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Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties


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3 minutes ago, Robert Wheeler said:

The JFK Assassination Forum is no place to peddle conspiracy theories Paul! /s

I'm waiting to hear a conspiracy theory for why Reeve Whitson would arrange the murder of Sharon Tate.

Because.  Reasons.  Skorzeny...??

That's not good enough.

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36 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

For circumstances showing pre=planning of the attack, see William Weston's post #16 at DPF's Manson thread:

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16991-Zodiac-Killer-was-a-Member-of-the-International-White-Guard&p=125978#post125978

 

Okay.

<quote on>

Thanks for notifying me of the other thread. I have been out of town for the last few weeks. I see that I have some catching up to do.

As for [dog-keeper William] Garretson, I cannot see how he could be an innocent bystander. Most researchers, including me, cannot believe he failed to hear what was going on outside.

<quote off>

So William Garretson was an accessory to murder because researchers cannot believe he was anything else?

That's evidence?

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Garretson was in charge of the dogs, including a Weimariner noted for his viciousness as an attack dog. That the dog was not out prowling around must be due to the fact that Garretson had something to do with keeping him contained. Garretson had been the dogkeeper since March 1969, prior to Manson's visit to the Cielo house on March 23.

<quote off>

Weren't the dogs discovered by the police in a closet in the main house?

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Garretson mentioned on his polygraph test on August 10 a "Patty Montgomery" who stayed with him for a while at the guest house. “Patty Montgomery” was an alias for Patricia Krenwinkel. The dogs probably knew her and got used to her presence. And of course, Garretson would have gotten to know the Manson Family. Patricia was probably his controller.

<quote off>

If Krenwinkle knew the dogs that would explain why they didn't bark, wouldn't it?

I'd love to see the evidence Patricia Krenwinkle was an intel operative. 

Ya know, for so many f-cked up kids there sure were a lot of intel agents...

<quote on, emphasis in the original>

I saw on the other thread that Joseph McBride posted a transcript of Mae Brussell’s October 13, 1971 show on Manson. I fully agree with her when she said “...the murder of Sharon Tate and the other persons in her home was a political massacre. ... It had to be planned well in advance of when it happened.

<quote off>

Mae came to that conclusion prior to investigation.  Mae Brusell was a great researcher but that didn't make her immune to confirmation bias.

<quote on>

When Manson visited Altobelli at Cielo Drive four months before the murders, he noticed the aggressiveness of the Weimariner.   For his Helter Skelter plan to succeed, he must have had some assurance that the dogs would not be a problem. Thus the dogkeeper had to be in on the plot.

<quote off>

Only if one assumes "the Helter Skelter" scenario was legit and not some BS Susan Atkins exaggerated in order to save her skin.

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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4 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I read the book and I can't believe the CIA-did-it angle.

How does "not having the highest ethical standards" correlate to arranging the murder of a pregnant friend who happened to be the daughter of a military intelligence officer?

I'm waiting for a shred of evidence beyond the assumption that proximity equals causation.

If you read "the" book as in one I guess that would be the one by the ex con who believes what Manson told him.  You've not taken Joseph McBride's suggestion about reading Chaos, the subject of this thread either I'd guess.  Has anybody but you actually said the words the CIA did it?  Whitson is suspicious because he was affiliated with Manson around the time of the murders, he participated in the coercion of a witness, he claimed to others he was CIA, he claimed Otto Skorzeny as a close friend as well as for his possible actions at the time.  It would be nice to know more about him period.

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32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

If you read "the" book as in one I guess that would be the one by the ex con who believes what Manson told him. 

A far more believable account than that offered by others.  it's consistent with my sense of the counter-culture milieu, and consistent with the conversations I had with my late friend Michael Vosse, an A&M publicist who was tight with Terry Melcher and acquainted with Bobby Beausoleil.

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

You've not taken Joseph McBride's suggestion about reading Chaos, the subject of this thread either I'd guess. 

To the best of my knowledge McBride hasn't read Manson In His Own Words, nor have you.

Tell me Ron, how much experience did you have with the freak culture of the late 60's?

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Has anybody but you actually said the words the CIA did it? 

We're going to split hairs?  Plenty of folks have claimed it was a military intel operation.

Reeve Whitson was CIA, was he not?

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Whitson is suspicious because he was affiliated with Manson around the time of the murders, he participated in the coercion of a witness, he claimed to others he was CIA, he claimed Otto Skorzeny as a close friend as well as for his possible actions at the time.  It would be nice to know more about him period.

He was also hired by Col Paul Tate to investigate the crime, and worked with Bugliosi.

So we're supposed to believe that Whitson arranged the murder of Sharon Tate et al, then was hired to investigate the murders he facilitated without any apparent motive?

I'm waiting for a cogent conspiracy theory as to why.

If Chaos provides such a cogent theory -- I'm all ears.

This is from Chaos, isn't it:  “My theory that Manson and West were linked was tenuous, circumstantial, lying solely in the fact that they’d walked the corridors of the same clinic.”  

