A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Thomas Graves]

33 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I don't recall specifically if my ex-wife gave the gerund the possessive. But I always have* since college days, and I don't recall her using poor grammar. In contrast, I do recall that my two best friends (at about the same time period) did NOT give the gerund the possessive. (Even though they both were at the top of their class and graduated summa cum laude.) So it seems like I would recall if the same were true with my ex-wife.

I think you owe me a quarter.

*I sometimes do not give the the gerund the possessive now that I've become a grammar rebel.

 

Okay, fine.  And since genius you and your first wife (evidently) used personal pronouns, etc, correctly with gerunds (or perhaps your wife cleverly avoided those grammatical quandaries altogether?), you apparently assume that "Harvey's" ability to do so was no great shakes.

Any Hungarian mother-tongued boy who then learned a Slavic language could do it, right? Piece of cake.  Let me ask you this, Mister Genius.  Why do so few college-educated Americans apply that rule?  Because they're "grammar rebels" like you?  Because they want to sound ignorant around those nerdy English majors? At formal dinner parties? (I rather doubt it.)

For our purposes (or at least mine), the important thing is that your Harvey DID apply that rule correctly.  What are the chances that an American guy would do that, much less a Russian-speaking descendant of Attila The Hun?

And (yes, I know...) NOT born and partially raised in Palo Alto, California (or even in Waco, Texas), but in FREAKING HUNGARY, or some such place.

LOL

(Give it up, Sandy. I should make you pay ME, now.)

--  Tommy 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Okay, fine.  And since genius you and your first wife (evidently) used personal pronouns, etc, correctly with gerunds (or perhaps your wife cleverly avoided those grammatical quandaries altogether?), you apparently assume that "Harvey's" ability to do so was no great shakes.

Any Hungarian mother-tongued boy who then learned a Slavic language could do it, right? Piece of cake.  Let me ask you this, Mister Genius.  Why do so few college-educated Americans apply that rule?  Because they're "grammar rebels" like you?  Because the want to sound ignorant to English majors?  (I rather doubt it.) For our purposes (or at least mine), the important thing is that your Harvey DID apply that rule correctly.  What are the chances that an American guy would do that, much less a Russians speaking descendant of Attila The Gun?

LOL

(Give it up, Sandy.)

--  Tommy 

 

Tommy,

I think that Oswald was quite intelligent. And my understanding is that he read a lot. He probably learned to use the gerund rule because of those two things.

I've never been very good with grammar myself... I just pick up on the way others speak. I think my two friends assumed they were speaking correctly when I corrected them regarding the gerund rule. They were both surprised, no doubt because my grammar had been so poor in high school, which is when we became friends. My grammar improved dramatically in college. Theirs was already great before entering college, and I don't think they improved much after that.

As for why most college-educated people don't follow the gerund rule, my guess is this: The rule is taught in high school, right? It is taught only once, and is in competition with the way these kids' friends speak every day. The rule is forgotten long before the high school diplomas are handed out.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

I think that Oswald was quite intelligent. And my understanding is that he read a lot. He probably learned to use the gerund rule because of those two things.

I've never been very good with grammar myself... I just pick up on the way others speak. I think my two friends assumed they were speaking correctly when I corrected them regarding the gerund rule. They were both surprised, no doubt because my grammar had been so poor in high school, which is when we became friends. My grammar improved dramatically in college. Theirs was already great before entering college, and I don't think they improved much after that.

As for why most college-educated people don't follow the gerund rule, my guess is this: The rule is taught in high school, right? It is taught only once, and is in competition with the way these kids' friends speak every day. The rule is forgotten long before the high school diplomas are handed out.

 

Sandy,

I hereby give up on you.

Here's my Parthian Shot:

In your opinion, who used better English syntax, grammar, and vocabulary -- Harvey, Lee, or Mickey Mouse?

--  Tommy 

PS  Good luck with the Gloria Calvery stuff .

Edited February 1, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Please stop misrepresenting what I say, Paul.

