Examining Fritz's Notes Again

[Robert Prudhomme]

Fritz did not actually take notes during the interrogation of Oswald. Instead, he wrote his notes several days after the assassination, and it is still a mystery as to why they were made to appear hastily written. Perhaps Fritz was taking flak about not having any record of the interrogation, and wanted to have something to show.

Nonetheless, let's assume, for this thread, that everything Fritz wrote was an accurate record of what he heard.

The line (or lines) that interests me most contains the following:

"claims 2nd Floor coke when

off (officer?) came in

to 1st fl (floor?) had lunch

out with Bill Shelley in

front"

or

"claims 2nd Floor coke when off came in to 1st fl had lunch out with Bill Shelley in front"

or

"Oswald claims he was on the 2nd floor purchasing a Coke when the officer came into the 1st floor. He also claims he had lunch out in front, on the steps, with Bill Shelley."

[James DiEugenio]

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

[Ron Ecker]

Does anyone know if it is historically true that homicide investigations were so primitive in 1963 that even big-city police departments did not have those newfangled things called tape recorders?

[Jon G. Tidd]

Fritz had to have known by about 2:30 p.m. on Friday the 22nd that something was fishy about Oswald's arrest; how quickly it occurred after Tippit's murder, how police officers like Pinky Westbrook were in on the arrest, how pat the charge of murder in Tippit's slaying was laid at Oswald's doorstep. I imagine Fritz, an experienced homicide cop, smelled a rat. As the weekend unfolded, I imagine he knew the rat was a big one, far too big for him to challenge. Even by Saturday the 23rd, blame was being laid on "Dallas" for JFK's murder. I imagine Fritz knew he had to get with the program.

His notes, in my opinion, are an attempt to both be honest and to obfuscate. Fritz was intelligent and astute. He knew which way the wind blew. He wasn't about to become a rebel.

[Greg Parker]

Way back, I believed they were taken during the interrogation simply because of their scrawled nature and despite anything he claimed. Then (and I can't remember why), I thought maybe they were made a few days later from memory.

When Sean Murphy first told me privately that he thought the notes were copied from Bookhout - I assumed he was talking about the actual typed report, so was skeptical of that. I mean, in that case, no need for the notes to look so messy. The thought that he was trying to make them look like they were taken during the interrogations makes no sense. When you look at them, he is unsure of chronology - and even admitted same during testimony. It was wasn't until the PM thread that I understood. The notes were not copied from Bookhout's report - they were cribbed from bookhout's own interrogation notes. That made sense.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

Edited September 8, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[David Josephs]

Maybe this will add some clarity?

CE1988. Whether this is what Oswald said or what needed to be written is best revealed by the "stood around 5 or 10 minutes with Bill Shelley" who was no longer standing at the front door.

Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when they found anything up there?
Mr. SHELLEY - I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor.

So much for guarding the elevator - somebody in this threesome of Bookout, Shelley and Oswald is not telling the truth here.

[Thomas Graves]

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

In addition to getting a coke, another plausible reason for Oswald's going up to the second floor, after the shots, would be to go to a window up there and get a better view of what was going on. Just sayin'. Otherwise, he must have been the only person on the front steps to stop watching the goings on because he was ... thirsty.

Why would any ex-Marine and "defector" to the U.S.S.R. want to go inside the building after the shots, and risk being confused with the assassin?

--Tommy

Edited September 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Greg Parker]

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

In addition to getting a coke, another plausible reason for Oswald's going up to the second floor, after the shots, would be to go to a window up there and get a better view of what was going on. Just sayin'. Otherwise, he must have been the only person on the front steps to stop watching the goings on because he was ... thirsty.

--Tommy

One problem with that. The 2nd floor lunch room was in the middle of the building. No lookee outside from there.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

In addition to getting a coke, another plausible reason for Oswald's going up to the second floor, after the shots, would be to go to a window up there and get a better view of what was going on. Just sayin'. Otherwise, he must have been the only person on the front steps to stop watching the goings on because he was ... thirsty.

Why would any ex-Marine and "defector" to the U.S.S.R. want to go inside the building after the shots, and risk being confused with the assassin?

--Tommy

There seems to have been a number of TSBD employees, including Molina and Frazier, who did not waste any time going back into the TSBD. You can see a number of them going up the steps in the Darnell/Couch film. And Frazier was not only thirsty, he went down into the basement and ate his lunch.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

In addition to getting a coke, another plausible reason for Oswald's going up to the second floor, after the shots, would be to go to a window up there and get a better view of what was going on. Just sayin'. Otherwise, he must have been the only person on the front steps to stop watching the goings on because he was ... thirsty.

