Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Gene Kelly]

In the other Cabluck photo Haygood is seen still running towards the overpass wall.

so it must soon after the assassination. ( taken just prior to Bond 6 ) I won't guess at the timing in minutes. ?

Robin: This is off-thread, but there's man standing in the top (Cabluck) photo with his hands in his pockets, wearing white slacks. He's in the center-right portion of the photo, and across the street from the Knoll. He is standing still and "observing" (almost casually) and sticks out in contrast to almost all others who are reacting, gesturing, running or otherwise moving. He appears younger and well built... most interesting, he has something in his right rear back pocket. It looks like a radio, with antenna protruding up (under his jacket). He literally stands out, in contarst to just about everyone in the frame. - Gene

[William Kelly]

Yea, that is off topic and maybe Gene and Robbin can give Tan Pants Boy his own thread as this one is dedicated to Oswald leaving the TSBD, and while it has ranged far and wide it has been interesting and developed - at least for me, new information.

Tommy, I stand corrected re: the cops on the steps.

And despite the discrepencies in the written reports I think the jist of the lunchroom mater is clear, - as Baker testified at the London trial he saw Oswald "through the window" of the lunchroom door that had to be closed to see through, and if Oswald had gone through that door, as he would have to, then Truly, ahead of Baker, would have seen him and didn't, thus exonerating Oswald as the sixth floor sniper.

Now Oswald still could be Prayerman, and Truly still is suspect for claiming to notice Oswald missing after seeing him on the second floor, calling the front office for Oswald's address and phone number and then telling Chief Lumpkin and Fritz about him, setting the rabbits hunt off.

Now what I want to know is, if not Oswald, how did the sixth floor sniper get away and who was he?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Bill

This is assuming there was a 6th floor sniper.

[David Josephs]

So Robert - do you dismiss Euins and Brennen for what they actually saw... Brennen did not see shots fired even though he was looking at the window at the time

and Euins here SEES the shooter.... a dark skinned man with a bald spot....

While Brennen I can dismiss as "cooperative to a fault" Euins has little motivation to lie... and then there are the Rowland window men...

SOMEONE and more where seen on the 6th floor from 12:10 to 12:15 to 12:30.... whether shots were staged or not... IDK...

Yet we again have that ground level 1st noise... and the strange looking UP for it afterward....

Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again.
So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know

Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun?
Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

There are the Mooney men, the Baker/Truly man, the "man" who gets off the elevator as Sawyer gets on, people exiting the back door per Carr and others, Lovelady explain how easy it is to just walk into the back entrance... Hosty comes back and no one checks his ID upon entering the TSBD.... it was FUBAR in the 15 minutes afterward....

I think anyone could easily walk out of that building..... no?

[Robert Prudhomme]

True, David. There likely were people up there. I just don't think much of the shooting matches up to the 6.5mm Carcano found on the 6th floor.

[William Kelly]

True, David. There likely were people up there. I just don't think much of the shooting matches up to the 6.5mm Carcano found on the 6th floor.

Snipers I've been talking with agree, and classify the Sixth Floor Sniper as a Level 3 sniper incapable of taking the fatal head shot from that location with that weapon, and they say he was a diversion to protect the Level 1 sniper who took the kill shot as well as the actual sponsors of the operation by framing Oswald as the "red herring."

If JFK had been killed by the single shot of a top notch Level 1 sniper, the suspects would have been limited to the few military intelligence networks that employed them. Having a Level 3 sniper pump a few rounds in the target car with Oswald's rifle not only implicated Oswald and set off the Rabbit's Hunt but protected those actually responsible, just as covert operations are designed to.

I will be elaborating on this theme further soon, but elsewhere, as I'd like to keep this thread devoted to its title.

BK

Edited February 6, 2014 by William Kelly

[Gene Kelly]

"If not Oswald, how did the sixth floor sniper get away and who was he?'

It depends on the original plan... seems aspects of the "Plan" went awry (caracano vs. mauser, kill shot, setup, Lee or Harvey, Tippit, Redbird, etc.). Perhaps no one was supposed to "get away". Perhaps the patsy was intended to be stuck in the TSBD and/or killed escaping. The expert snipers willing to analyze this attack on the President almost all reject the TSBD as an ideal location, precisely because (in part) it did not afford a good escape route. The shots from TSBD were a diversionary tactic, meant to attract attention and incriminate. Maybe it was Danny Arce (temporary worker of plywood floor fame) and he didn't 'escape'... rather, he was escorted out by the DPD.