I think the Marines were telling the truth.

For example,  Erwin Donald Lewis said in his sworn affidavit, “It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he [Oswald] could read, write, and speak Russian.

The question I want you to answer is how did a high school dropout teach himself to read, write, and speak as difficult a language as Russian in a few months of spare time in the Marines?  

You tell us he attended Berlitz courses, which Delgado misconstrued as “Berlin,” but why is there no record of that whatsoever in USMC documents?

If you care to say he attended the Monterey School of Languages or a Berlitz School because he was being trained to become a Russian spy, that’s fine.  

Just say so!

Jim,

My explanation was complete and cogent.   Lee Harvey Oswald was a voracious reader.   He dropped out of high school because he couldn't stand living alone with his mother anymore.   She was a nagging person.

It wasn't because Oswald was unintelligent -- but public education in the 1960's -- particularly in poor neighborhoods -- did not afford much individual attention to people with special skills or special needs.  

Lee Harvey Oswald had been reading books on Marxism since his early teenage years.   He wasn't an expert in Marxism, by any stretch, but he did have a larger vocabulary than normal -- and he fancied himself an intellectual; for example, when he was asked on TV if he considered himself a Marxist, he replied, "Yes sir, I have studied Marx and other philosophers."  

We must be honest here, and ask -- WHO IN THE HECK STUDIES PHILOSOPHERS?   To be honest, very few people -- only intellectuals.

So, knowing that Lee Harvey Oswald was a SUPERIOR reader (even though he could hardly write or spell), then I have no doubt in my mind that he could teach himself to read Russian by using the Berlitz method of study.  

By the way -- anybody could buy a Berlitz book on Russian for $1.95 at almost any newspaper stand.   Also, Lee had a regular Marine salary, and he didn't go out on weekends to spend his money the way most Marines did -- so he could afford $1.95.

With his special reading skills, plus his vast interest in Marxism, plus his enjoyment of LOTS OF SPARE TIME on the El Toro Marine Base in California -- Lee Harvey Oswald taught himself to read Russian.

Just to be clear on this -- if I myself was 19, and I lived on a Marine Base, working only 40 hours a week, with free room and board, and I wanted to spend all the rest of my week learning to read Russian newspapers, by using my Berlitz Method language book -- and I did this for nine solid months -- I have no doubt in my mind that I could learn to read Russian as well (or better) than Lee Harvey Oswald.

So, for me, it's obviously possible.   And it's also clear to me that Lee Harvey Oswald had the brains (and the time) for it.   Also let me be clear -- just because a person has brains is no guarantee he has emotional maturity.   Lee Harvey Oswald was socially inept, despite his superior reading ability.   The Marines agreed on that point, too.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 1, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Jim Hargrove]

The Berlitz method is a total immersion foregin language experience based on teachers, and other people, not just books.  It uses what is called the "natural method" and uses only the language that is to be learned, not the subject's language.  You're not going to experience a Berlitz method by buying a book at a newspaper stand.

From Wikpedia:

The Berlitz Method

"The Berlitz Method" uses the direct method and focuses on using language as a tool for communication. The direct method, as opposed to the traditional grammar translation method, advocates teaching through the target language only – the rationale being that students will be able to work out grammatical rules from the input language provided, without necessarily being able to explain the rules overtly. Today, there are a variety of derivative methods and theories which find their beginnings in the natural and communicative elements that were pioneered by Berlitz.[13]

Wikipedia defines the "direct method" this way:

The direct method of teaching, which is sometimes called the natural method, and is often (but not exclusively) used in teaching foreign languages, refrains from using the learners' native language and uses only the target language.

Do you seriously expect us to believe that Harvey learned Russian on his own using a book that refrains from using a language he understood?

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

...Do you seriously expect us to believe that Harvey learned Russian on his own using a book that refrains from using a language he understood?

Jim,

Perhaps you are too young to remember Berlitz travel guides that introduced novices to foreign languages planning to travel to foreign lands.

