The Finger Finally Points to Pentagon Chief Lemnitzer

[Paul Brancato]

13 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

I think I tend to agree with you.

 

Lately, I've been speculating lately on "revenge as motive" for the hit on JFK.

Not so much for what he "might" do with respect to getting out of Vietnam, or eliminating the oil depletion allowance, etc., but for what JFK "had" done; and looking at the people who had been "exiled to the frontier". So far, I've come up with Lyman Lemnitzer and William King Harvey, who was transferred to Rome after the Cuban Missile Crisis. Remember his handwritten ZR/Rifle to use Corsicans rather than Mafia. Being CIA Station Chief in Rome would make him pretty well positioned to find some.

I think they sat out there in the boondocks and stewed.

In ancient Roman times, wasn't it the generals who had been banished to Gaul who were always stirring up trouble, with this legion or that legion always seemingly ready to "cross the Rubicon" at any moment?

 

Although they weren't exiled, I'd add Allen Dulles and Charles Cabell, who were forced into retirement rather than banished to the frontier.

 

Anybody else you can think of that fit this bill?

 

As far as the Army Reserve Colonels, I think they were more "boots on the ground" than anything; the "mechanics" of how it went down.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve - We are in the same page. So was JFK, who feared this very scenario. You and I have shared info on the reserve units, and the makeup of the motorcade, and were struck in particular by how many army reservists, colonels etc were around, Jack Crichton in particular stands out. You dug up stuff on Colonel Brandstetter (Army) and then discovered in his book Our Man in Acapulco that Phillipe de Vosjoli hightailed it to Acapulco to stay with 'Brandy' immediately after the assassination. Talking about possible connections to Europe and Gladio. Btw Walker was Army, and Lemnitzer was called in to talk to Congress about Walker after the 'Blue' incident that got Walker 'fired' (actually reassigned but he chose to quit and forego his pension. No big deal for a friend of H L Hunt). So clearly Walker was no stranger to Lemnitzer. I also discovered that the snake in the Vietnamese grass who stabbed JFK in the back metaphorically speaking, Cabot Lodge, was ex Army Colonel. Of course none of this precludes Lansdale or others who were from other branches. Thanks Ron for pointing out that Dulles was Lansdale's patron. 

[Ron Bulman]

30 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - We are in the same page. So was JFK, who feared this very scenario. You and I have shared info on the reserve units, and the makeup of the motorcade, and were struck in particular by how many army reservists, colonels etc were around, Jack Crichton in particular stands out. You dug up stuff on Colonel Brandstetter (Army) and then discovered in his book Our Man in Acapulco that Phillipe de Vosjoli hightailed it to Acapulco to stay with 'Brandy' immediately after the assassination. Talking about possible connections to Europe and Gladio. Btw Walker was Army, and Lemnitzer was called in to talk to Congress about Walker after the 'Blue' incident that got Walker 'fired' (actually reassigned but he chose to quit and forego his pension. No big deal for a friend of H L Hunt). So clearly Walker was no stranger to Lemnitzer. I also discovered that the snake in the Vietnamese grass who stabbed JFK in the back metaphorically speaking, Cabot Lodge, was ex Army Colonel. Of course none of this precludes Lansdale or others who were from other branches. Thanks Ron for pointing out that Dulles was Lansdale's patron. 

Your welcome Paul, I'm in over my head but please elaborate further.  Lodge and as Jim D mentioned LeMay's CIA ties seem particularly interesting for some reason.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Ron Bulman

[Chuck Schwartz]

Bill Kelly, in a recent posting on his website (JFK Countercoup) mentions Curtis E Lemay.."

Shortly after the Walker shooting Oswald took a bus to his hometown of New Orleans, where he got a job and an apartment, and Ruth Paine drove Marina and the rifle to the Big Easy where they had an eventful summer.

A few months later Ruth Paine wrote the pregnant Marina a letter asking her to move in with her in Texas until she had the baby, and gave a return address of "Arthur Young - Paoli, Pennsylvania," Michael Paine's step dad, the inventor of the Bell Helicopter, who had arranged for Michael to work at the Dallas helicopter plant.

Marina accepted and Ruth Paine stopped in New Orleans and picked up Marina and the rifle and drove them to Texas while Oswald went to Mexico.

On the same day, September 25, 1963, the Joint Chiefs of Staff met at the Pentagon where they were briefed on covert Cuban operations by CIA officer Desmond FitzGerald.

According to a memo prepared by Col. Higgens, aide to General Krulak, the meeting was chaired by Air Force Chief General Curtis LeMay, as General Taylor was in Vietnam.

Higgins also noted in his memo that the CIA was preparing a "detailed study" of the July 20, 1944 plot to kill Hitler to be adapted for use against Fidel Castro of Cuba." And, as I recall, it was DAP who said the plan to kill Castro was used to kill JFK instead.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

The above quote was from JFK Countercoup2.

[Michael Walton]

I find it very hard to believe that any of the generals could have been involved in the murder.  For all of their bluster, it would have taken a lot of planning and manipulating to get all of the pieces in place, including hooking up LHO with the White Russian community after he returned from the USSR and so on.

