collision with 2 cars at the median.)

Kathy C

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tosh here you go..THIS BTW WAS TAKEN FROM THE SOUTH SIDE OVERPASS FOR DOUG WELDON'S DOCUMENTARY .b

HERE ARE THE PHOTOS TOSH NO PROBLEMS TODAY..you had mentioned a photo of the limo i believe taken at love with a stain on the carpet in the back perhaps this is the one you meant....and showing the thickness of the asphalt a few years back....BEST B

The photo of Dealey Plaza taken around the time that Kennedy was killed has me asking 2 questions and both answers will probably be 'no.'

The white van heading North, that wouldn't be a laundry truck like the one seen in Dealey Plaza?

The car in the center of the picture on the bottom, is that a Rambler?

(Also odd: there seems to have been a collision with 2 cars at the median.)

Kathy C

Kathy: Thanks for the post. I do not know for sure about the collision. I do not remember seeing one, but I was moving a little fast that day. I was told some years later that, "... if I was there I would have remembered the wreck...". Will that did a number on me. I never knew about any, "wreck". But because this person was an "EXPERT" on the Kennedy assassination and I was just a "fabricator, seeking publicity for a book", that was the end of the south knoll photo conversations.

Edited by William Plumlee
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imo doug and all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of a south side of elm thread and this one to continue..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been halted to some degree..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE all YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS SUCH, or let them down, your call..best b..please excuse the caps and muddled typing..txs

In case some missed this post from Al Carrier in 2004, before the thread was shut down.

Nov 26 2004, 06:46 AM

Post #1

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Member No.: 1814

I have been seriously researching the JFK Assassination for some fourteen years. What I bring into it is a background in weaponry, ballistics, crime scene investigative techniques and an understanding for sniper deployment and procedures. I have never accepted the official version of a lone sniper achieving the feat from a location 60’ above in the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Then add to this official account, the capabilities of the weapon and shooter that was accepted by the Warren Commission and later the HSCA, it was ridiculous.

Wound ballistics became an immediate issue when I began researching the Kennedy assassination in order to determine a shot origin. While there is overwhelming evidence in my opinion of a shooter on the north knoll at the time of the assassination, I had issues with this angle of trajectory creating the head wound suffered by President Kennedy. The discovery of Badgeman by Jack White and Gary Mack in the Mooreman Photograph, witnesses who reported hearing shot(s) on the north knoll, Gordon Arnold’s reporting of a shooter there, as well as other sightings of shooters and smoke from that origin, leaves no doubt in my mind that shot(s) were fired from this location. That does not necessarily mean that the head wound was inflicted by this shot origin and in my opinion from my background in weaponry and wound ballistics, I believe that it was not.

There are issues to consider when determining a point of entrance. The greater fracturing of the skull will occur forward of the point of impact as the energy from the penetrating projectile will radiate forward along the trajectory path of the initial penetration point. As seen in the Zapruder film and after the lightening of the top of the head autopsy photos, a large defect was also found high on the head, right of midline and a flap of scalp and partial skull bone was attached to the flap. This is created when the penetration trajectory is shallow below the skull, creating the energy dispersion to push out against the fractured bone.

By noting where the skull fracture and flap begins, it is logical that the point of entry is close to that location. By following the trajectory back to the massive wound in the right portion of the occipital parietal, which was clearly seen at Parkland Hospital by medical personnel, it shows a true line of trajectory and shot origin.

The challenge to this line of trajectory in support of shot origin of the north knoll comes from many researchers and is supported by forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht. Dr. Wecht believes that a shot fired from the north knoll, striking the right temporal/parietal region of the president’s skull would DEFLECT and turn outward (left), maintaining a wound cavity to the right portion of the skull.

The problem with this is that penetration from a rifle caliber projectile that is traveling in excess of 1800fps and most likely above 2400fps, would not deviate outward, but actually slightly inward through skull penetration. The ratio of diameter v. length of the projectile penetrating through a multi-layed resistant surface, such as skull plating, would actually create a rollover effect through surface penetration. This would cause the projectile to turn slightly inward instead of deflecting upon penetration. This has been proven in wound ballistic testing through the work of Dr. Martin Fackler over the past twenty years and accepted by the NIJ in studies of wound ballistics in order to determine effectiveness in ballistic resistant materials in ballistic vests.

The problem this shot trajectory creates is that it shows a shot origin that is in conflict with the witnesses who made a determination on shot origin by what they heard. This shot trajectory would place a shot origin in the region of the south end of the overpass over some sixty feet to the south knoll parking lot. No witnesses reported hearing a shot from this location, other than one who has came forward as being part of an abort team. This witness I will address later.

