Where in Altgens6 is LBJ?

[Bernice Moore]

found these in the files, i do not have a credit, but whomever, thanks..much...fwtaw...b

Edited October 19, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Martin Hinrichs]

I like Martin's take on where LBJ is yet I have a concern with it... In Bernice's image LBJ is wearing sunglasses... he may have taken them off yet we do not see the glasses' arms in Altgens6. It SEEMS that is the right place for him as he is indeed hugging the side of the car. Yet he seems awfully small given how close he should have been in the back of that car and how much larger than Lady B he was.... as well as being so far over to the right...

Thanks David

As the motorcade entered DP, Johnson had off his glasses as you can see in Willis 02.

Most parts of Johnson's head is not visible in Altgens6. Just the left forehead among a part of his left ear.

The most parts are hidden by Rufus Youngblood (by the shoulder and his head) who was sitting left of

Johnson (from Altgens POV) and not between Lady Bird and LBJ.

My very best to you

Martin

[Bill Miller]

So we are back to when I first pointed out which person was LBJ. The Agent is turned to his right which cases him to shift his body towards the driver and is probably in the process of getting up and back to the VP. I say this because I recall seeing someone up in the VP car as it enters the underpass in one of the films. In as much as it would make a good story - Johnson was obviously not ducking down before the shooting as someone proclaimed.

Bill

[Robert Harris]

I looked at this thread and what each person said concerning how they read the picture ... 'LBJ had already ducked' ... 'LBJ ducked down 40 seconds before the shooting' ... 'the photo has been retouched' ... 'the dark face is LBJ' ... all I was waiting for next was that the head I pointed out was too small to be human. (smile)

While there appears to have been a conspiracy, too much has been attributed to conspiracy because of mis-interpretation in reading the image. I'm glad that at least this matter was resolved.

Bill

Well, the only issue I was considering was the question of whether we see an upright LBJ in that photo. The Altens photo could not have been altered, because Altgens took his film directly to the AP, where it was processed and then wired out to hundreds of affiliated newspapers and magazines, before the authorities ever laid their hands on it.

And four people (Youngblood, Jacks, LBJ, and Ladybird) confirmed that Youngblood pushed LBJ down then. If memory serves, most of them said that happened after the first shot though of course, most witnesses only heard one of the early shots.

FWIW, I am not convinced that we are seeing an upright LBJ then, but I also fail to see why the issue is worth spending a lot of time on.

Hey there Robert....

I started the thread as an tangent to the GA=BDM thread since there is some question as to when Yarborough sees "the soldier hit the dirt" which he syas over and over was after the first shot.

Also after the first shot Rufus is supposed to have done his heroic deeds

By Altgens6, at z255, we ALL agree at least one shot if not two have been fired.

No one in that car looks as if they are reacting to anything, yet Yarborough does appear to be looking in the direction of the GK and where GA might be....

I like Martin's take on where LBJ is yet I have a concern with it... In Bernice's image LBJ is wearing sunglasses... he may have taken them off yet we do not see the glasses' arms in Altgens6. It SEEMS that is the right place for him as he is indeed hugging the side of the car. Yet he seems awfully small given how close he should have been in the back of that car and how much larger than Lady B he was.... as well as being so far over to the right...

So the point of examining this issue helps determine the GA bona fides. Both GA and Yarborough speak of dropping to the ground after the first shot "heard". If GA's shot is diff from Yarborough's then GA was not the guy he sees... if it is the same shot... GA cannot be standing and filming in Moorman.

I tend to discount anything Yarborough says about LBJ... just from an early reading of Manchester's book... they hated each other and I cannot think of any reason the Senator would support ANYTHING LBJ was supposed to have said. Given that... where is that lightening quick reaction on Rufus' part by z255? Does this suggest that from z205 till ?? we have no reaction at all in LBJ's car.

Going now to look for any image showing what Rufus claims to have happened...

