Ramon F. Herrera Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) All this time, people have been talking about the Zapruder film, in singular, when the term "Zapruder films" is more accurate in certain contexts. According to this: http://www.jfklancer.com/History-Z.html on day one there were already 3-4 copies. Where are they? Are those copies of the film included in the JFK Collection Database? http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/0?path=jfkcnew.txt&id=demo&pass=&OK=OK Could it be possible that one of those copies (previous to the alterations claimed by Brugioni and Horne) https://vimeo.com/102327635 will ever be available? TIA Edited September 8, 2015 by Ramon F. Herrera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Ramon, As I understand, there were three camera-original copies of the Z-film made in Dallas on November 22, 1963. One copy went to H.L. Hunt. One copy went to Zapruder. One copy went to the Secret Service. This is just my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G. Healy Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 ... One copy went to H.L. Hunt... it did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramon F. Herrera Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Ramon, As I understand, there were three camera-original copies of the Z-film made in Dallas on November 22, 1963. One copy went to H.L. Hunt. One copy went to Zapruder. One copy went to the Secret Service. This is just my understanding. Being a conspiracy minimalist, I can't believe I am writing this: Could the $16 million have been to insure the discreet colaboration of the Z family? Again: I am half serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I understood that 3 copies were made day 1. Two copies turned over to Secret Service, Zapruder kept 1. Life Mag got original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramon F. Herrera Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Ramon, As I understand, there were three camera-original copies of the Z-film made in Dallas on November 22, 1963. One copy went to H.L. Hunt. One copy went to Zapruder. One copy went to the Secret Service. This is just my understanding. Jon: I made a copy of the full JFK Collection Database from the National Archives, and thus I can make queries not available to the general public. It turns out that there are 10 records which are related to the Zapruder film and have been POSTPONED IN FULL. http://patriot.net/~ramon/jfk/Zapruder-Postponed-in-Full.png RIF 178-10002-10373 RIF 178-10002-10378 RIF 180-10023-10338 RIF 180-10077-10497 RIF 180-10092-10277 RIF 180-10102-10228 RIF 180-10108-10311 RIF 180-10115-10075 RIF 180-10117-10133 RIF 180-10123-10049 Feel free to verify those records here: http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/0?path=jfkcnew.txt&id=demo&pass=&OK=OK Could it be that there is a God, and justice in this world, and an original copy is waiting for us to watch on Thursday, October 26, 2017? Edited September 9, 2015 by Ramon F. Herrera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I understood that 3 copies were made day 1. Two copies turned over to Secret Service, Zapruder kept 1. Life Mag got original. To my knowledge this is correct, except to add that the FBI got one of the SS copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 If you read SS Philips note to Rowley and remember that Zap had original and a best copy, 2 to SS, and a final copy to Rowley, it looks like an original and 4 copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William O'Neil Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Paul Rothermel told us that he "has an original copy of the Zapruder film, that would put the lie to the public version that is out there." He was asked by H.L Hunt to obtain it right after the assassination. Was he BS'ing us? Perhaps, but.......... I got the definite feeling he was dead serious. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 We were told that Zapruder had in his possession the original and a best copy since we know that LIFE first takes the original and comes back for the best copy which Zap also supposedly had... 1 copy Mr. LIEBELER - Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct?Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street.Mr. LIEBELER - That's the Secret Service?Mr. ZAPRUDER - The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people. 2 more copies All this would be fine if Philips told us that 1 of the 2 Sorrel's copies was sent to Rowley... but that's not what he says... He says "The THIRD PRINT is forwarded". Yet according to numerous timelines offered Zapruder either keeps the "best" copy or Stolley takes it... either way at the time Philips sends the film Zapruder has the original and a copy, and Sorrels has 2 copies since "The third print is forwarded" Question is - if Philips sent one of Sorrels' copies, he would not be sending a "third print" which according to the # of copies admitted to, is in Zapruder's possession. The only THRID PRINT available is 0184 which for 50+ years we've somehow accepted the excuse that 0184 was simply skipped over for some unknown reason... If that doesn't ring alarm bells, what will? I contend that 0184 was already in DC on the night of 11/22, was seen by the FBI and SS (and commented upon as seen by the FBI in the early morning hours of 11/23) and it was this copy which Hawkeyeworks changes before it gets to Dino Dino was adamant with Peter Janney, as he had been with David Wrone, that the film delivered to NPIC for processing by the Secret Service was an 8 mm home movie, and he recalled this clearly and without any doubt whatsoever because Bill Banfield had to awaken the owner of the CIA’s favorite commercial photo outlet (Fuller and d’Albert), and ask him to to open his downtown shop, so that Banfield could purchase an 8 mm home movie projector. While Banfield was procuring the 8 mm projector in downtown WashingtonD.C. in the dead of night, Brugioni, Pearse, and the two Secret Service agents were examining individual frames of the film on a light table with a stereomicroscope. About midnight, when Banfield returned with the 8 mm home movie projector, the film was viewed at least 4 or 5 times, and at different speeds, by the two Secret Service agents, Brugioni (the duty officer), Pearse (the lead photogrammatrist), and Banfield (the production supervisor). By definition, 0184 would have been the FIRST COPY of the film. Sadly, imo, that film and its contents are no longer available yet WCD298 gives you some glimpse as to what was on it... a shot 40 feet down Elm and more shots at locations which are not seen or identified in the films. I am doing an article on WCD298 as definitive proof that what we see in the films and photos is not representative