They we're very popular back in the 1960's.   They offered the PERFECT place to start for any beginner.  They were available at almost any Travel Agency (remember those?) as well as at all the larger newspaper stands in Los Angeles.

Once one got started with Berlitz back in the 1960's, they offered more advanced books.  

Because they were so successful, they are even bigger and better today. Your citation of Wikipedia in 2018 fails to give a useful portrait of Berlitz in 1959.

Again -- it is rational to conclude that Lee Harvey Oswald taught himself to read Russian in 1959, taking nine months, using Berlitz and Russian newspapers.

I have already said that a Marxist vocabulary would be useful, too, and Lee Harvey Oswald was fairly well versed in Marxism since about age 15.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 1, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Michael Walton]

17 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

That is not hard to believe, IMHO.   Lee Harvey Oswald could not write well -- he could not spell well -- but he could READ very, very well.   That is how he taught himself to read Russian in one year.   It was his OBSESSION.    By tricking his way into the USSR, and spending 2.5 years immersed in the Russian language -- and using his Marxist vocabulary in the USSR -- he became fluent in conversational Russian.    That's not hard to believe at all, IMHO

This is a nice well-rounded summary of LHO's life, Paul. Thanks for posting it.

[Michael Walton]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The question I want you to answer is how did a high school dropout teach himself to read, write, and speak as difficult a language as Russian in a few months of spare time in the Marines?

So in other words just because  he dropped out of HS he wouldn't  have had the mental capacity to learn a second language?

Or put another way, this is the reason why there just had to be an Oswald clone because, you know, it's  important that someone  has got to have a HS diploma to learn a second language? And I  guess the clone had one?

And you  have proof  of  this Jim H?

[David Josephs]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 12:06 PM, Michael Walton said:

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 6:49 PM, Paul Trejo said:

That is not hard to believe, IMHO.   Lee Harvey Oswald could not write well -- he could not spell well -- but he could READ very, very well.   That is how he taught himself to read Russian in one year.   It was his OBSESSION.    By tricking his way into the USSR, and spending 2.5 years immersed in the Russian language -- and using his Marxist vocabulary in the USSR -- he became fluent in conversational Russian.    That's not hard to believe at all, IMHO

This is a nice well-rounded summary of LHO's life, Paul. Thanks for posting it.

Great... Blind leading the blind...

Now Oswald, "tricked" his way into Russia? 

So the documents showing the CIA investigating and finding no visa requests or visa applications for Oswald in and out of Finland/Sweden would lead me to believe either one of you can explain how he got his documentation other than from the SOVIETS or some pre-arranged process...

For every one thing PT claims to be true he creates 10 other things which conflict with his own conclusions... which are promptly forgotten about as he moves on...

This is the same process that brings you to accept Marina for the truth-teller she was....?

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Perhaps you are too young to remember Berlitz travel guides that introduced novices to foreign languages planning to travel to foreign lands.

They we're very popular back in the 1960's.   They offered the PERFECT place to start for any beginner.  They were available at almost any Travel Agency (remember those?) as well as at all the larger newspaper stands in Los Angeles.

Once one got started with Berlitz back in the 1960's, they offered more advanced books.  

Oh, puh-leeze!  Oswald was not able to have a two hour conversation with Rosaleen Quinn entirely in Russian in the spring of 1959 because he managed to learn how to say “Where is the train station, comrade” from some Russian guide book.  Not even the Warren Commission had the chutzpa to try to sell that one to us.  Ms. Quinn, by the way, took REAL Berlitz courses in Russian! 

[Jim Hargrove]

16 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Great... Blind leading the blind...

Now Oswald, "tricked" his way into Russia? 

So the documents showing the CIA investigating and finding no visa requests or visa applications for Oswald in and out of Finland/Sweden would lead me to believe either one of you can explain how he got his documentation other than from the SOVIETS or some pre-arranged process...