There could have been very hushed rumors going around among them and the government itself about the impending murder, but the actual mechanics of getting it done was IMO a much smaller affair, not some big showy event with the generals manned at their phones commanding people down in NO and Dallas to get LHO to hand out flyers in NO, to get him the job in Dealey, etc.

I think Simpich's State Secret pretty much shows all of those mechanics taking place, so who needed Lemintzer or LeMay doing this or how could they even have been involved?  It was totally unnecessary anyway.  Although State Secret does not show the ultimate smoking gun - documentation showing who pulled the trigger in the crossfire - it's obvious that somewhere along the way, this plan was piggy-backed to change who the assassination target was going to be.

I just cannot see any of the generals being involved.

[Paul Brancato]

6 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

I find it very hard to believe that any of the generals could have been involved in the murder.  For all of their bluster, it would have taken a lot of planning and manipulating to get all of the pieces in place, including hooking up LHO with the White Russian community after he returned from the USSR and so on.

There could have been very hushed rumors going around among them and the government itself about the impending murder, but the actual mechanics of getting it done was IMO a much smaller affair, not some big showy event with the generals manned at their phones commanding people down in NO and Dallas to get LHO to hand out flyers in NO, to get him the job in Dealey, etc.

I think Simpich's State Secret pretty much shows all of those mechanics taking place, so who needed Lemintzer or LeMay doing this or how could they even have been involved?  It was totally unnecessary anyway.  Although State Secret does not show the ultimate smoking gun - documentation showing who pulled the trigger in the crossfire - it's obvious that somewhere along the way, this plan was piggy-backed to change who the assassination target was going to be.

I just cannot see any of the generals being involved.

JFK had no trouble imagining such a scenario. I guess the key is who arranged the contract, and who was the contractor? It was a group of Generals who put the contract on on DeGaulle,, who himself thought that JFK had fallen victim to a similar group. Those generals did not take part in the ambush. Are you in doubt that these particular generals we are discussing didn't have means, motive, and opportunity? Perhaps in our thinking we become too distracted by the Oswald tale. Those who created Oswald's bonafides, the footprints of intelligence that define his adult life, had other intelligence purposes, and were not intended to set him up as a patsy assassin or a real one. The generals did not have to in any way be involved in the Legend. They had to sub-contract an ambush. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[Chuck Schwartz]

Lemay thought JFK appeased Russia like Chamberlin appeased Hitler.  To quote an historian, " LeMay’s job, of course, was to make military options available to the president. And that was something he was good at–some would say, too good. In this excerpt, LeMay is simply presenting the air strike options. But never shy, LeMay tended to cross the line into advocacy of military action, something that bothered Kennedy. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, LeMay had told Kennedy that the course the President had settled on–a naval blockade of Cuba–was a bad idea and was “almost as bad as the appeasement at Munich.” And at another point of this November 16 meeting, he advocated “solving” the problem, by which he meant implementing CINCLANT OPLAN 312-62, the air attack plan for Cuba."

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

Lemay thought JFK appeased Russia like Chamberlin appeased Hitler.  To quote an historian, " LeMay’s job, of course, was to make military options available to the president. And that was something he was good at–some would say, too good. In this excerpt, LeMay is simply presenting the air strike options. But never shy, LeMay tended to cross the line into advocacy of military action, something that bothered Kennedy. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, LeMay had told Kennedy that the course the President had settled on–a naval blockade of Cuba–was a bad idea and was “almost as bad as the appeasement at Munich.” And at another point of this November 16 meeting, he advocated “solving” the problem, by which he meant implementing CINCLANT OPLAN 312-62, the air attack plan for Cuba."

There's a thread below this on Umbrella man. I think it's worth repeating that  Neville Chamberlain, the Munich appeaser, was called Umbrella Man. 

[Ron Bulman]

14 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

I find it very hard to believe that any of the generals could have been involved in the murder.  For all of their bluster, it would have taken a lot of planning and manipulating to get all of the pieces in place, including hooking up LHO with the White Russian community after he returned from the USSR and so on.

There could have been very hushed rumors going around among them and the government itself about the impending murder, but the actual mechanics of getting it done was IMO a much smaller affair, not some big showy event with the generals manned at their phones commanding people down in NO and Dallas to get LHO to hand out flyers in NO, to get him the job in Dealey, etc.

I think Simpich's State Secret pretty much shows all of those mechanics taking place, so who needed Lemintzer or LeMay doing this or how could they even have been involved?  It was totally unnecessary anyway.  Although State Secret does not show the ultimate smoking gun - documentation showing who pulled the trigger in the crossfire - it's obvious that somewhere along the way, this plan was piggy-backed to change who the assassination target was going to be.

I just cannot see any of the generals being involved.

I can see one.  I can't see the Joint Chiefs of Staff planning, organizing and executing the execution.  Not even conclusive prior knowledge, except one.  One with known animosity towards JFK, as well as having CIA connections.  One who could be approached by  those orchestrating the assassination through the CIA to ensure no world wide response from the Air Force, as well as having influence with the other JCS.  One who would rush to Bethesda for the autopsy from points unknown on 11/22/63.  To help control it?  For who?  

