Shooter Location

[Ron Bulman]

Boy does this get deep.  Chris, you say 2 shot's 1/3 of a second apart.  I read elsewhere 2-3-4 or more years ago about two shot's hitting JFK in the head simultaneously or a "split" second apart, and thought no way.  But it's not impossible two could have been planned as insurance that at least one would surely hit.  If I remember right what I read about though assumed one from the back first (Dal-Tex?) then one from the grassy knoll.

Now if I understand David right both the storm drain and the south knoll are legit possibilities.  I really respect Penn Jones as a original local persistent researcher. But I never could get behind the storm drain, even after standing above it and looking up the street at the X's.  While a limited view/field of fire the shot would be upward and a potential miss would have less chance of hitting someone else.  But I could never wrap my head around it, the getaway, crawling or running stooped over a long way with a rifle.  There was a story years back about running through the sewer all the way to the Trinity river bottom to a light plane that barely touched down for a pickup.  Other stories of intricate underground tunnels of Dallas.  When Sherry Fiester's book Enemy of the Truth first came out I thought how do you get "back and to the left" from the South knoll.  Then I read the book.  She was quite scientific in proving it is a possibility.  Bless her memory for her effort.

Educate me more Ladies and Gentlemen.  But please go slow and use plain English.  Seems I'm getting older and slower by the day.    

Edited January 26, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Chris Davidson]

Something like this for any of the head shots.

If so, is the recreation head (disregard Jackie's position) in the correct orientation for a North Knoll head shot?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LL8rZt-t3rjOGaNiLJvN2I828RHadMYa/view?usp=sharing

[Chris Davidson]

30 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Boy does this get deep.  Chris, you say 2 shot's 1/3 of a second apart.  I read elsewhere 2-3-4 or more years ago about two shot's hitting JFK in the head simultaneously or a "split" second apart, and thought no way.  But it's not impossible two could have been planned as insurance that at least one would surely hit.  If I remember right what I read about though assumed one from the back first (Dal-Tex?) then one from the grassy knoll.

Now if I understand David right both the storm drain and the south knoll are legit possibilities.  I really respect Penn Jones as a original local persistent researcher. But I never could get behind the storm drain, even after standing above it and looking up the street at the X's.  While a limited view/field of fire the shot would be upward and a potential miss would have less chance of hitting someone else.  But I could never wrap my head around it, the getaway, crawling or running stooped over a long way with a rifle.  There was a story years back about running through the sewer all the way to the Trinity river bottom to a light plane that barely touched down for a pickup.  Other stories of intricate underground tunnels of Dallas.  When Sherry Fiester's book Enemy of the Truth first came out I thought how do you get "back and to the left" from the South knoll.  Then I read the book.  She was quite scientific in proving it is a possibility.  Bless her memory for her effort.

Educate me more Ladies and Gentlemen.  But please go slow and use plain English.  Seems I'm getting older and slower by the day.    

Ron,

Listen to what Tom Wilson says about 4 feet farther down the road. A very important point. Imo

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T_L-ofjszZmZnMK9raiElwQfYA9YjZqx/view

His ultimate conclusion was the front entry-rear exit shot came from the street level sewer on Elm St.

[Chris Davidson]

56 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Now if I understand David right both the storm drain and the south knoll are legit possibilities.  When Sherry Fiester's book Enemy of the Truth first came out I thought how do you get "back and to the left" from the South knoll.  Then I read the book.  She was quite scientific in proving it is a possibility.  Bless her memory for her effort.Educate me more Ladies and Gentlemen.  But please go slow and use plain English.  Seems I'm getting older and slower by the day.    

If you extend my shooter location LOS through Sherry Fiester's graphic at z313, a face to face (lack of better term) crossfire occurs.

It's just farther South which creates a lateral angle to JFK instead of an overhead.

