David Josephs Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 David Josephs How can you even comment on what Moorman was doing during the shooting when you have no clue what she was doing after the shooting! You cant even tell that Moorman is talking to Jim Featherstone and showing her the pictures that she took! "I ran to Dealey Plaza, a few yards away, and this is where I first learned the president had been shot. I found two young women, Mary Moorman and Jean Lollis Hill, near the curb on Dealey Plaza. Both had been within a few feet of the spot where Kennedy was shot, and Mary Moorman had taken a Polaroid picture of Jackie Kennedy cradling the president's head in her arms. It was a poorly focused and snowy picture, but, as far as I knew then, it was the only such picture in existence. I wanted the picture and I also wanted the two women's eyewitness accounts of the shooting. I told Mrs. Moorman I wanted the picture for the Times Herald and she agreed. I then told both of them I would like for them to come with me to the courthouse pressroom so I could get their stories and both agreed. . . . I called the city desk and told Tom LePere, an assistant city editor, that the president had been shot. "Really? Let me switch you to rewrite," LePere said, unruffled as if it were a routine story. I briefly told the rewrite man what had happened and then put Mary Moorman and Jean Lollis Hill on the phone so they could tell what they had seen in their own words. Mrs. Moorman, in effect, said she was so busy taking the picture that she really didn't see anything. Mrs. Hill, however, gave a graphic account of seeing Kennedy shot a few feet in front of her eyes." How do you not know that?! Why are you even asking if that is Mary Moorman talking to "someone" You make every CT look stupid by not even having basic knowledge about what photos Moorman is even in! Edit: For a free history lesson the photo was taken by Frank Cancellare Thanks for your comment Dean... I am sure you know everything there is to know about each and every piece of the assassination so I appreciate you letting us know that you know.... "She stated that as the President's car drove off she started to leave the grassy area and was stopped by a Mr. FEATHERSTONE, a newspaper man with the KRLD Radio and TV Station who questioned her concerning her observance of the incident. " Look at that... learn something new everyday... that piece of info should help make or break the case for sure, right Dean? How again is knowing this little tidbit going to change the proof that Moorman was on the grass or not when she took her last photo? Do we really need to start off with a pissing match over how much you know versus how much I know about each piece of minutia in this case? I had always assumed that was Moorman... and also felt that was Hunt in the trenchcoat at the bottom left... again, so what? Do we need to know where Zapruder ran off after the assassination to know he was on the pedastal or not? Why all the hostility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Jean Hill or not Jean Hill... This guy on the third floor of the county criminal courts building, this interrogator, SAW her IN THE STREET... Remember? Quote Hostile Interrogator: WHAT WHERE YOU DOING OUT IN THE STREET IN THE FIRST PLACE?(SIC) Hill: I was trying to get him to turn toward me. Close Quote This was 15 minutes after the shooting... We got therefore three independent accounts for that fact (Hill Moorman in the Street) not seen on the crappy-Zappi Film... Hill Moorman Unknown Interrogator... KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Jean Hill or not Jean Hill... This guy on the third floor of the county criminal courts building, this interrogator, SAW her IN THE STREET... Remember? Quote Hostile Interrogator: WHAT WHERE YOU DOING OUT IN THE STREET IN THE FIRST PLACE?(SIC) Hill: I was trying to get him to turn toward me. Close Quote This was 15 minutes after the shooting... We got therefore three independent accounts for that fact (Hill Moorman in the Street) not seen on the crappy-Zappi Film... Hill Moorman Unknown Interrogator... KK What about these quotes leads to the conclusion they are talking about the last photo? and if this was the case, how do we not see them stepping back up onto the curb in Muchmoore? Seems the way she says it she stepped back up onto the grass after photo #4... and was no where near the street by the time Altgens was taken at z255 Same with Jean... from the second she appears in Zap she is stationary other than her looking at her boyfriend.... And this doesn't even take into account the analysis of the photo that places her in the grass... Funny, Jean's boyfriend JB Marshall was never even called to testify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I agree, and nicely done Mr. Josephs. I am so tired of listening to this. When she took her famous photo, Mary was not in the street, OK. Now, here is a real question to ask oneself: where is the original Moorman and who has it? Further, what is on it? If anything. From my sources, there is an interesting story about all this. Don't you mean, WHAT'S LEFT of the original Moorman? And if you have an interesting story why beat around the bush about it? Edited July 1, 2011 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Well Craig you are actually half right about that. What is left of the original Mary M photo? And who has it? The reason I am beating around the bush is that we are preparing a story on this for CTKA. I'm sure that will be yet another winner... [/sarcasm} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Gallup Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) Jean Hill or not Jean Hill... This guy on the third floor of the county criminal courts building, this interrogator, SAW her IN THE STREET... Remember? Quote Hostile Interrogator: WHAT WHERE YOU DOING OUT IN THE STREET IN THE FIRST PLACE?