[Craig Carvalho]

Since I last posted here I have read two of John Newman's books, Oswald and the CIA, and Countdown to Darkness. I am currently waiting on Jefferson Morley's, Our Man in Mexico, and his yet to be released, The Ghost, (a study of James J. Angleton). My suspicions are leading me toward the possibility that Angleton's mole hunt was a sham. I do believe there was in fact a mole, but that Angleton knew who the mole was and did not want him discovered.

My theory is, in part, that Angleton had someone approach Oswald acting as a Soviet agent to recruit and help plan his defection to the U.S.S.R.. I believe Oswald remained under the impression that he was working for the K.G.B. up until his departure from Mexico City. Mexico City, IMO, was the ultimate betrayal from Oswald's point of view. This was perhaps the tipping point at which Oswald finally realized he had been duped... "I'm just a patsy".

With his dream of going to Cuba now all but extinguished, this betrayal, I believe, was his motive for committing the assassination and unwittingly assisting, once again, the puppet masters who manipulated his strings.   

Edited September 10, 2017 by Craig Carvalho

[Paul Brancato]

You had me until you got to the last sentence.

[Craig Carvalho]

Hello Paul,

Let me explain that last sentence a bit further.

Oswald was a Marxist. When he applied for his visa passport before going to the Soviet Union, the first country he listed as a point of interest was Cuba. When he confronted the U.S. consul in Moscow and stated that he was a Marxist, the consul, Richard Snyder, replied rather sarcastically that he would find life in the U.S.S.R. rather lonesome as one. This remark seemed to go without notice by Oswald.

Put simply, Cuba, IMO, was always Oswald's ultimate destination.

The last part of my sentence refers to Oswald "unwittingly assisting" those who manipulated him. I believe that in any conspiracy to assassinate president Kennedy, those who controlled Oswald, controlled the conspiracy.

"Oswald was a useful idiot."  -  William Kent, CIA operative, and close associate of David Atlee Philips  

 

 

Edited September 10, 2017 by Craig Carvalho

[Michael Walton]

3 hours ago, Craig Carvalho said:

With his dream of going to Cuba now all but extinguished, this betrayal, I believe, was his motive for committing the assassination and unwittingly assisting, once again, the puppet masters who manipulated his strings.

Uhh, no. Very wrong. You must not know many other things about the case including it being impossible for someone to pull off the shooting feat that the WC wants to pin on LHO, the way with mere minutes after the shooting a description goes out based on not Oswald's description but a guy named Webster from three years before, and many other items.

It's good that you've read Newman's work but please read State Secret by Bill Simpich.  You'll see how it all came together there and there's solid evidence to show that LHO had not even gone to MC.

[Craig Carvalho]

Hello Michael,

Wonderful to see the younger generation showing an interest in this topic. A word of advice. Read everything you can get your hands on... and make up your own mind. 

Best of luck to you!

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/9/2017 at 9:37 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I can see one.  I can't see the Joint Chiefs of Staff planning, organizing and executing the execution.  Not even conclusive prior knowledge, except one.  One with known animosity towards JFK, as well as having CIA connections.  One who could be approached by  those orchestrating the assassination through the CIA to ensure no world wide response from the Air Force, as well as having influence with the other JCS.  One who would rush to Bethesda for the autopsy from points unknown on 11/22/63.  To help control it?  For who?  

I agree.

We all know that our military took no serious retaliatory action against any foreign country or group in response to JFK's assassination.

No military, economic or even political action "on a level that one would expect"  our military leadership ( Chiefs Of Staff ) would or should have believed was due for such an unbelievably high crime against our country.

Yes, we continued our antagonistic actions against Cuba, but "if we really thought Castro was behind the assassination"  he wouldn't have been walking on this Earth very long after.

I believe there is a message in that non-action.  One of the assassination not being planned and carried out by any foreign country or group.

According to David Talbot and his book "Brothers" JFK truly feared a coup from his own military. He knew their animosity towards him was so deep, the idea of their replacing him wasn't too far out of the realm of possibility. He encouraged Hollywood insider John Frankenheimer to make a film "Seven Days In May" from the novel of the same name by Fletcher Knebel and Charles Bailey II.

Obviously, whoever planned this executive action was smart enough to know how to compartmentalize it so successfully that hardly no one knew anything but their specific and surely very limited instructions. 

Oswald was surely kept ignorant of what his real place in this scheme was until his escape team didn't show up and he was almost taken out  by Tippit. Oswald was armed and life and death jumpy when confronted by Tippet and he made an immediate and desperate decision to save his own life over Tippit's.

Oswald's one hour of flight freedom and his two days of still living incarceration must have had the powers to be in frantic mode themselves.

Jack Ruby may or may not have saved Jackie Kennedy from the horror of having to testify at a possible Oswald's trial in Dallas,  but he for sure completely solved the Oswald problem for countless others.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Joe Bauer