With 200 plus witnesses in DP at the time of the assassination and none focusing on shots from this location, most researchers write off the likelihood of a south plaza shooter. They also have concerns with this exposed location. This can easily be explained by a common practice by military sniper teams in both urban and rural environments.

Often, the most ideal location for shot origin, especially on a moving target, is a location that exposes the shooter the greatest. Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. The term “Canyon Shoot” was unofficially adopted when Sgt. Alvin York utilized various shot origins and the echo effects of the terrain to fool the enemy into believing they were surrounded, when in fact it was only he who was shooting.

In the case of Dealey Plaza, a shooter firing from the Texas School Book Depository would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. Witnesses would detect the first sound and roughly identify a shot origin and this would cover the fire of the others shooters, deeper in the plaza. The echo effect of the Plaza would also aid in making the witnesses believe that it was shot reverberation that they were hearing deeper in the plaza. With another shooter firing from the North Knoll, this would direct witnesses along Elm and at the intersection of Elm and Houston to focus their attention on the area between the Depository and the Knoll. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.

The closest known witnesses to the South End Overpass/South Knoll position were James Tague who was positioned on Commerce under the overpass, two Dallas Police Officers and nine railroad employees atop the underpass over Elm, and Tosh Plumlee and an associate who were on the bank of the South Knoll. Tague did not hear a shot originate from overhead or to his left and rear, but his perception could easily have been hampered by the extreme echo effects of all shots reverberating under the underpass. The persons atop the underpass did not detect the shot fired to their left, but their attention was on the approaching motorcade and their attention was drawn to the shots fired from the north knoll, which was in the direct of the approaching motorcade and of nearly equal distance in comparison to the south origin. Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself.

The most recent challenge to the South End of the Overpass/South Knoll shot origin comes from Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack. Mack has come forward with new reporter Bob Jett, who has claimed to have been in the South Knoll Parking Lot eating his lunch at the time of the assassination. Jett has stated that he saw no assassin and heard no shots fired from that origin. Jett was working at the time of the assassination. My question as to his credibility and presence is why did he not immediately report on air, witnessing the assassination? Why was he not called upon by the Warren Commission to testify as to what he saw and did not see? The Warren Commission directed questions at most witnesses as to whether they heard or saw anything suspicious in this region. Wouldn’t Jett have been the nail in the coffin they needed to disprove a shooter there?

Another established researcher who supports my belief of shot origin from the south end of overpass/south knoll region, is nationally recognized Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Expert and Instructor, Sherry Gutierrez. Sherry has presented at JFK Lancer November in Dallas Seminars in 2001 and 2003. In 2003, she partly focused on this shot origin. She has also produced threads on the Lancer Forum regarding this.

Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory. This also explains the compromised velocity that would result in a shallower wound path. I have been challenged on this through photos including Altgens 6 and 7 and have provided arguments on both. Because this is already a rather complex subject, I will not go into detail on the throat wound.

Al Carrier

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I must agree, your information re the south side shot imo is entirely a different subject in it's own in the area of tosh and his observations in being there that day etc.but are ..two separate fields but similar and relating to each other in a very important way... and we need it to come together but not if tosh leaves though he has always been very open and wanting such looked into and released so it could have been time for the researchers to have had both side in otherwards but not if his bag has been packed, imo tosh i cannot understand your doing so, in the past i have broken a thread with other info and have been asked the same to start a new thread, and have done so, so have many others so you could also. it's no big deal....if you do want all out there so it can possibley be worked on and connected..sorry to repeat myself but this kind of thing cheeses me off and it shows as a rule...take care all i shall too...best b..

a couple of others b..the second one if from tosh's approximate area...of view ...

Interesting articles from some years back... in case anyone is interesting in reading it.

http://hobrad.angelfire.com/umbrella.html

UMBRELLA MAN

and

http://viswiki.com/en/Billie_Sol_Estes

Billy Sol ESTES

Billie Sol Estes (born 1924) was a scandal-ridden Texas-based financier best known for his association with U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson and for having accused Johnson of a variety of crimes, including the assassination of his presidential predecessor, John F. Kennedy.[1]

Estes was born in Alanreed in west Texas. He amassed his fortune through the federal surplus grain program. After marrying in 1946, he moved to Pecos, the seat of Reeves County in southwest Texas, where he sold irrigation pumps powered by natural gas. He channeled those profits to launch still another successful business selling anhydrous ammonia fertilizer.[2] Mr. Estes currently lives in Granbury, Texas.

