“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

Oops... that was a typo.  I mean to ask "... why is it that attorney Joseph Ball specifically asked both Shelley and Lovelady about seeing Vickie Adams?"  In other words, if the Shelly and Lovelady sighting was added later to Vickie Adams' testimony, what prompted Ball to ask the men if they saw her on the first floor.  And for that matter, what prompted Lovelady to say, out of the blue, "I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie" in answer to the question, "Who did you see on the first floor?"

 

Jim,

There are a number of possible explanations for this and I can only speculate on it.

First, certainly an attorney will read a witness's affidavits before taking testimony from him/her. He will form a list of questions based on what the person has said, as well as what is already known or alleged regarding that person's story.

So Mr. Ball would have read Vickie Adam's DPD affidavit before he questioned her. He would have seen that she had said that she saw Lovelady and Shelley upon exiting the stairway.

I, Bart, Barry Ernest, and many others believe that when Vickie testified for Mr. Ball, she said that she saw only one person, a black guy. If so, Mr. Ball certainly would have been taken by surprised.

So when Mr. Ball questioned Lovelady and Shelley later that day, he would have asked them if they  had seen Vickie. He probably would have asked that even if she had said that she saw them.

As for why Lovelady blurted out Vickie Adams' name before Mr. Ball even mentioned her name, that is because Lovelady -- just like Vickie and Shelley -- had been coached to say that the three encountered each other when Vickie exited the steps. Lovelady felt it was wrong for him to falsely testify about a fellow employee, and so he nervously jumped at the chance to make it clear that he wasn't so sure Vickie was where he was supposed to say she was. Shelley played it more smoothly in denying he saw Vickie there at that time.

 

[John Butler]

This photo can't be the north wall.  The north wall has only 3 windows widely spaced over 100 feet per floor.  The TSBD is a square building with 100 feet per side.  Here in this photo we see 3 windows in less than half, looks to be about 30-40 feet, the distance across the TSBD.  I don't know which directions the floor boards, joists, and I-beams run but, they need to be rechecked.  This shows the southeast corner of the TSBD on the 6th floor. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by John Butler

[Andrej Stancak]

John: 

I am not sure, Tony may be right. It can be the east-north corner of the building we view in which case the critical second east window is not seen in this picture.

 

[Tony Krome]

Old picture of the building circa 1914 before it became TSBD

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

The TSBD was remodeled in 1981-1986.  The appearance of the east face changed from the 1960s appearance to the post-1981-86 appearance after the remodeling.

Tony is correct for the post-1981 appearance.  But, not for an earlier appearance.  I hope these images are clear enough to see the differences pre and post modeling. 

Andrej,

Someone needs to find the plans for the elevator shaft.  I wouldn't know where to look.  That would solve a lot of problems with its appearance and function.

The shaft is shown on the 5th floor plans and no structures for a venting system shown on the 6th floor plans.  There is just the one photo, where you don't see anything, to suggest a vent to the outside via the window.  As I said earlier it could be a metallic cart for moving boxes.  It doesn't appear so to me.  But, I occasionally have to dine on crow due to my over enthusiasm and rushed responses.

The pre-1981 version of the TSBD had only 5 arched windows on the southern face.  The post 1981-86 version has 10 arched windows as shown in the right hand photo.  5 on the south face and now 5 on the east face.  Any photo showing arched windows rather than rectangular is pre-1981.  So, the interior photo that I posted earlier has to be pre-1981 and as advertised by the 6th floor museum showing the 6th floor in the 1960s. 

The above first two photos show the West side of the building Not the East side.

[John Butler]

Cool.  How do you explain this:

1901 building has arched windows on the east face.  1960s building doesn't.  I guess the original building was restored in 1981.

[Ray Mitcham]

How do you explain the buildings behind?

 

[John Butler]

Go away Ray.  I have no intention to responding to your bullying tactics other than this one message.,

Can't you see the Dal-Tex across the street.  Open you eyes and look at something in reality for a change rather than the fantasies in your head.  And, I really don't want to hear how you are out just to correct mistakes.  Before you depart on such an endeavor clean your own house.

[Ray Mitcham]

"I have no intention to [sic] responding to your bullying tactics other than this one message.,"

Not bullying, John. Just pointing out yet another cock up by you.

The Daltex is opposite the East side of the TSBD. So the first two photos can't be showing the East side of the TSBD.

 

The first photo shows the West side of the TSBD in sunlight, as does the second.  North Side in shadow.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[Jim Hargrove]

53 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I, Bart, Barry Ernest, and many others believe that when Vickie testified for Mr. Ball, she said that she saw only one person, a black guy. If so, Mr. Ball certainly would have been taken by surprised.

SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Again, it seems to me that the fact Baker didn’t challenge these two white men or at least get ID’s from them suggests someone (who else but Truly?) must have vouched for them.

Baker would not be expected to recognize TSBD employees.  But Truly certainly should have, and yet the WC did not ask Truly to identify these two white men.  Why not?

  

[Jim Hargrove]

To John Butler....

Thanks for your continuing help on this question.  John A. sent me the following image earlier this afternoon and said, "This may be the answer...."

[Andrej Stancak]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Again, it seems to me that the fact Baker didn’t challenge these two white men or at least get ID’s from them suggests someone (who else but Truly?) must have vouched for them.

Baker would not be expected to recognize TSBD employees.  But Truly certainly should have, and yet the WC did not ask Truly to identify these two white men.  Why no

Jim:

the Warren Commission does contain inaccuracies such as the alleged sighting of two white men on the first floor by Officer Baker. An example: Billy Lovelady told the Warren Commission he had stood on the top landing (when photographed by Altgens). In reality, he stood one step below the top landing. Lovelady may not have remembered well, it could be an innocent mistake.

