Witten's report on Oswald in Mexico just released

[Mathias Baumann]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mathias,

Please tell me the date you have in mind, and the source document from which you derived your information on Marina and Webster.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

Jim Hargroves has posted this Information somewhere on this thread I think. But you can also read about it here:

Quote

--> http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.de/2008/06/other-defector.html

Lee Oswald was not the only man to defect to the Soviet Union in the late 1950s. There were others such as Robert E. Webster. A former navy man, Webster was assigned to set up a trade display for the Rand Corporation in Moscow in October of 1959. For unknown reasons he decided to defect while there, just two weeks before Oswald did. Oddly, when Webster went to the US Embassy in Moscow to defect, Henry Rand, head of the corporation and a top executive, George Bookbinder, accompanied him. Both Rand and Bookbinder served together in the OSS (Office of Strategic Services), the forerunner of the CIA. The Rand Corporation did contractual work for the CIA. Like Oswald, Webster went to defect on a Saturday and failed. He was told to return the following Monday when the Embassy was open. Webster had another thing in common with Oswald--he would become disenchanted with life in the Soviet system and return to the Untied States in May of 1962.

It gets stranger. Robert Webster is on the record stating that he never knew or met Oswald while in Russia. Yet Oswald, when preparing to return to the U.S., asked embassy officials about Webster. How did Oswald know about him? Meanwhile, Webster claimed to have met Oswald’s wife Marina while there. She on the other hand, denied ever knowing him.

Now if Webster's story is true then the most logical explanation for this remarkable coincidence is of course that she was a KGB informer. Which might explain why she was allowed to marry Oswald in the first place AND leave the country with him.

[Mathias Baumann]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mathias,

Although Bill Simpich does admit that he is guessing that CIA agent David Morales was the CIA Mole who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald over the,most wire-tapped telephone in Mexico City, however, Simpich is CERTAIN that the top secret CIA Mole Hunt was REAL.

There was never any doubt.  Oswald was impersonated over THAT telephone in Mexico City on October 1, 1963.  The Mole Hunt is real history.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

I've never doubted that Oswald was impersonated over the phone. What I doubt is that the purpose of that call was to link him to Kostikov in order to set up him as the fall guy for a crime that would take place 6 weeks later and hundreds of kilometers away from Mexico.

The mole hunt story explains why information about Oswald's trip to the Cuban embassy was kept confidential. That part of Simpich's theory makes a lot of sense.

But it does not explain who made the call and for what reason.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

Jim Hargroves has posted this Information somewhere on this thread I think. But you can also read about it here:

Now if Webster's story is true then the most logical explanation for this remarkable coincidence is of course that she was a KGB informer. Which might explain why she was allowed to marry Oswald in the first place AND leave the country with him.

Mathias,

Jim Hargroves operates here with guesswork,"what if," and undocumented rumors, just like his mentor, John Armstrong

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 22, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Mathias Baumann]

12 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mathias,

Jim Hargroves operates here with guesswork,"what if," and undocumented rumors, just like his mentor, John Armstrong

 

 

Paul,

this is from State Secret:

Quote

One story illustrates how strong this resemblance was between Oswald and Webster. Robert Webster met Oswald’s future wife Marina Prusakova at the American Exhibition held in Moscow during the summer of 1959.

They saw each other again in 1960. Curiously, Marina spoke English to Webster, while she only spoke Russian when she came to the United States with Oswald.[ 2 ] On one occasion, Marina even confused Webster with Oswald. Webster and Oswald were used to loosen Soviet tongues, and they may have never realized it.

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter1.html

You've read that, haven't you?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Mathias Baumann

[Paul Trejo]

30 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

this is from State Secret:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter1.html

You've read that, haven't you?

Mathias,

The following is my opinion.   I think everybody here must have read this old story.   Yet the operative word is STORY.

Even Bill Simpich refers to it as a STORY -- i.e. it is an undocumented, unverified STORY.

The source of the STORY is probably Robert Webster himself.  What we have seen from behavior of other reporters to the FBI and CIA in the JFK Assassination history, that they frequently tell the FBI and the CIA a STORY that they believe might be helpful -- even if the STORY is an exaggeration or even a fiction.