Fraud charges

In the late 1950s, the United States Department of Agriculture began controlling the price of cotton, specifying quotas to farmers. The limited production hurt Estes' businesses. He responded by expanding into cotton production himself. Over the next few years he developed a massive fraud, claiming to grow and store cotton that never existed, then using the cotton as collateral for bank loans. During this same period he became involved in Texas Democratic state politics and made political contributions to U.S. Senator and later Vice President of the United States Lyndon Johnson.[3]

On June 3, 1961, Estes' local contact at the Agricultural Stabilization and Conservation Service, Henry Marshall, was found dead in his car with five gunshot wounds on a remote part of his own ranch. County Sheriff Lee Farmer attributed Marshall's death to carbon monoxide poisoning brought about from a hose attached to the exhaust pipe of his car. The body was buried without an autopsy. The suicide verdict was later overturned.[4]

On April 4, 1962, Estes' accountant, George Krutilek, was found dead from carbon monoxide poisoning. Krutilek had been questioned by the FBI about Estes the day before.

Meanwhile, Lubbock attorney Warlick Carr, brother of future Attorney General Waggoner Carr, filed some thirty civil suits against Estes to reclaim damages.

As a result of these deaths and an investigation into his business practices, on April 5, 1962, Estes and several business associates were indicted by a federal grand jury on fifty-seven counts of fraud. Estes was accused of swindling investors, banks and the federal government of at least $24 million through false agricultural subsidy claims on cotton production and the use of non-existent supplies of anhydrous ammonia fertilizer as collateral for loans. He was eventually found guilty of additional federal charges and sentenced to fifteen years in prison.

Two of Estes' associates, Harold Orr and Coleman Wade, were also indicted but died of carbon monoxide poisoning (apparent suicides) before they went to trial. Estes was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to eight years in prison. Howard Pratt, manager of a Chicago fertilizer supply company, was also found dead in his car from an apparent carbon monoxide poisoning. There was also a half bottle of liquor in his car; however, after testing, no alcohol was present in Howard's body.

The high-profile case generated extensive national press coverage and was the first topic of President John F. Kennedy's press conference on May 17, 1962. As a result of the financial and political scandal, Kennedy apparently began to consider dropping Johnson as his running mate in the 1964 election. The political fallout extended to the election of Ed Foreman as a Republican to the United States House of Representatives from west Texas in 1962. At the time, he and Bruce Alger of Dallas were the only Texas Republican congressmen. There were twenty-two Democrats in the national delegation. Democratic incumbent J. T. Rutherford's ties to Estes were the main cause of his defeat. Foreman, however, was defeated two years later in the Johnson-Humphrey landslide.

Although Estes went to prison, his conviction was later overturned by the United States Supreme Court in Estes v. Texas, 381 U.S. 532 (1965). His appeal hinged upon television cameras and broadcast journalists having been allowed in the courtroom, depriving him of a fair trial. He prevailed by a narrow 5-4 vote.

Allegations and conspiracy theories

After his release from jail and LBJ's death, Estes began making allegations regarding Johnson. According to the authors of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, Estes claimed to have funneled millions of dollars into Johnson's pockets from the cotton allotment scam. Although some contributions are a matter of record, Johnson denied the bribery charges.

The Estes case also figures prominently in the best-selling book A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power by the Texas historian J. Evetts Haley.[5]

Estes later claimed Johnson was involved in a conspiracy to murder witnesses in the Estes trial as part of a wider conspiracy related to the Kennedy assassination . In 1984, Estes' lawyer, Douglas Caddy, wrote to the Department of Justice claiming that Estes, Lyndon B. Johnson, Malcolm "Mac" Wallace, and Cliff Carter had been involved in the murders of Henry Marshall, George Krutilek, Harold Orr, Ike Rogers and his secretary, Coleman Wade, the president's sister Josefa Johnson, John Kinser and John F. Kennedy. Caddy added, "Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders."[6]

Estes agreed to provide supporting proof to the FBI, which proffered immunity in exchange but Estes ultimately refused to produce any evidence.

Critics suggest Estes' claims of his involvement in a wide conspiracy involving mass murder and political assassination were motivated by the desire of a convicted felon to deflect responsibility for his own criminal behavior and later as a means of generating publicity for the purpose of selling a book he had written.

Billie Sol Estes in popular culture

Folk-protest singer Phil Ochs wrote a song about the incident called "The Ballad of Billie Sol." Allan Sherman performed a parody folksong (co-written with Lou Busch): "Oh, Look What You've Done, Billie Sol, Billie Sol," as did Jesse Lee Turner: mp3.[7][8][9] The Chad Mitchell Trio performed "The Ides of Texas" about him as well. More recently, Houston-based singer/songwriter David Brake wrote the song "Swindler" about Estes and performed it with That Damn Band. Estes' professed active membership in the Churches of Christ was a cause of some discussion among his fellow parishioners.[10]

Notes

^ "Billie Sol Estes and the JFK assassination". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerB.html.

^ "Same reference above". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerB.html.

^ "The Estes Documents". http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/estes.htm.

^ "Henry Marshall". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmarshallH.htm.

