Prayer Man is a Man

[John Butler]

I turned the contrast down and the brightness up.  The shadow behind the ear does not appear to be different from the shadows under the nose and chin.

This is a good shot of Harvey to show the identification traits one can use to id this Oswald.

1.  Left ear with two folds at the top rim.

2.  Earlobes

3. Comb over to hide a significant recession of his hairline on both sides of the head.

4.  Large, slender nose.

5.  Short chin.

6.  Slender to normal neck in profile.  In a direct to the front shot, Harvey appears to have a wide and stout neck.

This photo may have been retouched.  Oswald received a significant beat down at the Texas Theater and later at the Dallas Police Station.  This beating shows as bruises and scrapes in other photos of Oswald in his T shirt.

  

Edited December 15, 2021 by John Butler

[Jonathan Cohen]

54 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I turned the contrast down and the brightness up.  The shadow behind the ear does not appear to be different from the shadows under the nose and chin.

This is a good shot of Harvey to show the identification traits one can use to id this Oswald.

1.  Left ear with two folds at the top rim.

2.  Earlobes

3. Comb over to hide a significant recession of his hairline on both sides of the head.

4.  Large, slender nose.

5.  Short chin.

6.  Slender to normal neck in profile.  In a direct to the front shot, Harvey appears to have a wide and stout neck.

This photo may have been retouched.  Oswald received a significant beat down at the Texas Theater and later at the Dallas Police Station.  This beating shows as bruises and scrapes in other photos of Oswald in his T shirt.

Uh huh. So, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, Ruth Paine and Michael Paine all arrive at Dallas PD headquarters expecting to see Lee, but instead they find a beaten, bruised and scraped "Harvey" sitting across the table? And NOBODY says a word? This theory is so profoundly idiotic that I cannot believe anyone actually subscribes to it at this late date.  

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Uh huh. So, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, Ruth Paine and Michael Paine all arrive at Dallas PD headquarters expecting to see Lee, but instead they find a beaten, bruised and scraped "Harvey" sitting across the table? And NOBODY says a word? This theory is so profoundly idiotic that I cannot believe anyone actually subscribes to it at this late date.  

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

bruised and scraped

 

"profoundly idiotic"?  Does this say I am an idiot?  JC, I think you have been cautioned before about breaking Forum rules with ad hominem attacks and name calling.  Should I send this to the editors?

Two Oswalds.  That is a significant part of this conspiracy.  One that involves the whole Oswald family.  And, the Paines, their handlers or keepers, if you like.

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

bruised and scraped

As far as "bruised and scraped":

  

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Two Oswalds.  That is a significant part of this conspiracy.  One that involves the whole Oswald family.  And, the Paines, their handlers or keepers, if you like.  

The fact that, according to "Harvey and Lee" doctrine, "this conspiracy" involves "the whole Oswald family" is precisely what makes it idiotic. Do you actually believe that all these family members and friends knew there were two Oswalds, and then proceeded to give interviews about the assassination for the rest of their lives and NEVER MENTIONED IT, ever? Those are some smart conspirators, huh? 

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

The fact that, according to "Harvey and Lee" doctrine, "this conspiracy" involves "the whole Oswald family" is precisely what makes it idiotic. Do you actually believe that all these family members and friends knew there were two Oswalds, and then proceeded to give interviews about the assassination for the rest of their lives and NEVER MENTIONED IT, ever? Those are some smart conspirators, huh? 

Sure.  Well, I'm not so sure about John Pic from some of the things he said.  For Robert and Mama Oswald, you can't get much deeper into the conspiracy.  I don't think they liked where it ended.  I think they were patriotic Americans who believed they were doing the right thing for their country.  As far as Marina goes, her self-interest and loyalty to the Soviets have kept her quiet over the years.

IMO, the Oswald family were willing participants and believed in what they were doing.  The Paines were simply agents.  Marguerite did give up the game to get her son home claiming that Oswald worked for the CIA as a spy.  Robert gave himself away in his book when he talked about Lee being at home when he was at Atugi Naval Base in Japan.  Who knows what Marina's actual position was and still is.  

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Sure.  Well, I'm not so sure about John Pic from some of the things he said.  For Robert and Mama Oswald, you can't get much deeper into the conspiracy.  I don't think they liked where it ended.  I think they were patriotic Americans who believed they were doing the right thing for their country.  As far as Marina goes, her self-interest and loyalty to the Soviets have kept her quiet over the years.