I don't believe we can make a visual determination of where LBJ was in the Altgens photo, but after rereading Youngblood's report, I think I have to agree that by frame 255, he has not yet heard or at least recognized a gunshot. As I said many times over the years, none of the Secret Service agents heard anything that sounded like a rifle report, prior to frame 285, after which Hill leaped to the pavement, people started screaming and diving to the ground and all hell broke loose.

As for Arnold, I don't believe a word the man said. And had he actually told the truth about an encounter with one of the assassins, he (Arnold) should have been arrested, tried and convicted for his failure to promptly report the incident. But to the best of my knowledge, no-one has even been able to confirm that he was in Texas that day.

[David Josephs]

I don't believe we can make a visual determination of where LBJ was in the Altgens photo, but after rereading Youngblood's report, I think I have to agree that by frame 255, he has not yet heard or at least recognized a gunshot. As I said many times over the years, none of the Secret Service agents heard anything that sounded like a rifle report, prior to frame 285, after which Hill leaped to the pavement, people started screaming and diving to the ground and all hell broke loose.

As for Arnold, I don't believe a word the man said. And had he actually told the truth about an encounter with one of the assassins, he (Arnold) should have been arrested, tried and convicted for his failure to promptly report the incident. But to the best of my knowledge, no-one has even been able to confirm that he was in Texas that day.

Robert,

I've always enjoyed reading your posts and discussing with you... I'm a bit confused though about the bolded portion of your recent post.

Since Altgens 6 is approx z255... what then are three of these men turning around to see and why is Flyod on the radio? The SS behind the VP's car are reacting as well. Even Yarborough discusses how their reactions were slower than they should have been after the first gunshot he hears, but reactions there were and well before z285....

Hill does not leap to the pavement until just about z313 Robert... Here he is in Muchmoore just as he stepped off...

So I am more than a bit perplexed by these statements from you. Can you help me understand?

Thx

DJ

[David Josephs]

Thanks Martin,

I began to think the other photo was not from that motorcade, but I'm not sure.

And agree completely, the way Altgens6 looks, the driver seems to be behind Ladybird and the Senator.

Best to you as well...

DJ

[Daniel Meyer]

Thanks Martin,

I began to think the other photo was not from that motorcade, but I'm not sure.

If you're talking about the Willis 02 posted by Martin Hinrichs above, it would have to be. I don't believe Jackie rode with JFK while wearing that now iconic pink outfit other than on the 22nd.

[Phil Nelson]

So we are back to when I first pointed out which person was LBJ. The Agent is turned to his right which cases him to shift his body towards the driver and is probably in the process of getting up and back to the VP. I say this because I recall seeing someone up in the VP car as it enters the underpass in one of the films. In as much as it would make a good story - Johnson was obviously not ducking down before the shooting as someone proclaimed.

Bill

Despite all of the commentary to the contrary, I don't see anything nearly resembling Johnson in any of the photos, except for the first one Duncan posted which appears to have been "enhanced" by someone having a good working knowledge of Photoshop. In the one subsequently posted by Robert Harris, it is clear that the dark "blob" that magically showed Lyndon's "ear" does not appear anywhere in the unaltered version of the photo; it was after this was called to his attention that he then bought into Bill Miller's theory.

If there is one thing we should be able to agree on, nothing about that part of the car is clear enough for anyone to effectively declare that LBJ's placement there has now "been resolved." Looking at it objectively, one can simply not make a convincing case that he is visible at all, given the lack of any definitive facial features (If I'm missing them, please furnish the proof). It is only through subjective interpretation that some are able to satisfy themselves that Johnson is there somewhere; this is pretty much what I conceded in the book: that some people can be expected to use a sliver of anything as the basis of "finding Lyndon." At the very least, some acknowledgment of this subjectivity would be expected, rather than the unqualified declarations of resolution.