^ Haley, J. Evetts (March 9, 1964), A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power, Palo Duro Press, ISBN 1568490097

^ Livingstone, Harrison (July 6, 2006), The Radical Right and the Murder of John F. Kennedy: Stunning Evidence, Trafford Publishing, ISBN 1412040558

^ http://rcs-discography.com/rcs/ss/09/ss9192.mp3

^ GNP Crescendo (RCS Label Listing) at rcs.law.emory.edu

^ Jesse Lee Turner: GNP Crescendo 188 at rcs.law.emory.edu

^ Leroy Garrett (1962 February), The Church of Billie Sol Estes, Restoration Review, Volume 4 Issue 2.

Further reading

Duscha, Julius (1964) Taxpayers' Hayride: The farm problem from the New Deal to the Billie Sol Estes case Little, Brown, Boston, Massachusetts, OCLC 360916

Estes, Billie Sol (2004) Billie Sol Estes: a Texas Legend BS Production, Granbury, Texas, OCLC 61207259; an autobiography

Estes, Pam (1983) Billie Sol: King of Texas wheeler-dealers Noble Craft Books, Abilene, Texas, ISBN 0-915733-00-5; a biography by his daughter

Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee (1966) Operations of Billie Sol Estes: eighth report by the Committee on Government Operations Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee, House Committee on Government Operations, United States Congress, Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., OCLC 35

Staff (25 May 1962) "Investigations: Decline & Fall" Time Magazine an account of the Billie Sol Estes scandal; Time cover: "The Billie Sol Estes Scandal" 25 May 1962

“Billie Sol Estes” is strongly related to:

Lyndon B. Johnson John F. Kennedy Estes v. Texas The Men Who Killed Kennedy Lou Busch J. T. Rutherford Ed Foreman Bruce Alger J. Evetts Haley Chad Mitchell Trio Reeves County, Texas Collateral Quota Felon Taylor County, Texas Allan Sherman Phil Ochs Pecos, Texas Ranch Accountant Hubert Humphrey Autopsy Bribery Fertilizer Carbon monoxide John F. Kennedy assassination United States Department of Agriculture Abilene, Texas Irrigation Ammonia United States Department of Justice Fraud Assassination Vice President of the United States Natural gas Federal Bureau of Investigation Cotton Prison Historian Suicide

Edited by William Plumlee
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I must agree, your information re the south side shot imo is entirely a different subject in it's own in the area of tosh and his observations in being there that day etc.but are ..two separate fields but similar and relating to each other in a very important way... and we need it to come together but not if tosh leaves though he has always been very open and wanting such looked into and released so it could have been time for the researchers to have had both side in otherwards but not if his bag has been packed, imo tosh i cannot understand your doing so, in the past i have broken a thread with other info and have been asked the same to start a new thread, and have done so, so have many others so you could also. it's no big deal....if you do want all out there so it can possibley be worked on and connected..sorry to repeat myself but this kind of thing cheeses me off and it shows as a rule...take care all i shall too...best b..

a couple of others b..the second one if from tosh's approximate area...of view ...

Interesting articles from some years back... in case anyone is interesting in reading it.

http://hobrad.angelfire.com/umbrella.html

UMBRELLA MAN

and

http://viswiki.com/en/Billie_Sol_Estes

Billy Sol ESTES

Billie Sol Estes (born 1924) was a scandal-ridden Texas-based financier best known for his association with U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson and for having accused Johnson of a variety of crimes, including the assassination of his presidential predecessor, John F. Kennedy.[1]

Estes was born in Alanreed in west Texas. He amassed his fortune through the federal surplus grain program. After marrying in 1946, he moved to Pecos, the seat of Reeves County in southwest Texas, where he sold irrigation pumps powered by natural gas. He channeled those profits to launch still another successful business selling anhydrous ammonia fertilizer.[2] Mr. Estes currently lives in Granbury, Texas.

Fraud charges

In the late 1950s, the United States Department of Agriculture began controlling the price of cotton, specifying quotas to farmers. The limited production hurt Estes' businesses. He responded by expanding into cotton production himself. Over the next few years he developed a massive fraud, claiming to grow and store cotton that never existed, then using the cotton as collateral for bank loans. During this same period he became involved in Texas Democratic state politics and made political contributions to U.S. Senator and later Vice President of the United States Lyndon Johnson.[3]

On June 3, 1961, Estes' local contact at the Agricultural Stabilization and Conservation Service, Henry Marshall, was found dead in his car with five gunshot wounds on a remote part of his own ranch. County Sheriff Lee Farmer attributed Marshall's death to carbon monoxide poisoning brought about from a hose attached to the exhaust pipe of his car. The body was buried without an autopsy. The suicide verdict was later overturned.[4]

On April 4, 1962, Estes' accountant, George Krutilek, was found dead from carbon monoxide poisoning. Krutilek had been questioned by the FBI about Estes the day before.