I'd also speculate that the designated TSBD shooter (who took some "public relations shots" from TSBD for posterity) was a chess piece quickly removed from the board afterwards. Whoever that person was, they were central to something that was designed never to see the light of day. Maybe it was "Lee", who walked out of the building, left in the Rambler and was later spirited out of the back door of the Texas Theatre (courtesy of Collins Radio) and caught a CIA flight to Area 51... never to be seen or heard from again. We know what happened to harvey; whatever happened to Lee? Somebody orchestrating Project Phoenix has the shovel that left him in the desert.

[Ken Davies]

The brilliance of the plan, whether deliberate or accidental, is that there are loose ends unraveling in so many directions that 50 years later, even those who agree that there was a conspiracy can't agree as to who did what, how, why, where, and when.

The TSBD had many exits, and there were many known and some unknown people seen inside, and exiting at the relevant time.

It was a terrible spot for a sniper, unless he was a loner (or you are trying to foster that myth). It was a great place for planting evidence though. It may have been difficult to "hide a carbine" and scatter 3 shells, and find a paper bag, and...at other spots.
It's almost easier to determine how King Tut died. (Burton' s photos show that his collarbone and sternum were in place in 1922, so that recent chariot accident theory doesn't hold up.)

[Gene Kelly]

The brilliance of the plan, whether deliberate or accidental, is that there are loose ends unraveling in so many directions that 50 years later, even those who agree that there was a conspiracy can't agree as to who did what, how, why, where, and when.

The TSBD had many exits, and there were many known and some unknown people seen inside, and exiting at the relevant time.

It was a terrible spot for a sniper, unless he was a loner (or you are trying to foster that myth). It was a great place for planting evidence though. It may have been difficult to "hide a carbine" and scatter 3 shells, and find a paper bag, and...at other spots.

Ken:

Presuming we accept current thinking that Oswald didn't fire a weapon - and the shots fired (by a person unknown) from TSBD were purely diversionary with sole intent to frame the patsy - that individual played a uniquely central role. He or she also had vital knowledge far too damaging to allow in existence or chance remaining silent and undiscovered. Whoever it was (probably 'camouflaged' as a TSBD worker or as law enforcement), I have to think this particular loose end (especially this loose end) didn't live too long to attest to what actually happened... nothing left to chance. This would explain why we still have to speculate fifty years later. With due respect to Larry Hancock, this someone would've (could've) talked if and only if they remained alive. Do we know much about Danny Arce, and whether he lived a long and prosperous life after 1963? To answer Bill Kelly's challenge, I'd line up all the names of suspect TSBD workers and law enforcement responders, and correlate which ones dropped off of the face of the earth shortly after Dealey Plaza.

Gene

[David Andrews]

The brilliance of the plan, whether deliberate or accidental, is that there are loose ends unraveling in so many directions that 50 years later, even those who agree that there was a conspiracy can't agree as to who did what, how, why, where, and when.

The TSBD had many exits, and there were many known and some unknown people seen inside, and exiting at the relevant time.

It was a terrible spot for a sniper, unless he was a loner (or you are trying to foster that myth). It was a great place for planting evidence though. It may have been difficult to "hide a carbine" and scatter 3 shells, and find a paper bag, and...at other spots.

Ken:

Presuming we accept current thinking that Oswald didn't fire a weapon - and the shots fired (by a person unknown) from TSBD were purely diversionary with sole intent to frame the patsy - that individual played a uniquely central role. He or she also had vital knowledge far too damaging to allow in existence or chance remaining silent and undiscovered. Whoever it was (probably 'camouflaged' as a TSBD worker or as law enforcement), I have to think this particular loose end (especially this loose end) didn't live too long to attest to what actually happened... nothing left to chance. This would explain why we still have to speculate fifty years later. With due respect to Larry Hancock, this someone would've (could've) talked if and only if they remained alive. Do we know much about Danny Arce, and whether he lived a long and prosperous life after 1963? To answer Bill Kelly's challenge, I'd line up all the names of suspect TSBD workers and law enforcement responders, and correlate which ones dropped off of the face of the earth shortly after Dealey Plaza.

Gene

That's why I say that the TSBD, Dealey Plaza's other buildings, and their cast of characters deserves a book-length study of its own, an edition of several researchers' work. I could name you the starting line-up of a dream team of researchers for this project, but Jack White is no longer able to fill his slot.