IMO, the Oswald family were willing participants and believed in what they were doing.  The Paines were simply agents.  Marguerite did give up the game to get her son home claiming that Oswald worked for the CIA as a spy.  Robert gave himself away in his book when he talked about Lee being at home when he was at Atugi Naval Base in Japan.  Who knows what Marina's actual position was and still is.  

But John, this is ridiculous. Why on earth would the evil conspirators allow Robert Oswald to write a book in the first place? Or to give interviews on the subject for the rest of his life? Or for Marguerite Oswald to align herself with people like Mark Lane and then loudly proclaim her son's innocence? Or for Marina Oswald to write an unbelievably detailed book rendering the notion of "two Oswalds" complete folly? It makes absolutely no sense and is a massive logical failing of "Harvey and Lee."

[Jake Hammond]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:02 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Jake I would like to comment your proposal and arguments that the woman with the camera of the news footage at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vhVenvzxQg, at 15:39-45, is Prayer Man. This woman holding a camera appears about 20-30 minutes after the assassination on Houston near the corner of Houston and Elm, a very short walk from the location of PM on the steps of the TSBD. You argue that she matches in physical description PM in the photos, and that the camera in her hand may correspond to what appears to be something in the hand of PM. Being short (as a woman), she might have gone up the steps to the top level in order to get a better camera shot, then over the next twenty minutes or so wandered across the street to Houston. The fact that none of the TSBD witnesses' testimony directly establish any other identification for PM would be consistent with camera woman being that person. So that is the argument.

If camera woman is--my guess--maybe 22? yrs old in the photos?--she would be only early 70s in age today, very possibly alive. If she could be identified and found she could be asked whether she stood on the top steps at the front of the TSBD entrance that day, and get an answer on that from her herself. 

However here are some points which seem to me to favor an Oswald identification over camera woman.

• Shirt neck profile. PM has a shirt neck profile in exact agreement with how Oswald wears his shirt when arrested, suggesting that is how he normally wore his shirts, unbuttoned ca. 3-4 buttons from the top with a T-shirt underneath. But camera woman's shirt is buttoned at the top neck button. You propose that she had that top collar button unbuttoned when PM (the next button below that being near breast level), then buttoned up her shirt at some point in the next ca. 20 minutes before she was photographed with her shirt buttoned at the collar. While that is possible, all else being equal would a woman taking photos take time out to button that top collar button, or just keep on as she was. And second, if camera woman did have her top collar unbuttoned so as to look like PM, she must have had a woman's equivalent of a T-shirt underneath because otherwise it would probably be considered borderline immodest or uncomfortably low cut for most women's preference I would think, but if she did why then button the neck button. Maybe there was a breeze and she was cold? But with Oswald, no change in how he wore his shirt needs to be assumed.
• Camera in left hand. The woman holds her camera in her left hand, which makes sense for a right-handed person, using the right hand at the time a picture is taken to steady and click the shutter. However PM is holding something in his right hand, not left. If PM is Oswald the object in his right hand would not be a camera (no indication at all that Oswald had a camera at work) but could be a glass coke bottle. An argument that the object in PM's right hand raised to PM's face in one PM photo is not a flash of a camera is that the same light reflection is seen when the object is lowered and not at PM's face. But possibly the light could be accounted for from reflection from the glass bottom of a coke bottle, with one photo capturing PM taking a swig. Camera woman is not holding anything in her right hand, suggesting the left hand is the hand she normally holds her camera when using only one hand, seemingly inconsistent with PM's object in the right hand.
• Hairline. While camera woman's haircut seems close to a match, PM's hairline seems to show an "indent" "in", more than the straight 90 degree drop of camera woman's hair. PM's hairline seems distinctive male pattern, a distinctive partly receding hairline of a type that Oswald and roughly 25% of American males have as Andrej brought out, but which camera woman does not have.
• Hair and top of ear. All of PM's right ear seems uncovered by hair, in agreement with photos of Oswald, whereas the hair of camera woman comes down over the top part of her right ear. (On the dark spot below PM's right ear, which matches the hair of neither Oswald nor camera woman, see below.)
• Darker area of PM's shirt. Although this tests the limits of visual resolution from the poor photo image, there does seem to be a slightly darker area of part of PM's shirt, which is irregular and not an intentional pattern of the shirt, which Andrej has intriguingly proposed matches a similar distribution of darker area on the maroon-red shirt that Oswald was wearing that morning (C150). Rather than shirt pattern this would be from wear and/or discoloration maybe from sweat over time. I don't know the cause, just guessing, but there is some discoloration in Oswald's C150 shirt which sort of corresponds to a discoloration area detectable in PM's shirt, but there is nothing in camera woman's shirt that is equivalent or to account for that.
• Weight. This is very subjective, but it "seems" PM may have somewhat more body mass than camera woman. Camera woman appears to be slender and light weight. Oswald was slender but taller and male and would have weighed perhaps 20? 30? pounds more than camera woman? In better agreement with PM?
• Forearm. The size and heft of the right forearm on PM seems to look like a man's forearm, a bit larger than would be anticipated for lightweight camera woman.