If anything, this colloquy has only generated more questions - and a lot of speculation - about who is where. My own humble opinion is that Johnson is nowhere in the photograph, and I've taken the liberty to note on the photo Harris posted what I think I see: The symmetrical lines in the background appear to be a lady's coat who is standing in the background; The bodies appear disconnected from the heads (above the windshield) due to the curvature of the windshield glass, through which the bodies (but not the heads) are visible. I do think that Youngblood's arm might be stretched out, resting on the top of the seat-backs, as noted. But if that is the case, his head would clearly not be the spot indicated by Bill Miller; it would still be behind the motorcycle's windshield and he is therefore not visible.

As far as disbelieving anything Yarborough said, I think he was the only one being entirely truthful (as explained in my book). . .Johnson was known to be a pathological xxxx, so why anyone would believe him over anyone else is debatable, to say the least. And lastly, the stoic expressions on Lady Bird's and Yarborough's faces belie the notion that Youngblood has reacted significantly. If he had already, or was in the process of, jumping into the back seat (something that Yarborough denied ever happening) don't you think they would have a more perplexed look on their faces? As far as other SS agents reacting already, that has not been demonstrated either: There are other pictures of the open door on the white car following Johnson's all through downtown where it was propped open. And the SS agents in the Queen Mary (in between JFK's and LBJ's car) are doing nothing other than what they did throughout the motorcade - looking all around them, front, behind, sides, just as they always do. The fact that some are looking backwards in that photo does not indicate that they are reacting to anything.

I don't think the solution to this issue has been advanced whatsoever by this thread (other than getting a number of theories postulated and on the record). Some of the conclusions being expressed do seem to be a bit more "final" than is justified by the arguments being made, given that the "resolution" is as far from being proven as it was from the start.

[Bill Miller]

I don't believe we can make a visual determination of where LBJ was in the Altgens photo, but after rereading Youngblood's report, I think I have to agree that by frame 255, he has not yet heard or at least recognized a gunshot. As I said many times over the years, none of the Secret Service agents heard anything that sounded like a rifle report, prior to frame 285, after which Hill leaped to the pavement, people started screaming and diving to the ground and all hell broke loose.

If what Agent Bennett said was true, then whether it sounded like a firecracker or gunfire ... he certainly called that sound a gunshot for he saw it hit JFK in the shoulder and this comes well before Altgens 6 which was taken well before Z285.

SS Agent Bennett: ..... At the moment I looked at the back of the President I heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder.

As for Arnold, I don't believe a word the man said. And had he actually told the truth about an encounter with one of the assassins, he (Arnold) should have been arrested, tried and convicted for his failure to promptly report the incident. But to the best of my knowledge, no-one has even been able to confirm that he was in Texas that day.

Arnold never said he encountered one of the assassins as you are claiming. Arnold said a shot came from behind him and he hit the ground. There were lots of people who didn't give an interview as to the direction they thought gunfire had come, while at the same time there were others who did. All Arnold said was that he turned his film over to a hat-less policeman and it wasn't until he was shown the Badge Man work of Jack White and Gary Mack did he first believe that he may have seen one of the shooters.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Despite all of the commentary to the contrary, I don't see anything nearly resembling Johnson in any of the photos, except for the first one Duncan posted which appears to have been "enhanced" by someone having a good working knowledge of Photoshop. In the one subsequently posted by Robert Harris, it is clear that the dark "blob" that magically showed Lyndon's "ear" does not appear anywhere in the unaltered version of the photo; it was after this was called to his attention that he then bought into Bill Miller's theory.

Johnson's seating height to Lady Bird in Altgens6 where I pointed out his ear and hairline is just as it can be seen in the beginning of the Nix film that shows the VP riding down the street. In a good clear print one should be better able to see what I have pointed out. The man in the front seat seen in profile is Rufus Youngblood and what is hiding the face of LBJ is the sun visor. I can however understand some peoples confusion when looking at lesser quality prints and it being a hindrance for them. The same sort of thing happened years ago over the grainy appearance of the shirt worn by the man in the doorway which was reported to be Billy Lovelady. Some thought that Billy was wearing a different shirt in Altgens6 than the one he is seen wearing at the police station. That all ended when I took a crop from Josiah Thompson's Altgens6 print and laid the more visible plaid design on the shirt seen on Josiah's print against the police station photo of Billy in the same plaid shirt.