Meanwhile, Lubbock attorney Warlick Carr, brother of future Attorney General Waggoner Carr, filed some thirty civil suits against Estes to reclaim damages.

As a result of these deaths and an investigation into his business practices, on April 5, 1962, Estes and several business associates were indicted by a federal grand jury on fifty-seven counts of fraud. Estes was accused of swindling investors, banks and the federal government of at least $24 million through false agricultural subsidy claims on cotton production and the use of non-existent supplies of anhydrous ammonia fertilizer as collateral for loans. He was eventually found guilty of additional federal charges and sentenced to fifteen years in prison.

Two of Estes' associates, Harold Orr and Coleman Wade, were also indicted but died of carbon monoxide poisoning (apparent suicides) before they went to trial. Estes was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to eight years in prison. Howard Pratt, manager of a Chicago fertilizer supply company, was also found dead in his car from an apparent carbon monoxide poisoning. There was also a half bottle of liquor in his car; however, after testing, no alcohol was present in Howard's body.

The high-profile case generated extensive national press coverage and was the first topic of President John F. Kennedy's press conference on May 17, 1962. As a result of the financial and political scandal, Kennedy apparently began to consider dropping Johnson as his running mate in the 1964 election. The political fallout extended to the election of Ed Foreman as a Republican to the United States House of Representatives from west Texas in 1962. At the time, he and Bruce Alger of Dallas were the only Texas Republican congressmen. There were twenty-two Democrats in the national delegation. Democratic incumbent J. T. Rutherford's ties to Estes were the main cause of his defeat. Foreman, however, was defeated two years later in the Johnson-Humphrey landslide.

Although Estes went to prison, his conviction was later overturned by the United States Supreme Court in Estes v. Texas, 381 U.S. 532 (1965). His appeal hinged upon television cameras and broadcast journalists having been allowed in the courtroom, depriving him of a fair trial. He prevailed by a narrow 5-4 vote.

Allegations and conspiracy theories

After his release from jail and LBJ's death, Estes began making allegations regarding Johnson. According to the authors of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, Estes claimed to have funneled millions of dollars into Johnson's pockets from the cotton allotment scam. Although some contributions are a matter of record, Johnson denied the bribery charges.

The Estes case also figures prominently in the best-selling book A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power by the Texas historian J. Evetts Haley.[5]

Estes later claimed Johnson was involved in a conspiracy to murder witnesses in the Estes trial as part of a wider conspiracy related to the Kennedy assassination . In 1984, Estes' lawyer, Douglas Caddy, wrote to the Department of Justice claiming that Estes, Lyndon B. Johnson, Malcolm "Mac" Wallace, and Cliff Carter had been involved in the murders of Henry Marshall, George Krutilek, Harold Orr, Ike Rogers and his secretary, Coleman Wade, the president's sister Josefa Johnson, John Kinser and John F. Kennedy. Caddy added, "Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders."[6]

Estes agreed to provide supporting proof to the FBI, which proffered immunity in exchange but Estes ultimately refused to produce any evidence.

Critics suggest Estes' claims of his involvement in a wide conspiracy involving mass murder and political assassination were motivated by the desire of a convicted felon to deflect responsibility for his own criminal behavior and later as a means of generating publicity for the purpose of selling a book he had written.

Billie Sol Estes in popular culture

Folk-protest singer Phil Ochs wrote a song about the incident called "The Ballad of Billie Sol." Allan Sherman performed a parody folksong (co-written with Lou Busch): "Oh, Look What You've Done, Billie Sol, Billie Sol," as did Jesse Lee Turner: mp3.[7][8][9] The Chad Mitchell Trio performed "The Ides of Texas" about him as well. More recently, Houston-based singer/songwriter David Brake wrote the song "Swindler" about Estes and performed it with That Damn Band. Estes' professed active membership in the Churches of Christ was a cause of some discussion among his fellow parishioners.[10]

Notes

^ "Billie Sol Estes and the JFK assassination". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerB.html.

^ "Same reference above". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerB.html.

^ "The Estes Documents". http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/estes.htm.

^ "Henry Marshall". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmarshallH.htm.

^ Haley, J. Evetts (March 9, 1964), A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power, Palo Duro Press, ISBN 1568490097

^ Livingstone, Harrison (July 6, 2006), The Radical Right and the Murder of John F. Kennedy: Stunning Evidence, Trafford Publishing, ISBN 1412040558

^ http://rcs-discography.com/rcs/ss/09/ss9192.mp3

^ GNP Crescendo (RCS Label Listing) at rcs.law.emory.edu

^ Jesse Lee Turner: GNP Crescendo 188 at rcs.law.emory.edu

^ Leroy Garrett (1962 February), The Church of Billie Sol Estes, Restoration Review, Volume 4 Issue 2.