These comments are tentative subject to more expert opinion (I do not trust myself on photo interpretation of this nature) but these features on present analysis seem to me to better favor Oswald than camera woman as a match to Prayer Man. There is however one feature of PM that is puzzling and for which I can think of no good explanation: a dark streak below PM's right ear of same hue as the dark hue of hair above. It seems difficult to interpret that dark streak as actually being hair since it is odd for any hair of a man or woman to look that way. Certainly neither Oswald's nor camera woman have hair below their ear that way. The only parallel I can see is in this photo below which shows a similar dark streak below Oswald's ear as a result of shadow. However since PM is standing wholly in shadow without sun it seems that explanation will not work for PM, so I do not know what the explanation on that might be. 

 

Thanks for your reply Greg, Im really busy at the moment but will reply soon. Briefly though... if those points I've connected are a coincidence then we may as well give up researching because anything could be a coincidence. I'll look properly though later. Cheers

[Jake Hammond]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:02 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Jake I would like to comment your proposal and arguments that the woman with the camera of the news footage at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vhVenvzxQg, at 15:39-45, is Prayer Man. This woman holding a camera appears about 20-30 minutes after the assassination on Houston near the corner of Houston and Elm, a very short walk from the location of PM on the steps of the TSBD. You argue that she matches in physical description PM in the photos, and that the camera in her hand may correspond to what appears to be something in the hand of PM. Being short (as a woman), she might have gone up the steps to the top level in order to get a better camera shot, then over the next twenty minutes or so wandered across the street to Houston. The fact that none of the TSBD witnesses' testimony directly establish any other identification for PM would be consistent with camera woman being that person. So that is the argument.

If camera woman is--my guess--maybe 22? yrs old in the photos?--she would be only early 70s in age today, very possibly alive. If she could be identified and found she could be asked whether she stood on the top steps at the front of the TSBD entrance that day, and get an answer on that from her herself. 

However here are some points which seem to me to favor an Oswald identification over camera woman.

• Shirt neck profile. PM has a shirt neck profile in exact agreement with how Oswald wears his shirt when arrested, suggesting that is how he normally wore his shirts, unbuttoned ca. 3-4 buttons from the top with a T-shirt underneath. But camera woman's shirt is buttoned at the top neck button. You propose that she had that top collar button unbuttoned when PM (the next button below that being near breast level), then buttoned up her shirt at some point in the next ca. 20 minutes before she was photographed with her shirt buttoned at the collar. While that is possible, all else being equal would a woman taking photos take time out to button that top collar button, or just keep on as she was. And second, if camera woman did have her top collar unbuttoned so as to look like PM, she must have had a woman's equivalent of a T-shirt underneath because otherwise it would probably be considered borderline immodest or uncomfortably low cut for most women's preference I would think, but if she did why then button the neck button. Maybe there was a breeze and she was cold? But with Oswald, no change in how he wore his shirt needs to be assumed.
• Camera in left hand. The woman holds her camera in her left hand, which makes sense for a right-handed person, using the right hand at the time a picture is taken to steady and click the shutter. However PM is holding something in his right hand, not left. If PM is Oswald the object in his right hand would not be a camera (no indication at all that Oswald had a camera at work) but could be a glass coke bottle. An argument that the object in PM's right hand raised to PM's face in one PM photo is not a flash of a camera is that the same light reflection is seen when the object is lowered and not at PM's face. But possibly the light could be accounted for from reflection from the glass bottom of a coke bottle, with one photo capturing PM taking a swig. Camera woman is not holding anything in her right hand, suggesting the left hand is the hand she normally holds her camera when using only one hand, seemingly inconsistent with PM's object in the right hand.
• Hairline. While camera woman's haircut seems close to a match, PM's hairline seems to show an "indent" "in", more than the straight 90 degree drop of camera woman's hair. PM's hairline seems distinctive male pattern, a distinctive partly receding hairline of a type that Oswald and roughly 25% of American males have as Andrej brought out, but which camera woman does not have.
• Hair and top of ear. All of PM's right ear seems uncovered by hair, in agreement with photos of Oswald, whereas the hair of camera woman comes down over the top part of her right ear. (On the dark spot below PM's right ear, which matches the hair of neither Oswald nor camera woman, see below.)
• Darker area of PM's shirt. Although this tests the limits of visual resolution from the poor photo image, there does seem to be a slightly darker area of part of PM's shirt, which is irregular and not an intentional pattern of the shirt, which Andrej has intriguingly proposed matches a similar distribution of darker area on the maroon-red shirt that Oswald was wearing that morning (C150). Rather than shirt pattern this would be from wear and/or discoloration maybe from sweat over time. I don't know the cause, just guessing, but there is some discoloration in Oswald's C150 shirt which sort of corresponds to a discoloration area detectable in PM's shirt, but there is nothing in camera woman's shirt that is equivalent or to account for that.
• Weight. This is very subjective, but it "seems" PM may have somewhat more body mass than camera woman. Camera woman appears to be slender and light weight. Oswald was slender but taller and male and would have weighed perhaps 20? 30? pounds more than camera woman? In better agreement with PM?
• Forearm. The size and heft of the right forearm on PM seems to look like a man's forearm, a bit larger than would be anticipated for lightweight camera woman.