Remember, if the film is representative of his head height at z313 (3.27ft above ground-head faced downward), an over the top shot from the south knoll is impossible because of the convertible top support frame. The farther south (lateral) the better, until Jackie starts impeding the shooters LOS. 

 

[Chris Davidson]

Sitting straight up within the limo, JFK's head height was measured at 52.78 inches.

At z313, it was 39.24inches.

A difference of 13.54ft.

If the gentleman in the photo slumps down slightly, we begin to lose the top of his head.

[Chris Davidson]

11 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Ron,

Listen to what Tom Wilson says about 4 feet farther down the road. A very important point. Imo

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T_L-ofjszZmZnMK9raiElwQfYA9YjZqx/view

His ultimate conclusion was the front entry-rear exit shot came from the street level sewer on Elm St.

The location for Z313 among two different plats (Drommer 1978 HSCA and WC final May 1964).

The pedestals aligned. Pretty much straight lined to the Z313 street location.

In fact, the street plottings form a straight line also.

More modern technology? yes. Bad surveying? no.

In other words, two different locations meant to represent one spot.

Scale 1inch = 10ft

Distance between 4.5ft.

Tom Wilson says 4ft farther down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[David Andrews]

I'm of the belief and judgment that Zapruder shows that the throat wound bullet came through the front of the windshield, tearing past Connally's left side (so close that you can see him swat at the bullet as if it were a bee) before striking JFK.  If you look at Altgens 6, where JFK is already suffering the throat wound and beginning his slump - Jackie is at that point touching his left hand - you can see that his head is rapidly slipping out of view through the windshield, and may be further obscured by the limo top's crossbar as the limo descends the slope of Elm Street.  So I'm thinking that the frontal head shot at Z313 is fired from over the top of the windshield and crossbar, or at any rate not through the windshield.  Could the south knoll shooter have been crouching for the first shot, and standing for the second?  Are the two shots from different shooters?

Edited January 26, 2018 by David Andrews

[David Josephs]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 8:08 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Boy does this get deep.  Chris, you say 2 shot's 1/3 of a second apart.  I read elsewhere 2-3-4 or more years ago about two shot's hitting JFK in the head simultaneously or a "split" second apart, and thought no way.  But it's not impossible two could have been planned as insurance that at least one would surely hit.  If I remember right what I read about though assumed one from the back first (Dal-Tex?) then one from the grassy knoll.

Now if I understand David right both the storm drain and the south knoll are legit possibilities.  I really respect Penn Jones as a original local persistent researcher. But I never could get behind the storm drain, even after standing above it and looking up the street at the X's.  While a limited view/field of fire the shot would be upward and a potential miss would have less chance of hitting someone else.  But I could never wrap my head around it, the getaway, crawling or running stooped over a long way with a rifle.  There was a story years back about running through the sewer all the way to the Trinity river bottom to a light plane that barely touched down for a pickup.  Other stories of intricate underground tunnels of Dallas.  When Sherry Fiester's book Enemy of the Truth first came out I thought how do you get "back and to the left" from the South knoll.  Then I read the book.  She was quite scientific in proving it is a possibility.  Bless her memory for her effort.

Educate me more Ladies and Gentlemen.  But please go slow and use plain English.  Seems I'm getting older and slower by the day.    

Back and to the left from the south knoll....

 

With the limo in position JFK is looking almost due south

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 8:38 AM, David Andrews said:

I'm of the belief and judgment that Zapruder shows that the throat wound came through the front of the windshield

Agreed David... and here's some supporting imagery

The hole in the limo window is, IMHO, the shot to the throat of very small caliber... 

Possible the windshield deflected the shot more downward than intended?  Below is an analysis of Tosh's shooter location with images...

Seems to me a much easier shot and escape...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by David Josephs

[Cory Santos]

12 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Sitting straight up within the limo, JFK's head height was measured at 52.78 inches.

At z313, it was 39.24inches.

A difference of 13.54ft.

If the gentleman in the photo slumps down slightly, we begin to lose the top of his head.