(SIC) Hill: I was trying to get him to turn toward me. Close Quote This was 15 minutes after the shooting... We got therefore three independent accounts for that fact (Hill Moorman in the Street) not seen on the crappy-Zappi Film... Hill Moorman Unknown Interrogator... KK What about these quotes leads to the conclusion they are talking about the last photo? and if this was the case, how do we not see them stepping back up onto the curb in Muchmoore? Seems the way she says it she stepped back up onto the grass after photo #4... and was no where near the street by the time Altgens was taken at z255 Same with Jean... from the second she appears in Zap she is stationary other than her looking at her boyfriend.... And this doesn't even take into account the analysis of the photo that places her in the grass... Funny, Jean's boyfriend JB Marshall was never even called to testify... I have never personally taken a position on Moorman in the street, but it seems to me that this issue is possibly tied to the limo stop, something I have taken a strong position on viz., that the limo did in fact stop, and a flurry of shots seemed to have taken place during the short stop, if I understand Hill's testimony correctly. If the limo stopped then there would have been time for Mary to step into the street, if that is what in fact she did. And other things could have happened. For instance I am puzzled by her references to what sounded like a firecracker inside the limo. If anyone did fire inside the limo during the stop then record of it has vanished from history. At the very least, a lot of issues are tied to removal of the limo stop in all the films. But a bone must be thrown to the non-alterationist side: I did find Bill Miller's examination of the windshild height very persuasive, and anyone insisting Moorman was in the street has to answer his good work. Respectfully, Daniel Edited July 1, 2011 by Daniel Gallup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Phelps Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) The "Bill Miller" motorcycle windshield height issue is not impeachable. She was standing on the grass for that photo. Zapruder's film is fine. As, for any speculation per Z-alterations, there is this challenge issue of take the Zapruder Film and make a fake. Let Arlen Spector become the Limo's driver. Put LBJ into the Lemo's right front seat and demonstrate issues of how a film could be faked. Put Mariyln Monroe in place of Jean Hill and put both the girls in the street to get run down by the motorcycle. That would be hilarious to watch. Unfortunately, since all the other films support that Zapruder is what it is, the alteration gang has slowly grown long noses as now they are up to claiming all photos and all films were remade to support Zapruder. It is now utter wild speculation that can't be sustained. Was it not Bob Harris who challenged: Show us by making a faked up Z-film. We've not seen a demo of that yet, and it will also have to go change every single film and photo to match. It is virtually impossible to fake a Zapruder Film because for each image frame the succeeding and the preceeding frames are interlocked by the lense overshine into the sprocket area. The transition areas in the spocket area has two photos on top of each other---which ties each adjacent frame together. Anyone that has done the close examination of Zapruder finds the issues of the Limo stopped were more slips of the tongue from people in shock for the extremes of violence they just witnessed. It is like Stop Signs, everyone tells they stop at them, but a good many do rolling stops. Most think that for the SS agent to get to the Limo the Limo had to stop, it never stopped and the SS agent had to run. Cars further back in the procession could well have stopped as Algen's captures a White Four Door with doors opening and that one likely stopped to let the agents out of the car. Zapruder is still solid as the Rock of Gibralta. IMHO---a few still exploit slips of the tongue and fail to integrate each witness into the whole of the scene and other evidence. Edited July 1, 2011 by Jim Phelps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Thanks for your comment Dean... I am sure you know everything there is to know about each and every piece of the assassination so I appreciate you letting us know that you know You're very welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Hinrichs Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 It's amazing how most CT and LN are much more interested about the issue of where Moorman was standing, than about the fact that she heard two shots after the head shot. Let's drive that point home. She would be a great witness for the defense in a hypothetical trial against LHO. Thats a real good point, Andric. David, she stood in the street as McBride passed by and took her #3 photo that day but went a moment later back onto the grass to take photo number 5. The famous one. I made a 3D study of it some time ago. I spend of lot of time for it. http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=pages;sa=2<br /> In case you don't have access to the Article, please let me know. You have to be registered on Duncan's Forum so see it. best to you both Andric & David. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 The "Bill Miller" motorcycle windshield height issue is not impeachable. She was standing on the grass for that photo. Zapruder's film is fine. As, for any speculation per Z-alterations, there is this challenge issue of take the Zapruder Film and make a fake. Let Arlen Spector become the Limo's driver. Put LBJ into the Lemo's right front seat and demonstrate issues of how a film could be faked. Put Mariyln Monroe in place of Jean Hill and put both the girls in the street to get run down by the motorcycle. That would be hilarious to watch. Unfortunately, since all the other films support that Zapruder is what it is, the alteration gang has slowly grown long noses as now they are up to claiming all photos and all films were remade to support Zapruder. It is now utter wild speculation that can't be sustained. Was it not Bob Harris who challenged: Show us by making a faked up Z-film. We've not seen a demo of that yet, and it will also have to go change every single film and photo to match. It is virtually impossible to fake a Zapruder Film because for each image frame the succeeding and the preceeding frames are interlocked by the lense overshine into the sprocket area. The transition areas in the spocket area has two photos on top of each other---which ties each adjacent frame together. Anyone that has done the close examination of Zapruder finds the issues of the Limo stopped were more slips of the tongue from people in shock for the extremes of violence they just witnessed. It is like Stop Signs, everyone tells they stop at them, but a good many do rolling stops. Most think that for the SS agent to get to the Limo the Limo had to stop, it never stopped and the SS agent had to run. Cars further back in the procession could well have stopped as Algen's captures a White Four Door with doors opening and that one likely stopped to let the agents out of the car. Zapruder is still solid as the Rock of Gibralta. IMHO---a few still exploit slips of the tongue and fail to integrate each witness into the whole of the scene and other evidence. me thinketh Mr. Phelps since you accepted this assignment you protesteth way too much. Z-frames were transposed, that is a given, now what do you call that, son? And for what reason? IF that happened, what else, Dude...? alteration [ˌɔːltəˈreɪʃən] n 1. an adjustment, change, or modification 2. the act of altering or state of being altered You're living by faith in flawed evidence, Mr. Phelps. A long term, lone nut failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Z-frames were transposed, that is a given, Silly boy...tricks are for kids..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 The "Bill Miller" motorcycle windshield height issue is not impeachable. She was standing on the grass for that photo. Zapruder's film is fine. As, for any speculation per Z-alterations, there is this challenge issue of take the Zapruder Film and make a fake. Let Arlen Spector become the Limo's driver. Put LBJ into the Lemo's right front seat and demonstrate issues of how a film could be faked. Put Mariyln Monroe in place of Jean Hill and put both the girls in the street to get run down by the motorcycle. That would be hilarious to watch. Unfortunately, since all the other films support that Zapruder is what it is, the alteration gang has slowly grown long noses as now they are up to claiming all photos and all films were remade to support Zapruder. It is now utter wild speculation that can't be sustained. Was it not Bob Harris who challenged: Show us by making a faked up Z-film. We've not seen a demo of that yet, and it will also have to go change every single film and photo to match. It is virtually impossible to fake a Zapruder Film because for each image frame the succeeding and the preceeding frames are interlocked by the lense overshine into the sprocket area. The transition areas in the spocket area has two photos on top of each other---which ties each adjacent frame together. Anyone that has done the close examination of Zapruder finds the issues of the Limo stopped were more slips of the tongue from people in shock for the extremes of violence they just witnessed. It is like Stop Signs, everyone tells they stop at them, but a good many do rolling stops. Most think that for the SS agent to get to the Limo the Limo had to stop, it never stopped and the SS agent had to run. Cars further back in the procession could well have stopped as Algen's captures a White Four Door with doors opening and that one likely stopped to let the agents out of the car. Zapruder is still solid as the Rock of Gibralta. IMHO---a few still exploit slips of the tongue and fail to integrate each witness into the whole of the scene and other evidence. me thinketh Mr. Phelps since you accepted this assignment you protesteth way too much. Z-frames were transposed, that is a given, now what do you call that, son? And for what reason? IF that happened, what else, Dude...? alteration [ˌɔːltəˈreɪʃən] n 1. an adjustment, change, or modification 2. the act of altering or state of being altered You're living by faith in flawed evidence, Mr. Phelps. A long term, lone nut failing. I think it also interesting that the ''same'' frames were transposed in Nix (?). that's 2 out of three the third incomplete (much more so anyway) in an official government publication ultimately the responsibility of judge Warren. (LBJ, and the world at first got the report.) I suggest the contradictory rest is so seemingly ''sloppy'' in supporting the report that it has made it possible to always consider Katzenbach's memo unfulfilled, unless there is a recognition of its flaws and a real investigation is carried out and people ARE satisfied and therefore it is a real pro conspiracy publication in toto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) I agree, and nicely done Mr. Josephs. I am so tired of listening to this. When she took her famous photo, Mary was not in the street, OK. Now, here is a real question to ask oneself: where is the original Moorman and who has it? Further, what is on it? If anything. From my sources, there is an interesting story about all this. JIM THE Moorman is at the tsbd.this video was from 2010 I believe when she tried to sell it on e Bay, that didn't work out, So it is still under their care... YouTube - JFK Assassination Mary Moorman speaks about selling her famous polaroid photograph -- from google; '' Wapedia - Wiki: Mary Moorman You +1'd this publicly. Undowapedia.mobi/en/Mary_Moorman - Cached28 Dec 2010 – eBay Auction of Polaroid. Mrs. Krahmer attempted to auction her famous Polaroid through the website eBay for an asking price of $225000. It did not sell. ... JFK Online: Badge Man and the Mary Moorman Polaroid. ...'' Edited July 2, 2011 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Lifton Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 [snip] If you go to the CBS show DSL has given the link to, you will find that Moorman is only interviewed for a very short time... a number of seconds. I did my time with Dan Rather over several CBS shows and the problem is CBS controls the cuts. I was appalled a couple of times when I saw how CBS cut what I said. The same probably applies here to Mary Moorman. We have no idea what she said, say, a minute and one-half later, that was left on the cutting room floor. (2) [snip] No witness saw the motorcyclists do anything but what the photos and films showed they did... cruise down Elm Street right by the south curb. JT I'm writing this post primarily to address statement number (2)--above--but first, let me address these comments about Moorman. First of all, I thoroughly disagree with the notion that the film clip I cited is not adequate to make a very firm judgement as to what Mary Moorman said. Its right there on camera. She says she stepped into the street, and even points to the street. Theorizing about what may have been left on the cutting room floor will not change these facts. Whether she actually took her picture when she was standing in the street is another matter. What concerns me the most is that she repeatedly said she was standing in the street, and the Z film does not show her there. Let's now turn to point (2). The statement there is simply incorrect--i.e., the notion that all the cycles are shown to "cruise down Elm Street right by the south curb." First of all, the Nix film --particularly the Enhanced Nix Film (on YouTube)--provides a plethora of evidence that at least three of the cyclists stopped. Jackson and Cheney are on the right hand side, and the Enhanced Nix shows them stopped. It happens quickly. And you have to watch carefully when Nix pans to the right. (You see Cheney turning his head to the right). Also , on the left hand side of JFK’s car, you see Hargis stopping (and that movement is quick, because Nix pans to the left) More specifically, re Hargis: Hargis completely stopped his cycle, AND put the kickstand down, AND then ran over to the light pole (as shown in frames from the Bell film). AND then he ran back to his cycle, remounted, and scooted off towards the Underpass. Interviews conducted by one researcher, years ago, with Malcolm Summers (who is shown falling in the Z film) indicate that Hargis cycle actually tipped over, and that he had to then place it rightside up, before leaving it, in the street, and running over to the light pole. Other films show Hargis' cycle upright, and simply standing there (upright) with the kickstand down, as Hargis is about to leave it (and/or has already left it) and run towards the light pole (see Darnell's film). None of this is shown on the Z film. Anyway, my point is that not ONLY are there cycle cops who SAY that they stopped, but that the films show that Hargis left his cycle, upright, and went over to the north curb, stood there, looked up at the monument area, and then returned to his cycle. So the statement that all the cycles simply "cruise[d] down Elm Street right by the south curb" is simply incorrect. DSL 7/1/11; 6:50 PM PDT Los Angeles, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Phelps Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) I do think some folks don't understand the concept of a lense's field of vision and how that vision area tracks the JFK Limo. The Zapruder Lense did not have an ultra wide angle and the field of vision was pretty tight on the Limo. Zapruder's lense barely caught the SS agent jumping on the bumper of the Limo. Zapruder's lense was tracking the Limo, not the motorcycles. He didn't care about the motorcycles. The motorcycles were lagging so far behind when the SS agent jumped on the Limo's bumper that only some of the sprocket vision area catches one cycle slightly. Then it slows and leaves the Zapruder Sprocket view area as the SS agent connects. When the Motorcycle Cops stopped, the Zapruder lense was tracking the Limo and no knowledgable person would expect to see the stopped Motor cycles on the Zapruder Film. He panned on past them and left that view way behind. The subject was if the Limo stopped, not the follow cars and motorcycles. Obviously, the motorcycle cops got splashed with blood and brain and the other films show they stopped. But that has nothing to do with Zapruder's Images as that was way out of Zapruder's lense field of vision. Suggesting that the Zapruder Film does not show the stopped motorcycles shows up as a lacking for the understanding of the concept for the Lense field of vision angle. No lense expert that knows about cameras and lenses field of vision angle would even expect the motorcycle stops to be seen on the Zapruder Film. It just would not happen or be expected to happen. Likewise, if Moorman or Hill jumped on the pavement well ahead of the Limo, that also would not show up due to field of vision angle issues. They suggest the missing photo was done before the arms and fist up effect from the back shot hitting JFK, so that was around 4 seconds before the head shot and likely not in the Zapruder lense field of vision. None of these comments can beconsidered contradictory for the Zapruder Film, and the issues would never be expected to have been in the Camera's field of vision. Edited July 2, 2011 by Jim Phelps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now