Jolly West was working on electro-shock experiments at UCLA in 1969.  The whole LSD bit was passe.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

A far more believable account than that offered by others.  it's consistent with my sense of the counter-culture milieu, and consistent with the conversations I had with my late friend Michael Vosse, an A&M publicist who was tight with Terry Melcher and acquainted with Bobby Beausoleil.

To the best of my knowledge McBride hasn't read Manson In His Own Words, nor have you.

Tell me Ron, how much experience did you have with the freak culture of the late 60's?

We're going to split hairs?  Plenty of folks have claimed it was a military intel operation.

Reeve Whitson was CIA, was he not?

He was also hired by Col Paul Tate to investigate the crime, and worked with Bugliosi.

So we're supposed to believe that Whitson arranged the murder of Sharon Tate et al, then was hired to investigate the murders he facilitated without any apparent motive?

I'm waiting for a cogent conspiracy theory as to why.

If Chaos provides such a cogent theory -- I'm all ears.

This is from Chaos, isn't it:  “My theory that Manson and West were linked was tenuous, circumstantial, lying solely in the fact that they’d walked the corridors of the same clinic.”  

Jolly West was working on electro-shock experiments at UCLA in 1969.  The whole LSD bit was passe.

 

 

LSD was not passe by 1969.  Your still the only one saying the CIA did it.  I'm saying Whitson should be looked into further, if possible.  Could he have Influenced Manson to do he something he didn't know the ultimate consequences of?  Was he involved further?  I don't know, but lets keep looking.

Since you ask.  I turned 13 in 1969.  I remember the hippies hitch hiking past our convenience store in Grapevine Tx to the Lewisville Pop Festival a few weeks after I'd heard about Woodstock.  I thought it was cool.  Didn't see my first concert until 1973 (Joe Cocker).

https://www.cityoflewisville.com/about-us/our-history/timeline/1969-texas-international-pop-festival

It's not the Woodstock version but still pretty good for a person with a "problem".  Today 9 minutes is too long for most.  Again, full screen. full volume for full effect.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=joe+cocker+with+a+little+help+from+my+friends&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=293fecd4960141f08d0c2fcc406e2057&sp=1&filters=ufn%3A"joe+cocker+with+a+little+help+from+my+friends"+sid%3A"45a5c878-7f91-5518-56a0-ab1407ff3527"&qs=MB&pq=joe+cocker+i+get+by+with+a+little+help&sc=4-38&cvid=293fecd4960141f08d0c2fcc406e2057

Note Leon Russell in the background.

 

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7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

LSD was not passe by 1969.  Your still the only one saying the CIA did it.  I'm saying Whitson should be looked into further, if possible.  Could he have Influenced Manson to do he something he didn't know the ultimate consequences of?  Was he involved further?  I don't know, but lets keep looking.

Since you ask.  I turned 13 in 1969.  I remember the hippies hitch hiking past our convenience store in Grapevine Tx to the Lewisville Pop Festival a few weeks after I'd heard about Woodstock.  I thought it was cool.  Didn't see my first concert until 1973 (Joe Cocker).

https://www.cityoflewisville.com/about-us/our-history/timeline/1969-texas-international-pop-festival

It's not the Woodstock version but still pretty good for a person with a "problem".  Today 9 minutes is too long for most.  Again, full screen. full volume for full effect.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=joe+cocker+with+a+little+help+from+my+friends&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=293fecd4960141f08d0c2fcc406e2057&sp=1&filters=ufn%3A"joe+cocker+with+a+little+help+from+my+friends"+sid%3A"45a5c878-7f91-5518-56a0-ab1407ff3527"&qs=MB&pq=joe+cocker+i+get+by+with+a+little+help&sc=4-38&cvid=293fecd4960141f08d0c2fcc406e2057

Note Leon Russell in the background.

 

I also found this copy of a  May 1970 news release to be disconcerting. If I am reading this paragraph correctly it seems to be saying future Los Angeles District Attorney Ira Reiner (who has maintained long term ties as the lawyer for Van Houten) is a friend of Charles Manson. Is my reading comprehension just shot or is this what the article really states?

QUOTE:

First, Miss Van Houten dismissed her court-appointed lawyer and selected Ira Reiner, a friend of Manson’s. Then Miss Krenwinkel suddenly stopped fighting extradition from Alabama and agreed to return to Los Angeles to face trial.

https://www.cielodrive.com/archive/accused-slayer-chooses-inexperienced-attorney/

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16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

LSD was not passe by 1969.

For the purpose of CIA/military behavior modification experimentation LSD was dead by 1969.

It didn't work.  Jolly West had moved on to electro-shock techniques.

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

  Your still the only one saying the CIA did it.

No, I'm pooh-poohing the notion that CIA/military intel did it.

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

  I'm saying Whitson should be looked into further, if possible

I just refuse to buy into the notion that the proximity of a CIA/mil;itary intel operative to an event automatically means the CIA/military intel caused the event.