Edited February 5, 2014 by David Andrews

[Tony Goin]

It’s always been my belief that, regardless who was in the 6th floor sniper’s nest, They were not working alone. How could they be certain no one would walk in on them? What was the plan, to turn and shoot whom ever walked in on the 6th floor, then turn back around and shoot Kennedy? Whoever planned to shoot from that window had an accomplice or accomplices, at least a lookout. I don’t believe it was LHO, but I do think that before he left the building he knew something was wrong and maybe his life was in danger, therefore he didn’t just walk out the front door.

[Gene Kelly]

It’s always been my belief that, regardless who was in the 6th floor sniper’s nest, They were not working alone. How could they be certain no one would walk in on them? What was the plan, to turn and shoot whom ever walked in on the 6th floor, then turn back around and shoot Kennedy? Whoever planned to shoot from that window had an accomplice or accomplices, at least a lookout. I don’t believe it was LHO, but I do think that before he left the building he knew something was wrong and maybe his life was in danger, therefore he didn’t just walk out the front door.

Tony:

It seems things didn't go as planned either in the TSBD or at the Tippit scene. The "rabbit" suspected a setup, and ran... or went to the Theatre to await extraction. It gets to one of the central questions of the assassination: was "Oswald" part of the play and knowledgeable, or an unwitting patsy? What did Harvey know and consciously do? Was he aware of Lee? At each scene in this play (TSBD and 10th and Patton) a "convoy" of accomplices (to use Garrison's words) was planting evidence, controlling witnesses and cleaning the crime scene.

I've studied the Tippit murder closely this past year and I am reading Joseph McBride's book. I think the TSBD was a similar scenario: plot gets off track, evidence is scrambled and re-planted, DPD (or complicit Sheriffs' Deputies, phony ATF) conspirators manage the evidence and control the crime scene including witnesses. What better controllers than law enforcement figures ... authorities to be trusted, obeyed and with plausible reason to be there. The TSBD has become for me a giant tall diversionary location -- before, during and after the event -- with slight-of-hand tactics and magicians taking our eyes off of the stage, to allow the actual shooters to walk away safely.

I've come to suspect any and every person or anecdote (that we've collectively studied in depth now for 50 years) associated with the TSBD. You name it: Baker rushing up, the lunchroom encounter, guns sticking out of windows, Mausers vs. Mannlichers, brown paper bags, Aleya filming the evidence discovery, elevators, 5th vs. 6th floor, Truly's story, Mooney encounters, etc. I don't trust any of it as recorded or described in WC depositions or press stories. I've come to see something phony and sinister in almost everyone filmed or recorded at/near or inside the TSBD: Shelley and Arce look mighty suspicious to me. So does DPD Capt. Westbrook and Sgt Hill, Frank Ellsworth (with other un-named ATF agents) and Postal Service Inspector Harry Holmes. They all too quickly ended up at the TSBD... it's a wonder the building didn't collapse with so many ardent and brave 'responders'.

So, to answer you point, you bet there were accomplices. -- Gene

[Tony Goin]

Gene, Yes there was accomplices / conspirators before, during, after and still working behind the scenes today. They were busy feeding misinformation, manipulating evidence, threatening and murdering witnesses, lying and whatever else they can do to confuse and mislead. They have done their job well Gene because we are indeed, confused and mislead. There seems to be a level of suspicion on all those that you named in your post plus many more.

I think there is enough information to rule out LHO as a shooter and if he wasn’t a shooter then I don’t believe he killed Tippet. Seems there are still clouds around the information I use to come to that conclusion, however, Those are my convictions.

I believe Roger Craig saw LHO get into a Rambler and leave. Why, because he was a Deputy Sheriff who is trained to observe. These were early statements by Craig, Before the questions of the Bus; Cab trips were scrutinized like they have been today. Even after the controversy of those trips and despite much criticism of what he said he saw, he stuck with it to his grave and some say it was “They” that put him there. Since I don’t think there was a Lee and Harvey at the TSBD that day, { reasons best left for another thread } My reasonable assumption is that. LHO left in the Rambler.

[David Josephs]

Gene, Yes there was accomplices / conspirators before, during, after and still working behind the scenes today. They were busy feeding misinformation, manipulating evidence, threatening and murdering witnesses, lying and whatever else they can do to confuse and mislead. They have done their job well Gene because we are indeed, confused and mislead. There seems to be a level of suspicion on all those that you named in your post plus many more.

I think there is enough information to rule out LHO as a shooter and if he wasn’t a shooter then I don’t believe he killed Tippet. Seems there are still clouds around the information I use to come to that conclusion, however, Those are my convictions.