For example, in December 1963, Gilberto Alvarado told the CIA in Mexico City that he saw and heard a red-headed Negro give Lee Harvey Oswald $6,500 at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City, in order to assassinate JFK.  Alvarado said he believed that STORY would be helpful to the CIA.  Later the CIA pushed him about the truth of the story, and he admitted it was a STORY of pure fiction.

So -- again -- Bill Simpich refers to Webster's STORY in passing, partly to illustrate the kind of baloney that was circulating during the first few years of the Warren Commission controversies.  Even Bill Simpich doesn't offer any documentation or sources on the STORY.  

Here is a former CIA "asset", Webster, with a STORY claiming that he was close with Marina Prusakova-Oswald in MOSCOW, though she lived in MINSK, as poor as a church-mouse, with no funds to travel.  Webster claims two other factors, to attempt to portray Marina Oswald (18 years old) as a KGB agent:

1.  He met Marina again in MOSCOW in 1960.   The context of the meeting is not told -- i.e. the most important part

2.  Marina spoke English to Webster.   The context of the English is not told -- i.e. the most important part.   Did she say, "please pass the salt?"   Did she say, "Stay cool, man!"?   Was she trying to impress him with a few English phrases she learned from Lee?  WHAT THE HELL DID SHE SAY?   That's so important, but it's not told.  The INSINUATION is that Marina Oswald was FLUENT in English -- but that is not explicitly said.  Instead, as with most CIA-did-it CTer nonsense, it's just a "what if" and more guesswork. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Michael Walton]

56 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mathias,

Jim Hargroves operates here with guesswork,"what if," and undocumented rumors, just like his mentor, John Armstrong

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Yes, Paul.  A very accurate statement above.  And don't forget his followers as well.

[Paul Trejo]

On 11/22/2017 at 11:33 AM, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

I've never doubted that Oswald was impersonated over the phone. What I doubt is that the purpose of that call was to link him to Kostikov in order to set up him as the fall guy for a crime that would take place 6 weeks later and hundreds of kilometers away from Mexico.

The mole hunt story explains why information about Oswald's trip to the Cuban embassy was kept confidential. That part of Simpich's theory makes a lot of sense.

But it does not explain who made the call and for what reason.

Mathias,

I must disagree, here.   Bill Simpich demonstrated -- with copious primary documents (several FOIA recent CIA releases) -- that the CIA high-command knew within ONE HOUR of the telephone impersonation of Lee Harvey Oswald that the speaker was not Lee Harvey Oswald.

And while that was fairly suspicious -- the fact that set the bells ringing all over the CIA high-command was the name "Valery Kostikov" because that was the name of an infamous KGB assassin in 1963 Mexico City.

The CIA knew this.  The Mexico City police knew this.  The Mexican Military knew this.  Kostikov was a wanted man, who did not leave the USSR Embassy without heavy surveillance.

FURTHERMORE -- this infamous telephone call was made on the single most wire-tapped telephone on planet Earth. 

THEREFORE -- the CIA high-command rightly guessed that the Telephone Impersonator of Lee Harvey Oswald had to be an Insider Mole, who knew absolutely that this telephone was heavily wire-tapped -- and that the name of "Valery Kostikov" would send bells ringing all over the CIA.

The Telephone Impersonator failed to realize, however, that the CIA wiretappers would be so good at their jobs that they would realize right away that the Impersonation was WEAK.  The CIA started a top-secret Mole Hunt that very DAY -- and their rationale was based on TWO factors: WHO did this, and WHY.

The CIA knew for a fact: (1) A CIA Mole did this; and (2) the Mole did this in order to send an alarm about Kostikov meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on Friday 27 September 1963.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Brancato]

5 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Paul Trejo - how do you respond to this question? And since you were part of the discussion on this forum with Simpich in which he stated he was agnostic on the question of whether Oswald was in MC at all, I would appreciate your acknowledgement of that exchange. 