For every one thing PT claims to be true he creates 10 other things which conflict with his own conclusions... which are promptly forgotten about as he moves on...

This is the same process that brings you to accept Marina for the truth-teller she was....?

DJ,

Fascinating.  I either never knew this or forgot it.

I'm in the process of applying for a Russian visa for a vacation later this year, and it is a real pain in the butt.  The Russian Federation's paperwork, fee schedules, and processes make the typical DMV  look like a dream.  I'll bet it was no better back in the day.

[David Josephs]

2 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

DJ,

Fascinating.  I either never knew this or forgot it.

I'm in the process of applying for a Russian visa for a vacation later this year, and it is a real pain in the butt.  The Russian Federation's paperwork, fee schedules, and processes make the typical DMV  look like a dream.  I'll bet it was no better back in the day.

Unless you were in some type of military/cia program to get into Russia and report back....  and knew people in Helsinki.. 

I had just found it in the new release....  so yes, very new to me as well.

(note:  maybe if you let it slip you know Jared and Ivanka they'll speed it up for ya!) 

[Robert Harper]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

So the documents showing the CIA investigating and finding no visa requests or visa applications for Oswald in and out of Finland/Sweden would lead me to believe either one of you can explain how he got his documentation other than from the SOVIETS or some pre-arranged process...

 

42 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Fascinating.  I either never knew this or forgot it.

Messrs. Josephs and Hargrove: your frequent comments on the Harvey/Lee research has kept me very busy as a reader. For those who might have a difficult time  with the material, I offer my own experience. I bought the book and started it. Head spun too much during the  days. I always had a feeling that the pictures didn't make sense but just trying to accept each step seemed too hard. Then I started the book with the Nov 22 chapter, and read each chapter  in  reverse order. Everything made more sense. Popkin's book from years ago on "the second Oswald" made sense, but Armstrong managed to fix the lens for longshots as well. While I still can't account for the disappearance of the "tall, good looking Marguerite" and the reserve of Robert Oswald, the overall concept makes more sense than any alternative.

[Michael Walton]

30 minutes ago, Robert Harper said:

Head spun too much during the  days. I always had a feeling that the pictures didn't make sense

Robert sorry to hear about your head spinning trying to make double heads and tails of the clone story. A work of fiction can do that to folks.

Meanwhile good to see Dave "everything's  a conspiracy including  the  kitchen sink" Josephs  is here to come to the rescue to defend the story.

Oh wait I  stand corrected. There's  one theory he does NOT support....one of the shooters was over by the pavillion near a Nash Rambler shooting over the heads  of the crowd.

[Jim Hargrove]

41 minutes ago, Robert Harper said:

 

Messrs. Josephs and Hargrove: your frequent comments on the Harvey/Lee research has kept me very busy as a reader. For those who might have a difficult time  with the material, I offer my own experience. I bought the book and started it. Head spun too much during the  days. I always had a feeling that the pictures didn't make sense but just trying to accept each step seemed too hard. Then I started the book with the Nov 22 chapter, and read each chapter  in  reverse order. Everything made more sense. Popkin's book from years ago on "the second Oswald" made sense, but Armstrong managed to fix the lens for longshots as well. While I still can't account for the disappearance of the "tall, good looking Marguerite" and the reserve of Robert Oswald, the overall concept makes more sense than any alternative.

Thanks, Robert! I’ve been studying that book for nearly 15 years now, and there is still lots of stuff in it I can’t remember.  It’s just got too much packed into more than a thousand pages of type. (Plus about 800 pages worth of graphics are on the accompanying CD.)  It is easier to use as a reference work than as a start to finish read.  

Most of us have assumed Harvey Oswald had some inside information to know how to use Helsinki and Stockholm to gain legal entry into the USSR in record time, but the fact that no paper trail out of Finland or Sweden seems to have been found is just stunning!  I'll have to look into this some more.  I'm sure the most complete info on the early days of the so-called "defection" will be right in the pages of Harvey and Lee!