Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties

[Ron Bulman]

4 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I read the book and I can't believe the CIA-did-it angle.

How does "not having the highest ethical standards" correlate to arranging the murder of a pregnant friend who happened to be the daughter of a military intelligence officer?

I'm waiting for a shred of evidence beyond the assumption that proximity equals causation.

If you read "the" book as in one I guess that would be the one by the ex con who believes what Manson told him.  You've not taken Joseph McBride's suggestion about reading Chaos, the subject of this thread either I'd guess.  Has anybody but you actually said the words the CIA did it?  Whitson is suspicious because he was affiliated with Manson around the time of the murders, he participated in the coercion of a witness, he claimed to others he was CIA, he claimed Otto Skorzeny as a close friend as well as for his possible actions at the time.  It would be nice to know more about him period.

[Cliff Varnell]

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

If you read "the" book as in one I guess that would be the one by the ex con who believes what Manson told him. 

A far more believable account than that offered by others.  it's consistent with my sense of the counter-culture milieu, and consistent with the conversations I had with my late friend Michael Vosse, an A&M publicist who was tight with Terry Melcher and acquainted with Bobby Beausoleil.

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

You've not taken Joseph McBride's suggestion about reading Chaos, the subject of this thread either I'd guess. 

To the best of my knowledge McBride hasn't read Manson In His Own Words, nor have you.

Tell me Ron, how much experience did you have with the freak culture of the late 60's?

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Has anybody but you actually said the words the CIA did it? 

We're going to split hairs?  Plenty of folks have claimed it was a military intel operation.

Reeve Whitson was CIA, was he not?

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Whitson is suspicious because he was affiliated with Manson around the time of the murders, he participated in the coercion of a witness, he claimed to others he was CIA, he claimed Otto Skorzeny as a close friend as well as for his possible actions at the time.  It would be nice to know more about him period.

He was also hired by Col Paul Tate to investigate the crime, and worked with Bugliosi.

So we're supposed to believe that Whitson arranged the murder of Sharon Tate et al, then was hired to investigate the murders he facilitated without any apparent motive?

I'm waiting for a cogent conspiracy theory as to why.

If Chaos provides such a cogent theory -- I'm all ears.

This is from Chaos, isn't it:  “My theory that Manson and West were linked was tenuous, circumstantial, lying solely in the fact that they’d walked the corridors of the same clinic.”  

Jolly West was working on electro-shock experiments at UCLA in 1969.  The whole LSD bit was passe.

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

20 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

A far more believable account than that offered by others.  it's consistent with my sense of the counter-culture milieu, and consistent with the conversations I had with my late friend Michael Vosse, an A&M publicist who was tight with Terry Melcher and acquainted with Bobby Beausoleil.

To the best of my knowledge McBride hasn't read Manson In His Own Words, nor have you.

Tell me Ron, how much experience did you have with the freak culture of the late 60's?

We're going to split hairs?  Plenty of folks have claimed it was a military intel operation.

Reeve Whitson was CIA, was he not?

He was also hired by Col Paul Tate to investigate the crime, and worked with Bugliosi.

So we're supposed to believe that Whitson arranged the murder of Sharon Tate et al, then was hired to investigate the murders he facilitated without any apparent motive?

I'm waiting for a cogent conspiracy theory as to why.

If Chaos provides such a cogent theory -- I'm all ears.

This is from Chaos, isn't it:  “My theory that Manson and West were linked was tenuous, circumstantial, lying solely in the fact that they’d walked the corridors of the same clinic.”  

Jolly West was working on electro-shock experiments at UCLA in 1969.  The whole LSD bit was passe.

 

 

LSD was not passe by 1969.  Your still the only one saying the CIA did it.  I'm saying Whitson should be looked into further, if possible.  Could he have Influenced Manson to do he something he didn't know the ultimate consequences of?  Was he involved further?  I don't know, but lets keep looking.

Since you ask.  I turned 13 in 1969.  I remember the hippies hitch hiking past our convenience store in Grapevine Tx to the Lewisville Pop Festival a few weeks after I'd heard about Woodstock.  I thought it was cool.  Didn't see my first concert until 1973 (Joe Cocker).

https://www.cityoflewisville.com/about-us/our-history/timeline/1969-texas-international-pop-festival

It's not the Woodstock version but still pretty good for a person with a "problem".  Today 9 minutes is too long for most.  Again, full screen. full volume for full effect.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=joe+cocker+with+a+little+help+from+my+friends&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=293fecd4960141f08d0c2fcc406e2057&sp=1&filters=ufn%3A"joe+cocker+with+a+little+help+from+my+friends"+sid%3A"45a5c878-7f91-5518-56a0-ab1407ff3527"&qs=MB&pq=joe+cocker+i+get+by+with+a+little+help&sc=4-38&cvid=293fecd4960141f08d0c2fcc406e2057

Note Leon Russell in the background.