 

I'm not going to give up on this until you acknowledge that Simpich himself refused to agree with you on this forum, and is not sure Oswald was ever in MC. Neither CIA or FBI or anyone else ever presented a photo or voice print of the real Oswald in MC. Most logical assumption is he wasn't there. Yet the evidence that CIA started hunting for the impersonator only exists in regards to a particular phone call, not in reference to the rest of the stories of Oswald in MC. if Oswald wasn't there at all, then why weren't Angleton and Egerter looking for the impersonator who actually visited the embassies? Because they were sheepdipping him. In order to hide that, they pretended not to know who made the impersonated phone calls. And if they were setting up Oswald the rest of the time in MC, they probably arranged the phone calls in question so that they could insert a paper trail to make it look like they were mystified. 

 

[Mathias Baumann]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mathias,

The following is my opinion.   I think everybody here must have read this old story.   Yet the operative word is STORY.

Even Bill Simpich refers to it as a STORY -- i.e. it is an undocumented, unverified STORY.

The source of the STORY is probably Robert Webster himself.  What we have seen from behavior of other reporters to the FBI and CIA in the JFK Assassination history, that they frequently tell the FBI and the CIA a STORY that they believe might be helpful -- even if the STORY is an exaggeration or even a fiction.

For example, in December 1963, Gilberto Alvarado told the CIA in Mexico City that he saw and heard a red-headed Negro give Lee Harvey Oswald $6,500 at the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City, in order to assassinate JFK.  Alvarado said he believed that STORY would be helpful to the CIA.  Later the CIA pushed him about the truth of the story, and he admitted it was a STORY of pure fiction.

So -- again -- Bill Simpich refers to Webster's STORY in passing, partly to illustrate the kind of baloney that was circulating during the first few years of the Warren Commission controversies.  Even Bill Simpich doesn't offer any documentation or sources on the STORY.  

Here is a former CIA "asset", Webster, with a STORY claiming that he was close with Marina Prusakova-Oswald in MOSCOW, though she lived in MINSK, as poor as a church-mouse, with no funds to travel.  Webster claims two other factors, to attempt to portray Marina Oswald (18 years old) as a KGB agent:

1.  He met Marina again in MOSCOW in 1960.   The context of the meeting is not told -- i.e. the most important part

2.  Marina spoke English to Webster.   The context of the English is not told -- i.e. the most important part.   Did she say, "please pass the salt?"   Did she say, "Stay cool, man!"?   Was she trying to impress him with a few English phrases she learned from Lee?  WHAT THE HELL DID SHE SAY?   That's so important, but it's not told.  The INSINUATION is that Marina Oswald was FLUENT in English -- but that is not explicitly said.  Instead, as with most CIA-did-it CTer nonsense, it's just a "what if" and more guesswork. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

I don't think we've read the same text. To me it's obvious that Simpich believes that Webster's story is plausible and NOT baloney. He uses his testimony to stress the fact that Oswald and Webster looked very similar. Marina thought erroneously that Oswald was the man she'd met at the Trade Fair in Moscow. Webster's testimony - which by the way he gave to author Dick Russel - is corroborated by this FBI report:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406&relPageId=265

 

 

[Mathias Baumann]

 

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

And while that was fairly suspicious -- the fact that set the bills ringing all over the CIA high-command was the name "Valery Kostikov" because that was the name of an infamous KGB assassin in 1963 Mexico City.

The CIA knew this.  The Mexico City police knew this.  The Mexican Military knew this.  Kostikov was a wanted man, who did not leave the USSR Embassy without heavy surveillance.

 

Paul,

again I don't think we've read the same text.

Quote

There is also no sign that anyone at the CIA or the FBI was seriously concerned that Soviet consul Valeriy Kostikov was part of the KGB’s “assassination bureau” known as Department 13 prior to the assassination, as was claimed by Angleton’s colleague Golitsyn and by the Soviet Union section right after the assassination. This was because Angleton had told the FBI as recently as June 1963 that the CIA had no information that Kostikov had anything to do with Department 13. Both the FBI and CIA had been tracking Kostikov's double agent (FBI code name TUMBLEWEED; CIA code name AEBURBLE) for months, and the FBI relied on Angelton's reassurance that there was no evidence that Kostikov was a member of Department 13. If there was any genuine concern, CIA counterintelligence would have kept Kostikov firmly in their sights after Mexico City mentioned Oswald’s call to Kostikov on October 8.

