Seth Kantor and Jack Ruby

[Ray Mitcham]

Here you go, Joe.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJRkoeGmEc

[Joe Bauer]

That's the one.

Thank you so much Ray.

The spirit of brotherhood and sisterhood on this forum is inspiring.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Bulman]

21 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

The Municipal Building opened in 1914.  It housed the Dallas City Hall, and in 1963, the Dallas Police Department.

"In the basement of this structure on November 24, 1963, Jack Ruby fatally shot Lee Harvey Oswald, alleged assassin of President John F. Kennedy".  Even the city of Dallas says "alleged"?

https://dallascityhall.com/government/citysecretary/archives/Pages/Archives_buildings.aspx 

I found substantiation of my memory in of all places, given the thread title, Seth Kantor's "The Ruby Cover - Up".

https://www.amazon.com/Ruby-Cover-Up-S-Kantor/dp/0821739204/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1538617063&sr=8-2&keywords=the+ruby+coverup&dpID=511E5tHKukL&preST=_SX258_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Kantor discussed the mater with 1963 DPD Police Chief Jesse Curry in 1976 in Curry's living room. They were acquainted well before 1963. pgs. 142-143. 

"I asked Curry if the large double door entrance to the station, near the ramp, was locked"  " No, he said.... I asked where the double doored street level entrance would have led Ruby, there were several uncharacteristic hesitations in Curry's answer for the only time in our two hour;  tape-recorded session."

…"Now there was one stairway from the street level of City Hall that went down to the basement there [Curry pauses to draw  sketch of  the stairway entering a vestibule area of the police station basement].     

[Roy Wieselquist]

On 9/23/2018 at 6:52 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Still, Ruby finds a perfect hiding place and up close lunging shooting position right behind his long time DP friend William Harrison?

Coincidence?

As Seth Kantor said, it was harder for him ( Kantor ) as a press person to be allowed into that basement that morning than it was for non-credentialed Jack Ruby.

And when big Blackie Harrison went down to get his cigars from a vending machine located closer to the Commerce street back entrance to the Police department basement and before Ruby arrived on the scene, it wouldn't be illogical to consider Ruby perhaps getting in that way with someone opening the right doors there. 

Joe Bauer above is how I get the "Occam's Razor" (simple) explanation for Ruby getting in the basement at the right place.  He definitely did not get in by the Main Street ramp, as the WARren COmmissioN says.  And it's so doubtful as to be impossible what Curry conjectured, that he got in by the big double doors near the ramp  -- BECAUSE there are other doors to go through that must have been guarded, AND stairs to go down.

Ruby had less than four minutes to get in place.  His Western Union money order was stamped 11:17, and he shot Ozzie at 11:21.  Witnesses saw Jack Ruby turn left on Main when he left the WU office, heading toward the Main Street ramp of the DPD.  No one saw him after that.  All he had to do was take another quick left and go down the alley between WU and DPD, heading toward Commerce.

And somewhere along in there, there must be a quick flight of stairs down to a lower level basement door that is security-locked from the outside; someone INSIDE must open it to let someone in from the outside.  Is that where Blackie's cigar machine is?  I can draw/see a picture of it clear as day, but I'm too technostupid to draw a diagram of it on this fancy compooter-mochine.

Ruby had to be through that security-door by 11:20 in order to get in place behind Harrison, King, Arnett, and Croy (at least 30 seconds).  And then there was at least a 30-second walk down the aisle, Jim Leavelle and what's-his-name escorting Smart Alek Oswaldskovitch to his doom.

By the way, there is a hilarious altering of the famous Ruby-shooting-Oswald photo on the Church of the Subgenius website.  It has Leavelle playing a double keyboard and Ruby playing a left-handed Stratocaster at that fatal moment.  Which is more believable than the War Con interpretation of the moment.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Roy Wieselquist

[Roy Wieselquist]

Image result for oswald band

Have y'all seen this? Three-man band: Leavelle on keyboards, Ozzie on lead vocals, Ruby on axe.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Roy Wieselquist

[Joe Bauer]

 

Expand

 

 

Casa Mañana is presenting Oswald: The Actual Interrogation from Nov. 9 – Nov. 17. This compelling performance examines the history and events surrounding the 48 hours that Lee Harvey Oswald was in the custody of the Dallas Police Department after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and coincides with the 50th anniversary of the momentous event.