In the end, the lesser quality images have shown that they can make for lengthy unnecessary debate that doesn't usually come when studying the better print. The UPI photo print of Moorman's photo Vs. the Drum Scan that so many use to try and claim there is no human figures seen on the knoll.

Bill

Edited October 20, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Phil Nelson]

Despite all of the commentary to the contrary, I don't see anything nearly resembling Johnson in any of the photos, except for the first one Duncan posted which appears to have been "enhanced" by someone having a good working knowledge of Photoshop. In the one subsequently posted by Robert Harris, it is clear that the dark "blob" that magically showed Lyndon's "ear" does not appear anywhere in the unaltered version of the photo; it was after this was called to his attention that he then bought into Bill Miller's theory.

Johnson's seating height to Lady Bird in Altgens6 where I pointed out his ear and hairline is just as it can be seen in the beginning of the Nix film that shows the VP riding down the street. In a good clear print one should be better able to see what I have pointed out. The man in the front seat seen in profile is Rufus Youngblood and what is hiding the face of LBJ is the sun visor. I can however understand some peoples confusion when looking at lesser quality prints and it being a hindrance for them. The same sort of thing happened years ago over the grainy appearance of the shirt worn by the man in the doorway which was reported to be Billy Lovelady. Some thought that Billy was wearing a different shirt in Altgens6 than the one he is seen wearing at the police station. That all ended when I took a crop from Josiah Thompson's Altgens6 print and laid the more visible plaid design on the shirt seen on Josiah's print against the police station photo of Billy in the same plaid shirt.

In the end, the lesser quality images have shown that they can make for lengthy unnecessary debate that doesn't usually come when studying the better print. The UPI photo print of Moorman's photo Vs. the Drum Scan that so many use to try and claim there is no human figures seen on the knoll.

Bill

I don't mean to be argumentative about this, Bill, and with all due respect, I've probably looked at that photo as much as any other person alive and the annotated photo above, as described separately, is what I have seen all along.

In buying the rather expensive license to enable me to include this photo in the book (multiple times) I bought the highest quality digital photograph available (which of course would be impossible to put on here). Though the image is sharper, I don't seen anything materially different in that compared to the copy above (naturally, there is degradation in all of them as the image is cropped and magnified).

The only part that I'm unsure about still is that "horizontal" line across the top of the seat back: I stated earlier that it could be Youngblood's arm stretched across there just before he turns around to commence his orders to all three to "get down." OR, it might be Lyndon Johnson's back as he begins to "duck" behind the seat.

[David Josephs]

Thanks Martin,

I began to think the other photo was not from that motorcade, but I'm not sure.

If you're talking about the Willis 02 posted by Martin Hinrichs above, it would have to be. I don't believe Jackie rode with JFK while wearing that now iconic pink outfit other than on the 22nd.

Thanks... was actually speaking of the photo where LBJ has the dark glasses on. That one doesn't seem to be from 11-22-63

DJ

[Bernice Moore]

hi david the one i posted with lbj dark glasses on i went looking for other copies, that work was done for us by chris davidson, in another thread,, he has it titled in zap, seeing that he is so good at what he does, i am not going to discount the work as not being from the elm street corner from the film, i will contact him and include a copy and will see what he has to say,for my own information as well as for yours, i will get back to you when i recieve a reply...but that is how it is marked, thanks b

Edited October 20, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[David Josephs]

From the way one reads Phil's post one could assume he thinks LBJ is really not there...

This is not what I was asserting in starting the thread... he is of course there. I assume he meant that the photo may have been altered... on that I prefer not to comment.