 

[Jim Harwood]

Cliff, speaking of Manson and the military how about that fella Colonel Michael Aquino (sp?) he is an officer but has no problem identifying himself as a practicing satanist.

[Jim Harwood]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

LSD was not passe by 1969.  Your still the only one saying the CIA did it.  I'm saying Whitson should be looked into further, if possible.  Could he have Influenced Manson to do he something he didn't know the ultimate consequences of?  Was he involved further?  I don't know, but lets keep looking.

Since you ask.  I turned 13 in 1969.  I remember the hippies hitch hiking past our convenience store in Grapevine Tx to the Lewisville Pop Festival a few weeks after I'd heard about Woodstock.  I thought it was cool.  Didn't see my first concert until 1973 (Joe Cocker).

https://www.cityoflewisville.com/about-us/our-history/timeline/1969-texas-international-pop-festival

It's not the Woodstock version but still pretty good for a person with a "problem".  Today 9 minutes is too long for most.  Again, full screen. full volume for full effect.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=joe+cocker+with+a+little+help+from+my+friends&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=293fecd4960141f08d0c2fcc406e2057&sp=1&filters=ufn%3A"joe+cocker+with+a+little+help+from+my+friends"+sid%3A"45a5c878-7f91-5518-56a0-ab1407ff3527"&qs=MB&pq=joe+cocker+i+get+by+with+a+little+help&sc=4-38&cvid=293fecd4960141f08d0c2fcc406e2057

Note Leon Russell in the background.

 

I also found this copy of a  May 1970 news release to be disconcerting. If I am reading this paragraph correctly it seems to be saying future Los Angeles District Attorney Ira Reiner (who has maintained long term ties as the lawyer for Van Houten) is a friend of Charles Manson. Is my reading comprehension just shot or is this what the article really states?

QUOTE:

First, Miss Van Houten dismissed her court-appointed lawyer and selected Ira Reiner, a friend of Manson’s. Then Miss Krenwinkel suddenly stopped fighting extradition from Alabama and agreed to return to Los Angeles to face trial.

https://www.cielodrive.com/archive/accused-slayer-chooses-inexperienced-attorney/

[Cliff Varnell]

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

LSD was not passe by 1969.

For the purpose of CIA/military behavior modification experimentation LSD was dead by 1969.

It didn't work.  Jolly West had moved on to electro-shock techniques.

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

  Your still the only one saying the CIA did it.

No, I'm pooh-poohing the notion that CIA/military intel did it.

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

  I'm saying Whitson should be looked into further, if possible

I just refuse to buy into the notion that the proximity of a CIA/mil;itary intel operative to an event automatically means the CIA/military intel caused the event.

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Could he have Influenced Manson to do he something he didn't know the ultimate consequences of? 

What's the evidence Whitson knew Manson?

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Was he involved further?  I don't know, but lets keep looking.

I'm looking forward to whatever you may find.

 

[Cliff Varnell]

9 hours ago, Jim Harwood said:

Cliff, speaking of Manson and the military how about that fella Colonel Michael Aquino (sp?) he is an officer but has no problem identifying himself as a practicing satanist.

I think LaVeyan satanism is a goof on the Catholic Church.  If you don't get the joke the joke's on you.

[Jim Harwood]

9 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I think LaVeyan satanism is a goof on the Catholic Church.  If you don't get the joke the joke's on you.

I guess the jokes on me. Wasn't one of the so called Manson girls (Atkins) a dancer in LaVey's satanic plays/shows? I think that's true. Then there is the Process Church an off shoot of Scientology with Robert Moore and his wife (????) Mclean and they were  deeply involved with Manson. 

I don't want to hijack this thread but I was amused years later when the Simpson trial got 24 hour a day coverage. Many of the Simpson detractors and law enforcement had been connected either to the Manson case and/or Scientology.