Source: https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter5.html

 

[Paul Trejo]

46 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

I don't think we've read the same text. To me it's obvious that Simpich believes that Webster's story is plausible and NOT baloney. He uses his testimony to stress the fact that Oswald and Webster looked very similar. Marina thought erroneously that Oswald was the man she'd met at the Trade Fair in Moscow. Webster's testimony - which by the way he gave to author Dick Russel - is corroborated by this FBI report:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406&relPageId=265

Mathias,

Oh, we've read the same text, all right.  Yet in my opinion you've missed several important nuances in the text.

Bill Simpich and Dick Russell are not claiming that these claimed events actually HAPPENED, but are cautiously sharing that Robert Webster himself claimed that this happened. 

That's a major nuance, and I think you've overlooked it.   Now, what was Robert Webster's motivation for making these claims about Marina Oswald?

Does it mean little or nothing to you that Marina Oswald denied these allegations?   Why do you state them as fact, Mathias, when all that is being presented is a REPORT FROM A BIASED SOURCE?

Robert Webster is trying to hang Marina Oswald as a KGB agent.  His motivation is therefore part of the Reds-did-it CT, which was the original CT coming out of Dallas, Texas on the weekend of 11/22/1963.   (Hey, that's exactly 54 years ago today!)

Robert Webster, in my opinion, belongs to the Right-wing -- that's how he's talking.  He seems to hate Marina Oswald, and pretends he has some dirt on her.  What a jackass.   He has NOTHING but his big mouth.  How about some confirmation?  None?  Crickets?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

37 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Paul,

again I don't think we've read the same text.

Mathias,

You're referring to the Kostikov telephone call?   Then read CHAPTER FIVE of Bill Simpich's State Secret (2014).

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

I'm not going to give up on this until you acknowledge that Simpich himself refused to agree with you on this forum, and is not sure Oswald was ever in MC.

Neither CIA or FBI or anyone else ever presented a photo or voice print of the real Oswald in MC. Most logical assumption is he wasn't there.

Yet the evidence that CIA started hunting for the impersonator only exists in regards to a particular phone call, not in reference to the rest of the stories of Oswald in MC.

if Oswald wasn't there at all, then why weren't Angleton and Egerter looking for the impersonator who actually visited the embassies?

Because they were sheepdipping him. In order to hide that, they pretended not to know who made the impersonated phone calls.

And if they were setting up Oswald the rest of the time in MC, they probably arranged the phone calls in question so that they could insert a paper trail to make it look like they were mystified. 

Paul B.,

Your logic is so full of holes that it's difficult to know where to begin.   Yet, we've been through this for six years on this Forum, haven't we?

It is quite true that Bill Simpich continues to reject my Walker-did-it CT.   Also, Bill Simpich prefers to keep his options open with regard to the final interpretation of his brilliant, original discovery of the top secret CIA Mole Hunt that started on October 1, 1963 in Mexico City, in search of the Telephone Impersonator of Lee Harvey Oswald.

It is quite true that the historical fact of this top secret CIA Mole Hunt does not require that LHO was actually in Mexico City -- but it doesn't discount that LHO was in Mexico City, either.   That is why I add further primary documents and witnesses for my CT.  Former CIA asset Edwin Lopez himself said under oath and on video, that he was certain that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Mexico City during the final week of September 1963. 

So, get your facts straight, Paul B., and quit mixing in your "what ifs" and "must have beens."    

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jim Hargrove]

STOP IT, MR. TREJO!

CIA accountant James Wilcott talked at length to the HSCA about "Lee Harvey Oswald."  Wilcott called it "the Oswald Project." According to Mr. Wilcott, the Oswald Project had a CIA cryptonym.  It was RK-ZIM.

 

Do you understand?  The Harvey and Lee project crypto name at the CIA was RK-ZIM.

[Michael Clark]

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Paul B.,

Your logic is so full of holes ....

..........

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

43 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

STOP IT, MR. TREJO!......

..........

Agreed, Jim.

Paul Trejo fills his holes with inbred dialectics (an oxymoron; a contradiction in terms, an impossibility, a fallacy) , which he prefers to call "nuances".

 

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Michael Clark