Further reading

Duscha, Julius (1964) Taxpayers' Hayride: The farm problem from the New Deal to the Billie Sol Estes case Little, Brown, Boston, Massachusetts, OCLC 360916

Estes, Billie Sol (2004) Billie Sol Estes: a Texas Legend BS Production, Granbury, Texas, OCLC 61207259; an autobiography

Estes, Pam (1983) Billie Sol: King of Texas wheeler-dealers Noble Craft Books, Abilene, Texas, ISBN 0-915733-00-5; a biography by his daughter

Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee (1966) Operations of Billie Sol Estes: eighth report by the Committee on Government Operations Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee, House Committee on Government Operations, United States Congress, Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., OCLC 35

Staff (25 May 1962) "Investigations: Decline & Fall" Time Magazine an account of the Billie Sol Estes scandal; Time cover: "The Billie Sol Estes Scandal" 25 May 1962

“Billie Sol Estes” is strongly related to:

Lyndon B. Johnson John F. Kennedy Estes v. Texas The Men Who Killed Kennedy Lou Busch J. T. Rutherford Ed Foreman Bruce Alger J. Evetts Haley Chad Mitchell Trio Reeves County, Texas Collateral Quota Felon Taylor County, Texas Allan Sherman Phil Ochs Pecos, Texas Ranch Accountant Hubert Humphrey Autopsy Bribery Fertilizer Carbon monoxide John F. Kennedy assassination United States Department of Agriculture Abilene, Texas Irrigation Ammonia United States Department of Justice Fraud Assassination Vice President of the United States Natural gas Federal Bureau of Investigation Cotton Prison Historian Suicide

SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOUR FORUM> I tried to post this in the SOUTH KNOLL #2 thread in answer to Peter Lemkin's questions. It would not load or post.

[/color]

"... Tosh, do you remember anyone you were flying in or out with large communication devices such as that which seems to be under 'Gaitor's' jacket? Did Sergio have one that size and shape? ...".

Anws; YES. If you remember I told you that, "...the communications were not in place and things were all F'ed up... nobody was where they were supposed to be and the radios did not work right..". (note; the 'crystals' in the had held (walki-talkie type radios of the time) were not set to the same frequencies and some of the team could not communicate with each other because of this) Also, when you were working with Tom Wilson on the south side photo, I told you, and when I did talk very briefly on the phone in Boulder Colorado with Tom while you were there, I told him about the radio's and that Sergio had a radio and I had a clip board. This was in reference to the two objects Tom had said he had found in the picture that were in our hands.

You said I had a camara and I said after a heated debate that you were wrong, it was a "clip board for taking notes and diagrams. Sergio did have a walkie-talkie type radio. That was one reason I later told some that I thought it was Gator sitting on the curb .., and I also told you, ".. he (Gator) had a radio in his pocket", That was when Tom and others thought Gator had a gun..., and you sometime later,said it was indeed a gun. We debated, to put it mildly, that issue. I said it WAS not a gun. I again said no you it was a radio. I do remember.

Question: "...heard some talk that while not clear someONE was being waited for and some aspects of what was said made you think it might have been Oswald they were waiting for. ...".

That was some years later that I said, in answer to that question: "... I said it COULD have been Oswald, but I did not know for sure and that would be speculation on my part".... I did say I thought we were waiting on a "Marine", which Could have been Oswald but I did not know for sure. ( heard from basic talk from some of the crew) The impressions I had at the time there was no name that I knew of. As to who we were waiting for, in my mind at that time, it could have been anybody. I did think, in a passing thought, that it could have been Roselli. But nobody responded to that answer, or wainted to hear that.

Question: Also about the original flight plans back that changed and the mention of meeting-up with a former Eastern Pilot. Care to comment on that?

Answer: Yes. From what I remember the flight out of Dallas (no flight plan filed) was to originally fly back to Houston Texas where (I thought) I would go back to Florida on another flight and the DC-3 would be flown back to West Palm by an Eastern Airline pilot. I was told another flight out of Red Bird went to Wichita Falls, Texas near the AFB there.

Sometimes people just don't listen or read what is said. From my view point I feel some answers they do not want to hear or read. Perhaps because they just don't fit into the scope of things as they see them.

Edited by William Plumlee
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This sent to me via e-mail and cut and pasted without change from T. Plumlee:

Peter. I remember You, Jim Marrs, and I, going over this when we were marking the FBI FOIA pages in Arlington, Texas. Jim ask those questions. I'll do by best to recap the answers: As to who we were waiting for, in my mind at that time, it could have been anybody. I did think, in a passing thought, that it could have been Roselli. But nobody responded to that answer, or wainted to hear that.