Marsha Clark was married to a high ranking Scientologist, and the man that performed the ceremony Bruce Roman ended up shooting Clark's first husband Gabby Horowitz (a backgammon cheat and also taught all the Hollywood elder stars how to play) in the head. Roman was arrested and hired what would be one of Simpson's lead attorney's Bob Shapiro and wa acquitted. 

Bugliosi was a rabid "Simpson is guilty" proponent and of course he prosecuted Manson and also allowed much of the truth behind the Tate murders to remain hidden. 

Ira Reiner another media mouth piece and another former Los Angeles  DA was a friend of Manson's and long time counsel for Leslie Van Houten

Greta Van Sustren(spelling?) who became a TV star as a result of her Simpson trial coverage along with her husband are also both high ranking Scientologists. 

OJ Simpson also was a member of the Church of Scientology

Charles Groden the host of a low rated talk show on MSNBC cable got on the Simpson is guilty bandwagon early on and it made his show. Charles  Groden played the Doctor in the Satanic Thriller by Robert Altman (the Cotton Club Murders 1983) and Roman Polansky (Sharon Tate's husband) Rosemary's Baby. 

One of the detectives in the Simpson case Phil VanAtter (spelling) arrested Polansky in 1977 for sexual crimes with underage girls. It was said they became friendly over time.

But many connections to the Manson case via the prosecution and media  as well as the Church of Scientology with the OJ Simpson double homicide case some 25 years later.

 

[David Andrews]

Charles  Groden played the Doctor in the Satanic Thriller by Robert Altman (the Cotton Club Murders 1983)

What kind of Bizarro World filmography is this?

• Charles Grodin, early in his career, had a small part as a doctor who disbelieves Rosemary's Satanic cult story in Rosemary's Baby.
• Robert Altman never directed a movie called The Cotton Club Murders (1983).
• Francis Ford Coppola directed The Cotton Club, released 1984.  Drug dealing and financial chicanery surrounding the making led to the incident below.
• The famous Cotton Club Murder, singular, of producer Roy Radin, took place in 1983.  It has never been the subject of a feature film, only TV documentaries.

Edited August 27, 2019 by David Andrews

[Jim Harwood]

2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Charles  Groden played the Doctor in the Satanic Thriller by Robert Altman (the Cotton Club Murders 1983)

What kind of Bizarro World filmography is this?

• Charles Grodin, early in his career, had a small part as a doctor who disbelieves Rosemary's Satanic cult story in Rosemary's Baby.
• Robert Altman never directed a movie called The Cotton Club Murders (1983).
• Francis Ford Coppola directed The Cotton Club, released 1984.  Drug dealing and financial chicanery surrounding the making led to the incident below.
• The famous Cotton Club Murder, singular, of producer Roy Radin, took place in 1983.  It has never been the subject of a feature film, only TV documentaries.

I did make an error  for which I apologize but I was doing it from memory and used the wrong Hollywood satanist (they all look alike to me) ---it was Robert Evans not  Robert Altman (you couldn't figure that out or ask me? ) otherwise where is the bizarro in the filmography, the "size" of Grodin's role in Rosemary's Baby?  Your'e actually confirming what I wrote and why you think it's in error simply because you downplay Grodin's role in the movie (which is irrelevant) it does checks out as accurate does it not?  You guys make me laugh. So tell me David where is my great error where you can use the phrase Bizarro World. It's  you that's living comfortably in Bizarro World  whistling past the grave yard my cowardly conspiracy buff. 

Hollywood producer Robert Evans was implicated in the Radin murder and he hired OJ Simpson lead attorney Bob Shapiro to represent him and keep him out of the courts. Evans is also best friends to Henry Kissinger. 

 

[David Andrews]

I stand corrected.

[Jim Harwood]

Thank you David.

 

Another fun Manson family fact known by few (or I should say not important) is the connection between Saturday Night Live show and cast members and the Manson family.

1. Chevy Chase aka Cornelius Crane Chase of the Vanderbilt family. His birth father would divorce Cornelius mother and marry into the Folger family, In 1969 Abigail Folger would be one of the murder victims of the Manson family. Later in 1976 Cornelius would marry the ex wife of record producer Terry Melcher who was supposed to have been interested in recording Charlie Manson. Ironically Chevy's first big hit with the youth audience watching SNL was the wicked prat falls he would perform at the start of the telecast portraying a clumsy President Gerald Ford who only a month earlier had been in the cross hairs of a .45 caliber gun held by Squeeky Fromme. 