Over the next few months leading up to the performance, we will be spotlighting individuals with a tie to those 48 hours in history.

Joe Harrison is son to William (Blackie) Harrison, who was a detective for the Dallas Police Department in 1963. Detective Harrison had been on the force for 11 years on the day Oswald was shot, and he was responsible for wrestling Jack Ruby to the ground.

"On the day Kennedy was shot, my dad had been seated at the far right-hand side of the head table at Market Center," Joe says. Market Center's Grand Courtyard was the destination of President Kennedy's motorcade on the day of his assassination. JFK was scheduled to give a speech to 2,600 people at the sold-out luncheon in which Detective Harrison was present.

Two days later, on the morning of Sunday, Nov. 24, Detective Harrison was assigned to keep people away from the cars and prisoner Oswald. Before his duty that morning, Detective Harrison walked across the street and had breakfast at the Deluxe Diner.

After breakfast he took his station in the basement. A crowd of police and press with live TV cameras gathered to witness as Oswald was brought to the basement at 11:21 a.m. on his way to a more secure county jail.

"Ruby slipped up behind my dad, and he had his hand on Ruby's hand when Ruby took the shot," Joe says. After Ruby fatally wounded Oswald with a .38 revolver, Detective Harrison wrestled Ruby to the ground and then took him to booking before returning to the basement to assist the other officers.

Ruby operated strip joints and dance halls in Dallas with minor connections to organized crime. He was later found guilty of murder with malice in association with killing Oswald and was sentenced to death. In 1966, the Texas Court of Appeals reversed the decision, but while awaiting a new trial Ruby died of lung cancer in a Dallas hospital.

Joe remembers watching everything unfold on television when he was 15 years old. "My father never liked to speak about what happened. He was close-lipped about the whole thing," Joe says.

[Ron Bulman]

Hey Joe.  Thanks for bumping this thread.  I'd completely forgot about the full Blackie Harrison story.  Read it near 40 years ago, right over my head at that time.  I went back to Kantor's Ruby Cover-Up.  

Two DPD officers were asked to take lie detector tests.  Vaughn, about Ruby coming down the ramp, passed every question first try.  Harrison, rumors from inside DPD, passed on from the Secret Service to the FBI, he took tranquilizers before the test to neutralize his reactions.  Result?  Inconclusive.

I didn't remember anything about Harrison and the cigar vending machine near the back stairs.

All of the Juvenile Bureau except Blackie left the 3rd floor about 11:10 heading to the basement for the transfer.  A few minute later heading down they encountered Blackie emerging from the sub-basement.  He later said he had gone to use the cigar vending machine.  

I've bought cigarettes from a vending machine but never seen one for cigars.

Another mention regards his unaccounted-for time before Oswald's assassination.

Did he escort Ruby to the railing with Cowboy Croy?

Edited Monday at 09:34 PM by Ron Bulman

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/1/2024 at 10:24 PM, Ron Bulman said:

All of the Juvenile Bureau except Blackie left the 3rd floor about 1:10 heading to the basement for the transfer.  A few minute later heading down they encountered Blackie emerging from the sub-basement.  He later said he had gone to use the cigar vending machine.  

I've bought cigarettes from a vending machine but never seen one for cigars.

Another mention regards his unaccounted-for time before Oswald's assassination.

Did he escort Ruby to the railing with Cowboy Croy?

Ron, it is a very interesting thread...is it not?

I remember TV commercials back in the early 60's advertising these small and thin sized - cigarette style cigars called Muriel? Sultry Edie Adams ( married to the comedian Ernie Kovaks ) used to plug them in a sexy almost negligee skimpy dress.

I'll see if I can paste up one or two of those old TV commercials. See below.

In the Oswald basement transfer videos and pictures, you can clearly see Big Blackie Harrison holding a Muriel Cigar type smoke in his hand as he first reaches out to grab Ruby.

And you can also see a crouched down Ruby hiding just inches behind the hulking Harrison right up to his leaping out to blast the mere feet away Oswald in his gut.