These comments are tentative subject to more expert opinion (I do not trust myself on photo interpretation of this nature) but these features on present analysis seem to me to better favor Oswald than camera woman as a match to Prayer Man. There is however one feature of PM that is puzzling and for which I can think of no good explanation: a dark streak below PM's right ear of same hue as the dark hue of hair above. It seems difficult to interpret that dark streak as actually being hair since it is odd for any hair of a man or woman to look that way. Certainly neither Oswald's nor camera woman have hair below their ear that way. The only parallel I can see is in this photo below which shows a similar dark streak below Oswald's ear as a result of shadow. However since PM is standing wholly in shadow without sun it seems that explanation will not work for PM, so I do not know what the explanation on that might be. 

 

- Shirt neck profile when arrested ... hi shirt buttons were ripped off and no images of him outside of work show him wearing a shirt unbuttoned like he was arrested in. The witnesses on the bus who confirmed an open and ripped shirt seem unreliable . In addition, camera lady has the option of simply unbuttoning that one neck button to create the same neck as in Darnell, which is a very normal thing to do. So no I disagree I'd say the neckline given the evidence suggests her and not him. Also... he wore white T shirts under his work shirts, there is no evidence of white in the neck ares, only a skin tone. 

- I think it much more likely that the person on the steps has gone up there to take photos and in one of the still images you see what looks like a camera strap. The left/ right hand thing I don't believe to be important when you are not taking photos, I personally am right handed and hold camera in either hand depending on what else is going on. 

- Hairline, As discussed the ' receding' hairline of PM must also indicate receding ear syndrome. The blur we see on the ear is 100% consistent with the blur we see on the forehead and lack of definition in the face - the head is turning to the right, towards Frazier. Take the blur out of the forehead and ear and you have camera lady. 

- Size, its way too subjective, the image quality simply isn't there, in addition Oswald was a small and slender man himself and we don't know the size of camera lady so its a moot point. 

- Forearm, the blur, quality, bangle , shirt roll and lack of info about camera lady make this impossible to judge. 

The hair shadow  - It can't be a shadow because the sun wasn't shining that way and the colour and texture are a match with the hair around it. A woman with mid length hair who pushes her hair behind the ear will show hair just like that, it sits under the ear. I myself have had mid length hair and can confirm this. 

 Thank you for your comments on finding camera lady and her images, this is a genuine avenue to research, she may well be alive. Given the points of reference in my previous comments and lack of any real argument for it not being her I request that people on the fence look at the massive similarity and think rationally. Those who really want this to be Oswald may never admit what is in front of them but this reminds me of a famous saying.... ' you can never reason someone out of a position that they were not reasoned into'.

[Greg Doudna]

To Jake Hammond and others: Ed LeDoux on the ROKC site has brilliantly and clearly correctly identified your lady with the camera: it is Wilma Irene Bond. https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2552-bond-no-not-james-wilma-irene 

Wilma Irene Bond has given testimony of her movements that day, and she never mentions going up to the front entrance of the TSBD. That appears to me to argue she is not Prayer Man.

Leaving Oswald himself as the best candidate for Prayer Man.

Well done Ed L.!