2. The funnyman Phil Hartman was friends with Manson's #2 in command Squeeky Fromme.  

Before she was known as one of Charles Manson’s favorite cult members, Lynette “Squeaky” Fromme had minor renown as a child performer. Born in 1948 to a homemaker mother and aeronautical-engineer father, Lynette showed an early interest in dance. By the late 1950s, she had joined the Westchester Lariats, a popular Los Angeles-based touring group that performed on network television and at the White House.

She attended Orville Wright Junior High School, where she got A’s and B’s and took drama classes for about two years. It was there that she met a young Phil Hartman, who would become a close friend and go on to stardom on “Saturday Night Live.” She loved him.

Tragically Phil Hartman would be murdered in 1998 allegedly by his much younger wife. The story went that Hartman's wife Byrnn went to an ex boyfriends home and confessed she had shot her husband while he was sleeping. Phil's wife and ex boyfriend return to the Hartman home where now Phil's wife is left to get back into bed with the corpse of her husband and decides to shoot her self in the head . Left in the Hartman home is this ex boyfriend  a stranger that doesn't belong in the home who had been a Hollywood stuntman and worked films on the Spahn Ranch. 

As a side bar there were many people involved in the Manson story that originated from Minnesota. Bugliosi, the defense attorney Paul Fitzgerald (name?), Melcher's side kick Greg Jakobson (spelling?), Dean Morehouse and his daughter, Diane Lake and a dead man that died or was killed in London who's girlfriend had left him for a life with Charles Manson and the family. And if the Hartman murder is connected then you can add Phil's wife to the list of Minnesotan's as she was born in Thief River Falls MN. https://murderpedia.org/female.H/h/hartman-brynn.htm

 

3. Funnyman Al Franken - Franken also a Minnesotan via NYC attended the prestigious Blake School in Hopkins Minnesota. would work on Saturday Night Live as a writer and also in front of the camera. He would become a Senator from the state of Minnesota even though he hadn't lived their since 1975. In an interview after gaining the senate seat he  claimed the most influential person in his life was a Rabbi who ran the largest temple and congregation in the state of Minnesota. This Rabbi would eulogize Isadore Blumenfield the most notorious mobster in Minnesota history and also a close collaborator of Meyer Lansky. In 2011 this same synagogue would host a furloughed Son of Sam killer David Berkowitz as a speaker at the Synagogue at $1,150.00 per ticket to congregation members. 

Franken's connection to Manson is his close relationship to the satanic Grateful Dead and Gravy Wavy Hog Farm 

Another comment regarding Chevy Chase is he and his family descend from the Van Courtlandt family a anti American Revolution Tory family. According to David Berkowitz the Process and their group of satanists would hold their rituals in the Van Courtlandt Park in Brooklyn NY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Cortlandt_Park

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Jim Harwood

[John Kozlowski]

Are there any good forums dedicated to Manson and the Tate/LaBianca murder that anyone can recommend? 

[Jim Harwood]

10 hours ago, John Kozlowski said:

Are there any good forums dedicated to Manson and the Tate/LaBianca murder that anyone can recommend? 

Sorry John but I don't have any good suggestions for a Manson/Tate forum. But here is an interesting video with Manson talking about his first encounter in prison (I think he dates it 1950) with Ron Hubbard's Dianetics (Scientology) and Robert Moores "Process Church of the Final Judgement" which the British exported to this country soon after exporting the likes of the Beatles, Stones, Animals, etc. or what became tongue and cheek known as the "British Invasion" they sent the heavier artillery their satanic networks.  "All you need is love.......... we all live in a yellow submarine....

 

 

 

[David Andrews]

11 hours ago, John Kozlowski said:

Are there any good forums dedicated to Manson and the Tate/LaBianca murder that anyone can recommend? 

In case you haven't seen this thread:

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16991-Zodiac-Killer-was-a-Member-of-the-International-White-Guard&p=125978#post125978

It's useful to search DPF and EF for past Manson threads that can lead you to forums.

See this site for forum links - see bottom of page:

http://www.cielodrive.com/index.php

Sorry - I don't follow Manson stuff constantly, it's just the O'Neill book and other emerging news that revives my interest.

There's this:

http://mansonmurders.proboards.com/

There's this blog, not a forum.  The guy really pushes legal and moral boundaries in dealing with the Tate family and others, but there may be some truths here:

http://tatelabianca.blogspot.com/2012/08/i-have-little-system-of-my-own.html

Edited August 28, 2019 by David Andrews