of what happened.... The Evidence IS the Conspiracy... DJ The quality of the National Archives' photographic copy of this hand written report is so poor that many of its words cannot be made out in a scanned copy. Consequently, we have provided below a typed copy ]CD - 87 Folder 1CO2 34030 11/229:55To: Chief RowleyFrom: Max D. PhillipsSubject: 8mm movie film showing PresidentKennedy being shotEnclosed is an 8mm movie filmtaken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., DallasTexas (RI8-6071)Mr.. Zapruder was photographingthe President at the instant he was shot.According to Mr. Zapruder, the position ofthe assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.Note: Disregard personnel scenesshown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruderis in custody of the "master" film. Two printswere given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.The third print is forwarded.Max D. PhillipsSpecial Agent - PRS Max D. PhillipsSpecial Agent - PRS SS SA Max Phillips wrote to Rowley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 We were told that Zapruder had in his possession the original and a best copy since we know that LIFE first takes the original and comes back for the best copy which Zap also supposedly had... 1 copy Mr. LIEBELER - Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct? Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street. Mr. LIEBELER - That's the Secret Service? Mr. ZAPRUDER - The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people. 2 more copies All this would be fine if Philips told us that 1 of the 2 Sorrel's copies was sent to Rowley... but that's not what he says... He says "The THIRD PRINT is forwarded". Yet according to numerous timelines offered Zapruder either keeps the "best" copy or Stolley takes it... either way at the time Philips sends the film Zapruder has the original and a copy, and Sorrels has 2 copies since "The third print is forwarded" Question is - if Philips sent one of Sorrels' copies, he would not be sending a "third print" which according to the # of copies admitted to, is in Zapruder's possession. The only THRID PRINT available is 0184 which for 50+ years we've somehow accepted the excuse that 0184 was simply skipped over for some unknown reason... If that doesn't ring alarm bells, what will? I contend that 0184 was already in DC on the night of 11/22, was seen by the FBI and SS (and commented upon as seen by the FBI in the early morning hours of 11/23) and it was this copy which Hawkeyeworks changes before it gets to Dino Dino was adamant with Peter Janney, as he had been with David Wrone, that the film delivered to NPIC for processing by the Secret Service was an 8 mm home movie, and he recalled this clearly and without any doubt whatsoever because Bill Banfield had to awaken the owner of the CIA’s favorite commercial photo outlet (Fuller and d’Albert), and ask him to to open his downtown shop, so that Banfield could purchase an 8 mm home movie projector. While Banfield was procuring the 8 mm projector in downtown WashingtonD.C. in the dead of night, Brugioni, Pearse, and the two Secret Service agents were examining individual frames of the film on a light table with a stereomicroscope. About midnight, when Banfield returned with the 8 mm home movie projector, the film was viewed at least 4 or 5 times, and at different speeds, by the two Secret Service agents, Brugioni (the duty officer), Pearse (the lead photogrammatrist), and Banfield (the production supervisor). By definition, 0184 would have been the FIRST COPY of the film. Sadly, imo, that film and its contents are no longer available yet WCD298 gives you some glimpse as to what was on it... a shot 40 feet down Elm and more shots at locations which are not seen or identified in the films. I am doing an article on WCD298 as definitive proof that what we see in the films and photos is not representative of what happened.... The Evidence IS the Conspiracy... DJ The quality of the National Archives' photographic copy of this hand written report is so poor that many of its words cannot be made out in a scanned copy. Consequently, we have provided below a typed copy ] CD - 87 Folder 1 CO2 34030 11/22 9:55 To: Chief Rowley From: Max D. Phillips Subject: 8mm movie film showing President Kennedy being shot Enclosed is an 8mm movie film taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas Texas (RI8-6071) Mr.. Zapruder was photographing the President at the instant he was shot. According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder. Note: Disregard personnel scenes shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date. The third print is forwarded. Max D. Phillips Special Agent - PRS Max D. Phillips Special Agent - PRS SS SA Max Phillips wrote to Rowley All that seems to translate to 1 original and 3 copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Kenneth... Zapruder had 2 films on the morning of the 23rd, not 1. Sorrels has one and he gave one to the FBI Phillips also sends a copy. When Phillips says the THIRD PRINT IS FORWARDED he assumes that Zapruder only has the master... Either Sorrels or Rowley has an extra copy the night of the 22nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Very recently, I came across Robert Morningstar who says he has found the missing frames from the Zapruder film. I believe Youtube has the turn onto Elm, which Morningstar found. I have also seen the frontal head shot. It is more gory than what we have. Also cut out of the film is Jackie hugging Kennedy with both arms after that shot. I would suggest to people: look up Robert Morningstar. He said he will publish the film, but feels people aren't ready to see it, as it is so gory. Personally, I think we've waited enough. Kathy C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger DeLaria Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Kathy, Where have you seen the frontal head shot? I would like to see these missing frames as well. I'm ready to see it, as I think we all are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Roger and others: Here is the youtube clip of the turn onto Elm. https://youtu.be/l2rEBLFih7M About the head shot: It was described as a big white substance going up in the air and then the gory part was shown on an Internet radio show. The blood is redder and Jackie is face to face with John Kennedy, her left arm over his right shoulder. I will try to find it, but in the frames I saw there was no white (halo). Robert Morningstar says he has the missing frames of Zapruder. One important thing. The film is shot from behind Zapruder and from a higher area close by. I cannot figure where this cameraman was standing. Kathy C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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