I believe Roger Craig saw LHO get into a Rambler and leave. Why, because he was a Deputy Sheriff who is trained to observe. These were early statements by Craig, Before the questions of the Bus; Cab trips were scrutinized like they have been today. Even after the controversy of those trips and despite much criticism of what he said he saw, he stuck with it to his grave and some say it was “They” that put him there. Since I don’t think there was a Lee and Harvey at the TSBD that day, { reasons best left for another thread } My reasonable assumption is that. LHO left in the Rambler.

Hi Tony...

The man who walked past REID on the 2nd floor was not wearing a jacket or overshirt - only a white Tshirt - as was the man Craig described getting into the car...

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--

Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?

Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

Yet everyone is shown the ARREST SHIRT as CE150 and asked it that was what he was wearing: and we are not shown the Briarloom button-down... EVER from what I can tell (any help there?)

Mr. BELIN - I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG - It's the same type of shirt.

Mr. BELIN - I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt he was wearing?

Mr. CRAIG - Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN - What about the man who was driving the car?

Mr. CRAIG - Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a thin white-looking Jacket---uh, it looked like the short windbreaker type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that--just a short jacket.

Kinda like the light windbreaker found in the car lot?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?

Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?

Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?

Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened.

CE150 is the ARREST SHIRT worn by Oswald... the shirt and pants Oswald was wearing to work were taken off and found in the bottom drawer of his dresser on Beckley.... it appears on the handwritten inventory as well as the typed inventories of the BECKLEY searches:

He was wearing a Briarloom shirt with a button-downed collar... which CE150 is not... the item appears on the DPD inventory of items given to the FBI, yet it is neither numbered or part of the photographed 455 items...

So basically... the man walking past REID, ID'd as Oswald could not have been...

The man Craig sees appears to be wearing the TAN Briarloom, while the man REID SEES is not the same person - yet is identified as OSWALD...

The man on the bus has not been conclusively determined as Oswald... in fact there is quite a lot of conflict with the stories of those who claim to ahve seen this man on the bus... The biggest problem to me remains the description of the shirt she supposedly sees:

Mr. BALL - In order to convince me that you did see it before you've got to tell me what there is about it that is the same, you see. Now, you try to convince me, or tell me why it is that you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when you saw him on the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I would say it was. That hole---

Mr. BALL - Mostly the hole in the right sleeve?

Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.

The problem once again... is that she is describing the ARREST SHIRT of Oswald with three missing buttons and the hole in the right sleeve - YET OSWALD WAS NOT WEARING THAT SHIRT ON THE BUS - IF IT WAS HIM ON THE BUS... It is my opinion from the evidence that BLEDSOE was given the information about the shirt for her testimony so she could tie Oswald to his supposed escape route...

Yet Oswald was not yet wearing that shirt, and in all probability, the shirt got ripped and lost buttons in the struggle at the Theater....

The change of shirts is recorded by Fritz, twice and in the notes of all of those who where at the interview... in Fact.. the notes claim that Oswald 1) took the bus all the way to his destination and/or 2) used the transfer to get onto the 2nd bus..

What bothers me about this is his "QUOTING OSWALD" when it came to the change instory to the taxi cab... If you read thru this entire write-up... the "quoted" material is sparse... he does not quote certain things while others are claimed to be exact quotes... the change in who the cab driver was becomes interesting in this light... once Whaley was "found" he helps in some areas and completely contradicts testimonies of others in different areas.

The number of people seen leaving the TSBD and area is astounding. That there is a belief that anyone or any group of "assassins" could not walk away unbothered is also contradicted by the evidence...

Which Oswald (Lee/Harvey/Imposter) was where is unknowable imo... yet there are strong indications that those who place him in certain escape routes have been fed info after the fact.

DJ

[Gene Kelly]

Tony and David:

Bringing us back to this thread, if we belive there's some likelihood that 'Prayer Man' is indeed Lee (or Harvey) Oswald, its baffling what happened next. Looks like eyewitness accounts put this person going back into the TSBD (after the shooting becomes evident) which seems counterintuitive. None of this makes sense anymore, and we're left to speculate. Prayer Man's shirt and appearance certainly look like the Oswald who's later arrested. Lee is escorted out the back of the Texas Theatre never to be seen again (except by Mathers and an officer on a CIA flight to Area 51). I do agree that - in the chaos and movement following the shooting - anyone could've left the TSBD. Pictures (and Craig's observation) give us an "Oswald look-alike" leaving in a Rambler. I personally don't belive in any of Oswald's recorded escape routes... buses, taxis, walking quickly or redbird flights. Its all slight of hand by magicians prompting us to focus on the wrong stuff.

Gene