Question: Also about the original flight plans back that changed and the mention of meeting-up with a former Eastern Pilot. Care to comment on that? Answer: Yes. From what I remember the flight out of Dallas (no flight plan filed) was to originally fly back to Houston Texas where (I thought) I would go back to Florida on another flight and the DC-3 would be flown back to West Palm by an Eastern Airline pilot. I was told another flight out of Red Bird went to Wichita Falls, Texas near the AFB there. Sometimes people just don't listen or read what is said. From my view point I feel some answers they do not want to hear or read. Perhaps because they just don't fit into the scope of things as they see them. [/color]

Wichita Falls, TX. I understand that's where Robert Oswald has lived for a very long time.

Kathy C

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This sent to me via e-mail and cut and pasted without change from T. Plumlee:

Peter. I remember You, Jim Marrs, and I, going over this when we were marking the FBI FOIA pages in Arlington, Texas. Jim ask those questions. I'll do by best to recap the answers: As to who we were waiting for, in my mind at that time, it could have been anybody. I did think, in a passing thought, that it could have been Roselli. But nobody responded to that answer, or wainted to hear that.

Question: Also about the original flight plans back that changed and the mention of meeting-up with a former Eastern Pilot. Care to comment on that? Answer: Yes. From what I remember the flight out of Dallas (no flight plan filed) was to originally fly back to Houston Texas where (I thought) I would go back to Florida on another flight and the DC-3 would be flown back to West Palm by an Eastern Airline pilot. I was told another flight out of Red Bird went to Wichita Falls, Texas near the AFB there. Sometimes people just don't listen or read what is said. From my view point I feel some answers they do not want to hear or read. Perhaps because they just don't fit into the scope of things as they see them. [/color]

Wichita Falls, TX. I understand that's where Robert Oswald has lived for a very long time.

Kathy C

Kathy: I was not aware of that. Anyone know how far from the airport he lived? Is he still alive? If so would he tell if Oswald was suppose to see him around that time? Thanks, Tosh

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TOSH YOU MAY BE INTERESTED IN THIS OLDER LINK AND http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9376

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/roswald.html

IT'S THE ROBERT OSWALD SHOW...B

2009 robert speaks...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://digg.com/world_news/Robert_Oswald_Speaks

2009

Edited by Bernice Moore
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TOSH YOU MAY BE INTERESTED IN THIS OLDER LINK AND http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9376

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/roswald.html

IT'S THE ROBERT OSWALD SHOW...B

2009 robert speaks...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://digg.com/world_news/Robert_Oswald_Speaks

2009

I noticed the last pha; "...Asked the same question, Max Steingrout believes it was LBJ, Hoover & rogue CIA elements...".

Thanks Bernice: I do appreciate your work, time, and postings. I have taken these past few days to answer a few questions, but now I must get back to my own projects and productions concerning the "Border Wars", here in Mexico. I will be traveling during the next few months.

Most of what I have had to say (Pro and Con) in reference to the JFK matter has been said by me over the years. It does no good for me to ask questions in reference to JFK.., and too, I see little interest in the South Knoll threads. You take care and the best to you and all. Tosh

Edited by William Plumlee
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yes many lean towards a lbj cia rogue connection..could be...take care on your many trips re the Border Wars stay safe...we will await your return and thank you for your information...as always..best b

Bernice: Just before I was to leave for Mexico, I checked the Forum and noticed an old posting had been brought forth, the DCM of 2006. I think it should be copied into the South Knoll thread. (have you notice how fast all this goes into the black hole of postings. Seems to me researchers cannot focus on any topic and reach an educated conclusions. I've got to run now...just a figure of speech.

Posted today Feb., 2010 on the DCM thread of Oct., 2006

"... Thanks Thomas for bringing an old thread to life. I think the DCM thread of long ago (2006) should be incorporated into the South knoll shooting threads. I have inserted one of my post from then, below. Sometimes when threads get pulled away from the original subject matter, valid information gets confused with the facts and statements are lost within speculations. Such is the case with previous postings and the South Knoll shooter of today.

In answer to your question: "... Was he signaling "The Boss Has Been Hit" to other members of the "abort team?" ...".

As you know we had radios that did not work and for all I know an alternate plan of communications between team members could have been in place and that is why all the strange waving etc. That too, is speculations. Perhaps we will never know. That is why some years ago I asked everybody who was anybody in reference to the assassination to see if they could tell if this man had fingers missing and that would go a long way in proving if that man was indeed Gator. As you can see that request went nowhere or never reached any kind of conclusion.

( I would like to clear one point: There was an argument about side arms. I said we had side arms. I was told that the bulge in DCM's clothing was a gun. I said no it was not a gun, but perhaps a radio. It was not meant that we did not have guns or side arms... the subject matter was about the bulge in the photo of which I said was perhaps a radio. We always carried side arms when we went on any UC mission, flying or otherwise.)