Cigar brands
• Edie Adams, actress and pitch-lady for Muriel Cigars
• Muriel Cigars Commercial, 1962 & 1963

 

Also, Ruby friend Bill "Blackie" Harrison's son Joe said his dad would never talk about that day when Ruby shot Oswald just feet from him.

WHY? Who wouldn't want to share their tale of being just feet from one of the most important and shocking historical events in American history? Harrison was one big tough guy cop. He surely saw many graphic brutal and bloody scenes in his long career as a Dallas motorcycle cop and then detective.

So, I can't believe that Harrison's reluctance to talk to his family about Ruby blasting Oswald just feet from him was due to some Post Traumatic Stress type anxiety.

My gut instinct guess is that Harrison's silence about the Oswald killing was due to his not wanting to open up any discussion of it where he might have been asked questions that he in no way wanted to answer.

Imagine if Big Blackie Harrison had made just one last security look at the press crush behind him just as Oswald was being led to him... and seen Jack Ruby crouching behind him?

What do you think Harrison would have said to Ruby? What could he have said except... "HEY...what the hell are YOU doing here? You don't have a press pass badge" ?

Ah, but Harrison was too fixated on looking at Oswald and didn't turn to see his strip joint owning friend who then jumped past him to eliminate the most important criminal suspect in American history.

An action that triggered the greatest suspicion of our government by tens of millions of Americans in our history who watched Ruby whack Oswald on live TV  ( like me ) or instant replays hundreds of times later throughout that day.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 09:49 AM by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/30/2004 at 11:01 PM, John Simkin said:

Seth Kantor was working for the Scripps-Howard newspaper group in Washington in November, 1963. However, in the early 1960s he worked for the Dallas Times Herald. While working in Dallas he became friendly with Jack Ruby who supplied him with the material for several stories that appeared in his newspaper.

Kantor was in the presidential motorcade when John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dealey Plaza. He arrived at Parkland Hospital while Kennedy was receiving medical care. Kantor testified before the Warren Commission that while in the hospital he entered into a conversation with Jack Ruby. It has been suggested that Ruby might have been involved in tampering with the evidence. Ruby denied he had been at the hospital and the Warren Commission decided to believe him rather than Kantor.

This seems very strange. Why would the Warren Commission believe Ruby over an awarding winning journalist.

In his book Who Was Jack Ruby (1978), Kantor examines the reasons why the Warren Commission seemed to be unwilling to carry out "an in-depth probe of Ruby's past". Kantor also provides information that suggests that Ruby was "allowed" into the Dallas Police Station so that he could kill Lee Harvey Oswald.

Kantor later wrote that after reading his book: "Burt W. Griffin, the Warren Commission attorney who developed these conclusions about Jack Ruby for the Warren Report, has changed his mind about Ruby not appearing at Parkland soon after the President had been brought there. Griffin, who since has become a judge in Ohio, now says "the greater weight of the evidence" indicates I did see Ruby at Parkland."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkantorS.htm

Burt W. Griffin ( one of the lead questioners Warren Commission attorneys ) admits Seth Kantor was telling the truth about meeting Jack Ruby at Parkland the afternoon of November 22nd, 1963 ???

THAT is a dynamite revelation.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

On 9/3/2024 at 1:43 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Burt W. Griffin ( one of the lead questioners Warren Commission attorneys ) admits Seth Kantor was telling the truth about meeting Jack Ruby at Parkland the afternoon of November 22nd, 1963 ???

THAT is a dynamite revelation.

 

JB--

Thanks for posting. 

Though I am not sure how Ruby would plant evidence. A WCC 6.5 slug? 

 

 

 

[Nick Bartetzko]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JB--

Thanks for posting. 

Though I am not sure how Ruby would plant evidence. A WCC 6.5 slug? 

 

 

 

I had thought that Ruby may have planted a bullet on what was possibly the Ronny Fuller stretcher in the hall. But with the Landis/Kinney claims, I now think there really was a bullet and it wasn't planted as a fake. The question now is if it was a "pointy" slug or really the 6.5 mm one, CE 399. I'm leaning toward the "pointy" slug. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

I had thought that Ruby may have planted a bullet on what was possibly the Ronny Fuller stretcher in the hall. But with the Landis/Kinney claims, I now think there really was a bullet and it wasn't planted as a fake. The question now is if it was a "pointy" slug or really the 6.5 mm one, CE 399. I'm leaning toward the "pointy" slug. 