Why would any ex-Marine and "defector" to the U.S.S.R. want to go inside the building after the shots, and risk being confused with the assassin?

--Tommy

There seems to have been a number of TSBD employees, including Molina and Frazier, who did not waste any time going back into the TSBD. You can see a number of them going up the steps in the Darnell/Couch film. And Frazier was not only thirsty, he went down into the basement and ate his lunch.

Good points, Robert.

Who do we see wearing a coat, tie, and probably a hat on the top step (behind Frazier) in Couch / Darnell? He looks broad-shouldered.

Molina or Shelley?

--Tommy

[David Andrews]

If Fritz wasn't taking notes, I suggest it was a career habit designed to not establish any grounds for interpretation except the investigator's opinion and the considerations that shaped it.

If a case compels him to reconstruct notes afterward, then motive enters.

Edited September 9, 2015 by David Andrews

[Robert Prudhomme]

Do you think it was deliberately ambiguous.?

Not necessarily, Jim. I think we have been trying so hard to deep six the second floor encounter, it might have made us blind to any other scenarios.

Imagine this. During questioning, Oswald is asked about officer Baker, and tells his interrogators he was on the second floor getting a Coke when Baker came in, having just left the front entrance, and knowing he must have left before Baker came into the building. If the next question was "Where were you just before that?", Oswald would answer he was having lunch out in front with Bill Shelley.

Oswald likely would have gone up to the 2nd floor by the front staircase. If he was taking his time, he could have been seen through the 2nd floor lunch room door by Baker as Oswald traversed the small hallway just outside the lunch room, passing from right to left, from Baker's perspective.

All of this means that Baker did not enter the TSBD as soon as he arrived at the steps, although not a great deal of time probably elapsed before he did; perhaps a minute or two. This would give Molina and Frazier time to re-enter the building, and would explain why neither of them saw Baker enter. If Pauline Sanders lingered a bit longer than these two, she would have seen Baker enter, as her FBI affidavit states.

This would also give Shelley and Lovelady time to cross the street, listen to Gloria Calvery for a few seconds, and be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension before looking back to see Baker and Truly ascending the steps.

The only stretching of the truth required is to have Baker tell the WC that he entered the TSBD immediately after arriving at the steps, instead of lingering out front until Oswald, Molina and Frazier had gone inside. If Baker was convinced of Oswald's guilt anyways, he might not even think hewas doing anything wrong by slightly embellishing the times.

Seriously, it may all have happened almost the way everyone said it did. (emphasis on the word "almost")

In addition to getting a coke, another plausible reason for Oswald's going up to the second floor, after the shots, would be to go to a window up there and get a better view of what was going on. Just sayin'. Otherwise, he must have been the only person on the front steps to stop watching the goings on because he was ... thirsty.

Why would any ex-Marine and "defector" to the U.S.S.R. want to go inside the building after the shots, and risk being confused with the assassin?

--Tommy

There seems to have been a number of TSBD employees, including Molina and Frazier, who did not waste any time going back into the TSBD. You can see a number of them going up the steps in the Darnell/Couch film. And Frazier was not only thirsty, he went down into the basement and ate his lunch.

Good points, Robert.

Who do we see wearing a coat, tie, and probably a hat on the top step (behind Frazier) in Couch / Darnell? He looks broad-shouldered.

Molina or Shelley?

--Tommy

Could you post the close up you're looking at, Thomas?

[Robert Prudhomme]

A poster by the name of Mandrake over at the ROKC forum has come up with a different and very interesting interpretation of the same passage from Fritz's notes.

"I think the notes should be read like this...

Claims 2nd floor coke when off...came in to 1st floor...had lunch out with Bill Shelley in front.

I think what LHO was articulating was that when he got off for lunch, he stopped on the second floor to buy a coke, proceeded to the first floor, retieved his lunch and took it outside where he saw all the excitement. I don't think he said anything about officer Baker. At least nothing Capt. Fritz put in the notes. JMHO"

Excellent observation, Mandrake.

[Larry Hancock]

That certainly would be reasonable, I mean how many people eat their lunch dry and then go for something to drink. Stopping for a coke coming from upstairs, getting your lunch, starting on the sandwich and then going out

front with the soda would make sense....then back upstairs to put the empty in the bottle rack by the machine (that's how it worked in the olden days). And if Fritz did not make notes about Oswald describing an encoungter

with one of his officers it would be pretty weak.

No idea how to prove it all but its indeed a very interesting interpretation.