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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


Guest Duncan MacRae

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I'm quite certain that what people are seeing in Chris's photo, Post 280, are artifacts due to the photo being digitized and then having its brightness and contrast tweaked. But if he can obtain similar results on Frazier and Lovelady as suggested by Claude, I will shut up.

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Chris, in post#280 it appears you have put the PM issue to 'bed'. The photo enhancement technique you used, though rather simple shows PM to be a woman holding a coffee cup (someone else suggested this, but I can't help but agree). I have a suggestion. Every experiment has a 'control', this helps minimize variables. Forum members I'm sure will agree with 99% confidence, "we know where Lovelady and Frazier are standing". Chris, would you mind using the same enhancement techniques on Lovelady and Frazier as you used on PM. If the clarity of results are similar for Lovelady and Frazier, then it would help bolster the confidence of the results you got on PM.

Regards

Claude,

Shadow contrast won't help Lovelady within the same Wiegman frame. There is no information there.

Screen%20Shot%202016-06-02%20at%2010.35.

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Chris, in post#280 it appears you have put the PM issue to 'bed'. The photo enhancement technique you used, though rather simple shows PM to be a woman holding a coffee cup (someone else suggested this, but I can't help but agree). I have a suggestion. Every experiment has a 'control', this helps minimize variables. Forum members I'm sure will agree with 99% confidence, "we know where Lovelady and Frazier are standing". Chris, would you mind using the same enhancement techniques on Lovelady and Frazier as you used on PM. If the clarity of results are similar for Lovelady and Frazier, then it would help bolster the confidence of the results you got on PM.

Regards

Dear Claude,

I would be interested to know what leads you to believe that post No. 280 is such a strong argument for PM being a female drinking from a cup. I am also relatively new to the EF, however, spent some time already on analysis of the doorway pictures. I just struggle to identify any such features in Wiegman's frame which would justify the conclusion that the figure in question was a woman. You seem to accept the Prayer Woman explanation which is all right as far your individual view is concerned. However, would you then be also able to follow up? Who was this woman? The list of all male and female doorway occupants is very well known and therefore, there should not be a problem to eventually name the woman that allegedly stood at that particular spot. Did this woman also hold a purse or not? How tall she was? Is there any photograph available to compare this woman with the figure in question? Sorry to bombard you with my questions and would fully understand if you would prefer not giving any answers. However, some of readers want more than accepting an explanation without properly justifying it with details.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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In post #280, Chris wrote, “Sandy, I was wrong. It appears the person in Weigman is a woman, holding a coffee mug, out in front of her mouth.”

When I read that, I thought Chris was making a joke, but Claude apparently took him seriously. I sincerely value your opinions, Chris, could you clear this up for me?

Tom

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For Chris: here is a frame from Weigman, I believe, with PM and Lovelady clearly visible.

Please perform the same enhancement on the Lovelady figure that you did prior on PM. I think there is enough information content in this frame. I'm really interested in seeing those results. Also, an enhancement of BWF would help to 'fortify' your PM results.post-7262-0-94661400-1465055716_thumb.jpgpost-7262-0-52068700-1465055717_thumb.jpg

For Andrej: My comment about the woman coffee drinker was also meant to be tongue-in-cheek – sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm looking forward to further results from Chris. If he can do to BWF & Lovelady what he did to PM, then for me that seals the deal. However, I just can't see how such clarity can be obtained from such a poor quality photo. The PM thread expended a lot of energy locating the men on the TSBD steps. Not so sure about the woman, however. That top step (closest to the doors) was starting to get crowded. There was BWF almost at center rail. Otis Williams, Joe Molina and Pauline Sanders, all located east of the rail. That leaves no one identifiable on the west side. But IMHO there is one candidate besides Oswald and that would be Sarah Stanton. Others have identified her in the middle on the lower steps. I don't see that as definitive. According to CE1381, Mrs Sanders stated the following: “I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others.” Also from CE1381 Mrs Stanton states the following: “I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mr. William Shelley … Mrs. R.E. Sanders … and Billy Lovelady.” Those statements can lead to various interpretations. Since east of the rail was getting crowded, it makes sense to me that she would have taken a position west of the rail or gone to a lower step. Also from CE1381, Otis Williams states the following: “I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building. I do not recall who was standing at either side of me but I do know that Mrs. Robert E. Sanders … viewed the motorcade. …

Is there a forum member who can produce a photograph of Mrs Robert Sarah Stanton circa 1963. She would have been approximately 41 years old.