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Could he have Influenced Manson to do he something he didn't know the ultimate consequences of? 

What's the evidence Whitson knew Manson?

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Was he involved further?  I don't know, but lets keep looking.

I'm looking forward to whatever you may find.

 

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9 hours ago, Jim Harwood said:

Cliff, speaking of Manson and the military how about that fella Colonel Michael Aquino (sp?) he is an officer but has no problem identifying himself as a practicing satanist.

I think LaVeyan satanism is a goof on the Catholic Church.  If you don't get the joke the joke's on you.

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9 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I think LaVeyan satanism is a goof on the Catholic Church.  If you don't get the joke the joke's on you.

I guess the jokes on me. Wasn't one of the so called Manson girls (Atkins) a dancer in LaVey's satanic plays/shows? I think that's true. Then there is the Process Church an off shoot of Scientology with Robert Moore and his wife (????) Mclean and they were  deeply involved with Manson. 

I don't want to hijack this thread but I was amused years later when the Simpson trial got 24 hour a day coverage. Many of the Simpson detractors and law enforcement had been connected either to the Manson case and/or Scientology.

Marsha Clark was married to a high ranking Scientologist, and the man that performed the ceremony Bruce Roman ended up shooting Clark's first husband Gabby Horowitz (a backgammon cheat and also taught all the Hollywood elder stars how to play) in the head. Roman was arrested and hired what would be one of Simpson's lead attorney's Bob Shapiro and wa acquitted. 

Bugliosi was a rabid "Simpson is guilty" proponent and of course he prosecuted Manson and also allowed much of the truth behind the Tate murders to remain hidden. 

Ira Reiner another media mouth piece and another former Los Angeles  DA was a friend of Manson's and long time counsel for Leslie Van Houten

Greta Van Sustren(spelling?) who became a TV star as a result of her Simpson trial coverage along with her husband are also both high ranking Scientologists. 

OJ Simpson also was a member of the Church of Scientology

Charles Groden the host of a low rated talk show on MSNBC cable got on the Simpson is guilty bandwagon early on and it made his show. Charles  Groden played the Doctor in the Satanic Thriller by Robert Altman (the Cotton Club Murders 1983) and Roman Polansky (Sharon Tate's husband) Rosemary's Baby. 

One of the detectives in the Simpson case Phil VanAtter (spelling) arrested Polansky in 1977 for sexual crimes with underage girls. It was said they became friendly over time.

But many connections to the Manson case via the prosecution and media  as well as the Church of Scientology with the OJ Simpson double homicide case some 25 years later.

 

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Reddit Conspiracy is having fun with Matt Groenings supposed Deep state affiliations since he was apparently partook of the offerings on Epstein’s jet. 

In any event this thread and Bart’s friend Milhouse is the only time I’ve seen the name Van Houten. 

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Charles  Groden played the Doctor in the Satanic Thriller by Robert Altman (the Cotton Club Murders 1983)

What kind of Bizarro World filmography is this?

  • Charles Grodin, early in his career, had a small part as a doctor who disbelieves Rosemary's Satanic cult story in Rosemary's Baby.
  • Robert Altman never directed a movie called The Cotton Club Murders (1983).
  • Francis Ford Coppola directed The Cotton Club, released 1984.  Drug dealing and financial chicanery surrounding the making led to the incident below.
  • The famous Cotton Club Murder, singular, of producer Roy Radin, took place in 1983.  It has never been the subject of a feature film, only TV documentaries.
Edited by David Andrews
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2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Charles  Groden played the Doctor in the Satanic Thriller by Robert Altman (the Cotton Club Murders 1983)

What kind of Bizarro World filmography is this?

  • Charles Grodin, early in his career, had a small part as a doctor who disbelieves Rosemary's Satanic cult story in Rosemary's Baby.
  • Robert Altman never directed a movie called The Cotton Club Murders (1983).
  • Francis Ford Coppola directed The Cotton Club, released 1984.  Drug dealing and financial chicanery surrounding the making led to the incident below.
  • The famous Cotton Club Murder, singular, of producer Roy Radin, took place in 1983.  It has never been the subject of a feature film, only TV documentaries.

I did make an error  for which I apologize but I was doing it from memory and used the wrong Hollywood satanist (they all look alike to me) ---it was Robert Evans not  Robert Altman (you couldn't figure that out or ask me? ) otherwise where is the bizarro in the filmography, the "size" of Grodin's role in Rosemary's Baby?  Your'e actually confirming what I wrote and why you think it's in error simply because you downplay Grodin's role in the movie (which is irrelevant) it does checks out as accurate does it not?  You guys make me laugh. So tell me David where is my great error where you can use the phrase Bizarro World. It's  you that's living comfortably in Bizarro World  whistling past the grave yard my cowardly conspiracy buff. 

Hollywood producer Robert Evans was implicated in the Radin murder and he hired OJ Simpson lead attorney Bob Shapiro to represent him and keep him out of the courts. Evans is also best friends to Henry Kissinger. 

 

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