NB-

Thanks for your collegial comment. 

I lean towards your view as well, possibly excepting the pointy-head slug angle. 

Landis, for what it is worth, claims he found a dome-headed slug, just like a WCC 6.5 mm.

If I stay true to my biases, then the "Deep State," or national security state was in flux on Nov. 22, caught off guard by events.

That would suggest Jack Ruby, evidently the sort of guy who liked to be where the action is, and ever make friends-associates-customers, attended Parkland Hospital as a looky-loo and to meet and talk with associates and neighbors. He was not following orders on Nov. 22. 

My guess is the pointy-head slug was unconnected to the JFKA. The real slug was the one found by Landis, put on JFK's stretcher, seen by a nurse, and eventually ended up as CE-399. 

Well, that's my guess. 

[Kevin Balch]

On 9/2/2024 at 11:43 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Burt W. Griffin ( one of the lead questioners Warren Commission attorneys ) admits Seth Kantor was telling the truth about meeting Jack Ruby at Parkland the afternoon of November 22nd, 1963 ???

THAT is a dynamite revelation.

 

Griffin just released a book in the past year. There is no indication in the reviews (including those by Dale Myers and Doug Horne) that Griffin now believes that Jack Ruby was at Parkland Hospital. It’s hard to believe that neither Myers nor Horne would have failed to mention this.

It’s hard to believe that Kantor was mistaken about encountering Ruby at Parkland.

It’s also hard to see why the WC was insistent that Kantor was mistaken as Ruby’s presence at Parkland would support their claim that Ruby was psychologically obsessed with the assassination from the beginning. Was it more important to cut off speculation that Ruby was in position to plant the magic bullet than speculation that Oswald was heading for Ruby’s apartment? Wouldn’t Ruby being at Parkland at the time Oswald was heading for Ruby’s apartment itself discount that there was a pre-arranged rendezvous between the two?

Finally, it’s hard to see how someone as flamboyant as Jack Ruby would not have been noticed by several people at Parkland.

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Oswald-Ruby-Politics-Prejudice-ebook/dp/B0C8DNRFMC/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

[Kevin Balch]

13 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If I stay true to my biases, then the "Deep State," or national security state was in flux on Nov. 22, caught off guard by events.

I agree. That’s why it’s possible there was a quick preview of the body before the official autopsy (and the reason for the shell game with the ambulances at Bethesda) and the Z-film was quickly looked at by NPIC.

I don’t believe the body was surgically altered beyond what was necessary for the autopsy or that the Z-film was altered.

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Griffin just released a book in the past year. There is no indication in the reviews (including those by Dale Myers and Doug Horne) that Griffin now believes that Jack Ruby was at Parkland Hospital. It’s hard to believe that neither Myers nor Horne would have failed to mention this.

It’s hard to believe that Kantor was mistaken about encountering Ruby at Parkland.

It’s also hard to see why the WC was insistent that Kantor was mistaken as Ruby’s presence at Parkland would support their claim that Ruby was psychologically obsessed with the assassination from the beginning. Was it more important to cut off speculation that Ruby was in position to plant the magic bullet than speculation that Oswald was heading for Ruby’s apartment? Wouldn’t Ruby being at Parkland at the time Oswald was heading for Ruby’s apartment itself discount that there was a pre-arranged rendezvous between the two?

Finally, it’s hard to see how someone as flamboyant as Jack Ruby would not have been noticed by several people at Parkland.

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Oswald-Ruby-Politics-Prejudice-ebook/dp/B0C8DNRFMC/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Finally, it’s hard to see how someone as flamboyant as Jack Ruby would not have been noticed by several people at Parkland.--KB

That is a puzzle. Ruby was noticeable, and seemed to be universally friendly, to the point of being a glad-hander (even Kantor's recounting of meeting Ruby at Parkland reads that way). 

There are some dubious photos of Ruby in Parkland, but none that are beyond reasonable doubt. 

Yet Kantor's account is compelling. 

Like everything about JFKA/RFK1A...tell me your biases and I will tell you what you believe.