Are you implying that Rufus claims he did these things at the urging of LBJ??? Even though he'd know the record and witnesses would not support the story? That too makes little sense... Rufus was very specific about what he says he did.

I heard an explosion--I was not sure whether it was a firecracker, bomb, bullet, or other explosion. I looked at whatever I could quickly survey, and could not see anything which would indicate the origin of this noise. I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the Presidential follow-up car were abnormal. I turned in my seat and with my left arm grasped and shoved the Vice President, at his right shoulder, down and toward Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough. At the same time, I shouted

"get down!" I believe I said this more than once and directed it to the Vice President and the other occupants of the rear seat. They all responded very rapidly.

I quickly looked all around again and could see nothing to shoot at, so I stepped over into the back seat and sat on top of the Vice President. I sat in a crouched position and issued orders to the driver. During this time, I heard two more explosion noises and observed SA Hickey in the Presidential follow-up car poised on the car with the AR-15 rifle looking toward the buildings. The second and third explosions made the same type of sound that the first one did as far as I could tell, but by this time I was of the belief that they definitely were shots--not bombs or firecrackers. I am not sure that I was on top of the Vice President before the second shot--he says I was. All of the above related events, from the beginning at the sound of the first shot to the sound of the third shot, happened within a few seconds.

As far as other SS agents reacting already, that has not been demonstrated either:....

And the SS agents in the Queen Mary (in between JFK's and LBJ's car) are doing nothing other than what they did throughout the motorcade - looking all around them, front, behind, sides, just as they always do. The fact that some are looking backwards in that photo does not indicate that they are reacting to anything.

I have to disagree with you here Phil. A Zfilm shows the 2 agents nearest the TSBD slightly scan the area but do not react as they are photographed in Alt6, turning their heads completely around, nor do the others "not" react differently than simply scanning the crowd.

There is most definitely a reaction recorded by z255 that is outside the ordinary. The zfilm frame is 200, the last with the agents visible.

And I maintain that some of the timing/BDM/GA issues can begin to resolve themselves. If Yarborough remembers a man hitting the dirt at the first shot HE hears, and he hears 2 more shots.... GA, if the man he refers to as Bill asserts, must already be on the ground by Moorman. If this was a different person referred to, then GA has one less supporter for his story. Either way, the mystery of BDM and GA and the black couple and the coke remains intact.... for now.

DJ

btw Phil... just receieved your book along with Douglass' and Manchester's.... quite an interesting threesome of perspectives.

Now I just need the time to read...

[Bill Miller]

The only part that I'm unsure about still is that "horizontal" line across the top of the seat back: I stated earlier that it could be Youngblood's arm stretched across there just before he turns around to commence his orders to all three to "get down." OR, it might be Lyndon Johnson's back as he begins to "duck" behind the seat.

No matter how one looks at it or how long - the left ear and hairline seen just to our left of the Agent who is twisting to his right to turn around and appears waist high to the women standing along the street is LBJ.

LBJ was right against the door panel with his arm over it as they neared the corner (see VP in the Nix film heading down Houston Street). The Agent in Altgens6 appears to me to be turning to his right and to do so to get up and turned around it makes sense that he has leaned slightly towards the driver so to complete the action. Isn't that what everyone does when trying to turn all the way around in their seat.

It's interesting about the amount of time one takes in studying something and how that applies to accomplishing something for I am reminded how some kids finished high school in three years and some took five ... I guess the question is if the five year student took two years longer than the three year student to finish a 4 year tenure ... does that mean the five year student learned more?

I am also reminded of another example where the class was once handed an blot-image to look at and they were to write down on a piece of paper what they thought they could see and pass it on. This one kid named Tommy couldn't figure it out and didn't make anything out of the picture, but when the picture was handed back to him and he was told to rotate it 180 degrees ... he got it!

The moral of the story wasn't about amount of time spent doing something, but rather the way one went about assessing the information they had before them.

Bill

Edited October 21, 2010 by Bill Miller