I like this as it actually shows what the shooter could be looking at.  The problem is this, a bullet flies by the driver and he gives no reaction.  No glass shatter?  It is very interesting.  I have always thought the zapruder film clearly shows the limo coming to a near stop with the occupants lurching forward, then, when Hill climbs on the limo, it clearly speeds up.  The stop could have been a reaction but the stop occurs later.

Thoughts?

[David Andrews]

3 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

I like this as it actually shows what the shooter could be looking at.  The problem is this, a bullet flies by the driver and he gives no reaction.  No glass shatter?  It is very interesting.  I have always thought the zapruder film clearly shows the limo coming to a near stop with the occupants lurching forward, then, when Hill climbs on the limo, it clearly speeds up.  The stop could have been a reaction but the stop occurs later.

Thoughts?

At about Z225, where Kennedy and Connally both react to the bullet through the windshield (Kennedy wounded), Kellerman is looking off to the crowd on the right side of the limo, not at the windshield..  Altgens 6 shows kellerman looking slightly to center left, as he's in mid-turn to look over his left shoulder at Kennedy.  I would like to think Kellerman saw the windshield hole at the moment Altgens 6 captured him, but that may be wishful thinking.  We can't really see Greer until the limo is nearer to Zapruder.

Edited January 26, 2018 by David Andrews

[Chris Davidson]

2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

The location for Z313 among two different plats (Drommer 1978 HSCA and WC final May 1964).

The pedestals aligned. Pretty much straight lined to the Z313 street location.

In fact, the street plottings form a straight line also.

More modern technology? yes. Bad surveying? no.

In other words, two different locations meant to represent one spot.

Scale 1inch = 10ft

Distance between 4.5ft.

Tom Wilson says 4ft farther down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The path switch accommodating the two shots. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EF7C1mbbwXwwWzHukcCWrMzngj9u_BEx/view?usp=sharing

[David Josephs]

15 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Sitting straight up within the limo, JFK's head height was measured at 52.78 inches.

At z313, it was 39.24inches.

A difference of 13.54ft.

If the gentleman in the photo slumps down slightly, we begin to lose the top of his head.

Chris...  regardless of the location of the limo, JFK's height remains the same.

We both know the 3.27' for the top of JFK's head is complete crap as he was always 52.78" above street level.
(Wouldn't it be some strange coincidence if the throat wound was 13.54" from the top of his head? but I think it's closer to 12.5"))

It's 13.54 inches

Let's also remember ROBINSON mentioning the pluggin of small holes in JFK's face during embalming...  the result of splintered glass following the bullet?

From this view, the shot hitting the throat appears more in line for this direction...  besides, why take a chance... the Grassy Knoll distance to JFK is absurdly close... you want to guarantee hitting the mark, that's from where it would come...

 

[Chris Davidson]

David,

My point was any slumping and a headshot is not possible from the overpass or the south knoll (previous photo position provided). More south I'm fine with.

Agreed, he never slumped 13.54 inches.

The 13.54 inch span is part of the 10 inch BS drop scenario.

3.54 vertical inches converted into Elm St slope = 3.54"/12" = .295 x 18.3ft = 5.4ft =(13.44mph plotted limo speed z161-z166) - .9ft (BS limo advanced) for z161-z166 = 4.5ft = two postings back. 

[Micah Mileto]

Isn't a frontal head shot unlikely if the Carcano fragments are real? They have human skin and muscle fiber on them. Seems pretty real, how do you fake that?

[Rick McTague]

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uLHG9QTJ7U8" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This recent discussion with Alan Dale and Stuart Wexler covers this topic and points to an area of the south knoll for the location of a shooter (for the throat shot and fatal head shot).  I would place the shooter on the bridge, nearer the south knoll.  Cover, a built-in rest for the rifle with the concrete rail, and easy / fast egress into the parking lot behind the south knoll.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Rick McTague