NOTE: my apologies for any attachment issues. I had to do a cut & paste. Still need to get the hang of this. Regards

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The process was simple:

Photoshop: Image: Adjustment: Shadow/Highlights: Amount 75 Tonal Width 75 and then:

Photoshop: Curves: RGB Channel: Output 35 Input 85

In other words, lighten the shadow area, then create contrast within.

Done deal

Claude,

Same process as above.

PM-LOVE.jpg

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In post #280, Chris wrote, “Sandy, I was wrong. It appears the person in Weigman is a woman, holding a coffee mug, out in front of her mouth.”

When I read that, I thought Chris was making a joke, but Claude apparently took him seriously. I sincerely value your opinions, Chris, could you clear this up for me?

Tom

Tom,

No joke. I call it as I see it.

Ghost.jpg

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Well done Chris for confirming The Death Of "Prayer Man" :up

Here She Is victory.gif

pw2.jpg

Duncan

Ever get the feeling that what you are doing has become so ridiculous, no one even takes the time to criticize it anymore?

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Well done Chris for confirming The Death Of "Prayer Man" :up

Here She Is victory.gif

pw2.jpg

Hello Duncan,

I have few questions which, if answered, would allow me to explore your hypothesis further. Would you please be able to name the woman? We know the names of female employees standing on the top platform or on the lower steps. No one from the people standing in the doorway had admitted to stand that close to the western wall. How tall is this woman? Why does the bright spot move across frames in Wiegman's film, and what does the alleged woman hold in her right hand? Does she stand on the top landing or on the step just below? If she stands on the top landing, what would be the distance between the frontal plane crossing her body and the front edge of the top landing? Is any part of her body lit by the sun light?

As far as your enlargement is concerned, I am afraid that the poor quality of the original picture does not allow to decide unequivocally about the identity of this person, which is one of the reasons why this debate continues. Various "shapes" seen may be photographic artefacts which our mind assembles into a "gestalt".

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Well done Chris for confirming The Death Of "Prayer Man" :up

Here She Is victory.gif

pw2.jpg

Duncan

Ever get the feeling that what you are doing has become so ridiculous, no one even takes the time to criticize it anymore?

was thinking the same thing... reeks like a Craig Lampoon, er, Lamson project!

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Well done Chris for confirming The Death Of "Prayer Man" :up

Here She Is victory.gif

pw2.jpg

Duncan

Ever get the feeling that what you are doing has become so ridiculous, no one even takes the time to criticize it anymore?

was thinking the same thing... reeks like a Craig Lampoon, er, Lamson project!

Sentences, and the names of people and places always begin with a capital letter. :news

If you are being picky, you should have a comma after "places."

:ice

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Well done Chris for confirming The Death Of "Prayer Man" :up

Here She Is victory.gif

pw2.jpg

Um... Duncan, why is it that your Prayer Man face is different from Chris Davidson's Prayer Man Face? Compare yours above, with Chris's below.

And, in fact, your Prayer Man face is far too big for the body. At least Chris's is about the right size.

Actually it looks like your picture isn't a crop from Chris's at all. Unless you did further processing on it. What gives?

Coffee.jpg

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Sentences, and the names of people and places always begin with a capital letter. :news

If you are being picky, you should have a comma after "places."

:ice

A quote should not contain punctuation marks which do not appear within the original quote. I didn't type "places." I typed "places"

A punctuation mark should never be followed by a punctuation mark. :clapping

"A quote should not contain punctuation marks which do not appear within the original quote. I didn't type "places." I typed "places"

Depends whether you are using the American system or the English.

Either is acceptable.

"A punctuation mark should never be followed by a punctuation mark."

Rubbish!

http://www.betterwritingskills.com/articles/quotation-marks.txt

You still omitted the comma after "places". :ice

Edited by James R Gordon
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