If any one cares to go back and read the past DCM post, of which you have brought forward, and I thank you for that, then I think they will help the new breed of researchers, which have came on the scene this past few years, to reach an educated guess as to what it all means . ...".

FROM 2006 POSTINGS:

"...

I can not find where I mentioned communications that we had, but from what I can remember I first told Senator Church's investigators in Phoenix Arizona, that we had 'Walkie Talkies" for communication with people on the north side of the plaza and communications were spotty at best. ( we had to keep pointing and facing toward the direction to receive and transmitt ) People were not where they were suppose to be and everything was all f'ed as to timing. I again told and Id theis fellow to those investigators and to Peter Lemkin and Jim Marrs in San Dieago and Texas in 1990.

We had communications and I think they were Motorola (new top of the line, small about 8" or 10"x 2" with telescoping ant.) Some of the team also carried side arms. (38 holstered, side arm shoulder mounted) I have ID this man as "Gator" and we have tried to see if he has fingers missing on one hand (not sure if it was left or right; can't remember, but I think right) I have always said he was part of the abort team, but everyone wants him to be a Cuban assassin. If there were Cubans and CIA higher up there that day, then could they have been there to help Stop the assassination? I know this is not popular, but I speculate; like others speculate. We all left the area very quitely and slowly after we had failed in the attempt to stop the assassination.

I could spend years answering these questions, and have... but they are always trying to convience me that I flew in the attack team or a mixture of both. I have always said "Could Be.. BUT. I NOT NOT BELIEVE THAT". AND from there we go to speculation and I am not allowed to voice what I believe even tho I was there. This Radio issue has been brought up every few years. Yes there was comunication devises used between personal in the Plaza that day. Its in my sworn testimony to the Senate and to researchers ITS THERE TO SEE in the photo's. However, keep in mind before these photos were released I was saying to the authorites that WE DID HAVE RADIOS and Side ARMS. AND I KNEW THIS MAN AS "GATOR" (1964; 1974' 1978; 1990; 1997; 2003; and NOW. What does it take?

Some ask this and then say I am lying. Again. THE MANS REAL NAME I DO NOT KNOW. HE WAS CALLED "GATOR". Anyone in military OPS used phoney names and never their real names while attatched to any operation and numbers when writen in reports. I had known him and of him before Dallas. He is NOT who everyone wants him to be.... TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. In the past some have decided, with NO evidence, to LEAVE it and continue to miss lead as they SPECULATE and sensationalize as to who this person is and what he is holding. secretly, ITS A DAMN RADIO. Sorry to bust a few bubbles. But that is the way it is. ...".

This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Oct 6 2006, 09:20 PM

Here is another old post:

"... QUOTE (Jack White @ Oct 4 2006, 03:35 AM)

Was the Cuban packing a sidearm? Look at the shape of the bulge.

Jack

That is, without a doubt, the best view of DCM I've seen to-date. Thank you.

I'm not sure it is a sidearm, but it could answer (quite easily) the question I had which was: "if he's using a radio in the other photographs, where did it go?" Walkie-Talkies from that era were substantially larger than today's, and were not as easy to conceal. If one was pocketed or belt-clipped under the jacket, it could very easily look like this.

No question, though, there is something under that jacket (other than the DCM himself)! ...".

This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Today, 08:22 AM

Edited by William Plumlee
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Tosh, some pages of images that you may want to inspect, if you haven't already:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...m=31&pos=43

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

I was told that The Cuban was making a fist and flashing a Victory sign at the limo to signify attempt 2 or to tell Greer where to stop. If this is true, The Cuban in most probability is "Gator." His V-sign wasn't a V sign at all. He was merely holding up the only 2 fingers he had. (The lower right corner photo)

Also in that photo the Umbrella Man's umbrella seems painted in.

Kathy C

post-5645-1267215092_thumb.jpg

Edited by Kathleen Collins
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I would have to go look to be sure, but I believe from memory that it's a pretty wide underpass and that a person standing where White was on the west side of the underpass over Elm could see someone behind the east winged banister at the south end.

FWIW, not if the sniper was crouched or prone

What difference would that make if the person was in White's line of sight behind the banister? If prone, the person could be even more likely to be spotted, since his body would be extended westward.

Ron:

I apologize. I have spent a lot of time in the south knoll area and know that it was a great spot to be concealed but I do not know who Officer White (what is his first name) is and where he exactly was allegedly standing.

Doug Weldon

Patrolman J.C.White was stationed on the bridge/overpass at the west end during his testimony to the W.C. he said he did not see the shooting as a train was blocking his view at that very moment .I thought it was several minutes befroe a train passed over the bridge?

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