With Baker's testimony, the fact that the Commission did not ask who these two white men were only meant that these were actually two Afro-American gentlemen, Troy West and Eddie Piper. This is the reason why it was not followed up. How it got changed to white men, I do not know. It could have been an honest error or it was an attempt to support the possibility of Vicki Adams seeing Shelley and Lovelady which she denied. Neither Sandra Styles nor Vicki Adams ever approved your version of events in which Shelley and Lovelady were in the back of the first floor before Baker and Truly. 

You seem to arbitrarily select which parts of Warren Commission testimonies you believe and which not. So, according to John and yourself, Baker' white men and Vicki Adams' Shelley and Lovelady in the back of the first floor within a minute were true events. However, since Shelley' and Lovelady's Warren Commission testimonies do not fit your theory, you choose not to believe them and this is how you make your theory possible. 

While it continues to boggle my mind that you question Vicki Adams's story as described in Barry Ernest's book, we also have an interview with Buell Frazier.

Below is a transcript from the "Living History with Buell Wesley Frazier" interview recorded by the Sixth Floor Museum and posted on August 27, 2013. Mr. Fagin led the interview. The interview can be found on YouTube.com by typing the title of the video broadcast. Frazier confirms Shelley's and Lovelady's statements for the Warren Commission.

The relevant section of the interview starts at 33 min 50 s:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?

Mr. Frazier: (pause) I did. This was all... I do not know how many minutes later … (noisy recording), but the lady I stand next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady came by, a woman came by, she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President".

Of course, there is also Darnell film showing a person wearing a tie and suit (the only person in the doorway wearing a suit and a tie was Shelley), being of Shelley's body height and standing at the location he occupied in Wiegman and Altgens, and himself saying that he did not do anything for about a minute (= he stood where he stood earlier), however, since the picture is blurry, he could not stand there, could he? 

 

[Ray Mitcham]

19 hours ago, John Butler said:

This photo can't be the north wall.  The north wall has only 3 windows widely spaced over 100 feet per floor.  The TSBD is a square building with 100 feet per side.  Here in this photo we see 3 windows in less than half, looks to be about 30-40 feet, the distance across the TSBD.  I don't know which directions the floor boards, joists, and I-beams run but, they need to be rechecked.  This shows the southeast corner of the TSBD on the 6th floor. 

Quote by John Butler "The north wall has only 3 windows widely spaced over 100 feet per floor." No. The North side of the TSBD has 5 windows across its width. 

The blue line shown as "The Elevators" on Jim's photo covers too much area for the elevators. The horizontal blue line is just past the second row of columns, which is way too far from the North wall, as the floor plan of the first floor shows the elevators coming out only level with the first row of columns.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?

Mr. Frazier: (pause) I did. This was all... I do not know how many minutes later … (noisy recording), but the lady I stand next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady came by, a woman came by, she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President".

To Andrej….

Thank you for continuing this detailed discussion.  

Many researchers believe Frazier was a malleable witness.  The 19-year-old’s story of the “murder weapon” package was directly contradicted by Jack Dougherty. Researchers have poked enormous holes into Linnie Mae’s alleged corroboration.  Garland Slack, one of the many witnesses who saw an Oswald look-alike at the Sports Drome firing range said “a man named Frazier” drove “Oswald” there.  Frazier was friends with Ruby-associate John Crawford.   His TSBD supervisor was Bill Shelley.  His story of seeing Shelley and Lovelady moving toward the Triple Underpass fit nicely with the clear attempt by the WC to make the Shelley/Lovelady/Adams encounter appear later than it actually occurred, thus giving LHO time to run down the stairs from the sixth floor.

Your descriptions of the fuzzy images in various films and pictures may be accurate, but the timings we are considering are in seconds, not minutes.  Again, if Shelley and Lovelady were indeed involved in controlling power to the TSBD elevators and some of the building circuits (someone had to--who else was better qualified?)  they had every reason to be conspicuously present somewhere else as often as possibile.

The most serious evidence you have is the latter-day statements of Victoria Adams to Barry Ernest, and John A. and I both take them seriously.  Here statement that she did not see Shelley or Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs is presented clearly in John’s write-up on my website.    The last paragraph reads as follows:

Adams died on November 15, 2007 (age 66) of cancer, so now it is up to JFK researchers to determine the truth. Was Adams' W.C. testimony accurately recorded and published in the W.C. volumes? Did she see Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor one minute after the shooting? Or did Adams, after 40 years of threats and intimidation, finally just give up and say what the government wanted her to say? The decision is yours.

I should have a few more minutes later today and to give you an example of why, in my opinion, you cannot base an entire theory of the case, or an important aspect of the case, on a statement by a witness made thirty or forty years after the fact.  I'm enjoying our discussion, even if no one else cares.

[Andrej Stancak]

All right, I leave it here. Thanks for bringing on this interesting topic.

I was trying to find out if there is any chance to get to the architectonic plans of the building at the time of two reconstructions (1961 and 1981), however, this would require an effort which I cannot invest at the momenent. I would like to know the details of the lift construction and how any lift-related objects the 5th and 6th floor looked like. In some countries, every building undergoing a major reconstruction has to have the plans approved by he city's building commission and the  building plans are archived with the project applications. I would hope that the City of Dallas would have the architectonical plans of TSBD in their archives. Even the Sixth Floor Museum could have such plans.