Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties

[Ron Ecker]

I recall reading that Charles Manson found a reference to the Beatles in the New Testament book of Revelation. Something that symbolized the wires on their electric guitars.

If one looks hard enough, I'm sure that one could find references in Revelation to the CIA.

The Woman on the Scarlet Beast, for example, could be the current CIA director.

 

 

 

 

 

[Darrell Curtis]

21 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Nat King Cole is great.

 

I don’t know if anyone caught it but my post was a quote from Frank Zappa’s “Joe’s Garage”.

 

 

 

Besides, this thread is off-topic.

 

I caught that. He was such a nice boy, he used to cut the grass.

[Cliff Varnell]

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

With that said, the first time I heard a live performance of "acid rock" I felt as if the intent of this was truly to physically assault one's body and senses.

Joe, do you remember the name of the band?

[James DiEugenio]

I am about halfway through O'Neil's book, Chaos.

Its really two books.  The first is his take on what he thinks happened.  The second is his assault on Bugliosi.

So far, he is much more effective on the latter than the former.

In fact, I will go this far:  Bugliosi should have been disbarred for what he did in that case.  Off his pitiful work on JFK I went back and reviewed Tate/LaBianca. After my review, I suspected some unethical behavior and some attempt to pollute the jury pool.  But since Tom spent so much more time on this, he takes it the final mile in that regard.  The book is so convincing in that regard that, to people like Von Pein, who tried to form a fan club around this guy, and Dale Myers, who worked with him, they should  be ashamed of themselves for falling for him without doing due diligence.  To use one example, there is little or no doubt now that Melcher was  more involved with the Family than he testified to.  Bugliosi was aware of this, and in a secret deal, he agreed to  cover it up. IMO, this is why Candy Bergen has never said anything about this subject. 

And believe me, that is not all.  Not by a long shot. Bugliosi was very worried  with what Tom was uncovering about what he really did. In that regard, it  is fortunate that VB has passed on.  

I will be doing a combo review of this book with Once Upon a Time In Hollywood at K and K. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[David Andrews]

One of the valuable records in Chaos is the recounting of the threats, cover-ups and shutdowns, and flipped testimonies that O'Neill faced among Hollywood players and hangers-on, criminals, LAPD, LASO and area authorities.  As in the JFKA, these experiences show how long and how far the involvements and fear last and reach.  Some of the creepier parts read like Chinatown Pt. II (and not The Two Jakes), if the dialogue is accurate.

Some flaws of the book occur because O'Neill is not conversant in the RFK assassination.  His research into CIA relations with LAPD and mind control in California would have benefited from examining the Sandra Serrano interrogation, the mind control aspects of Sirhan's behavior (O'Neill seems to not know that Jolyon West examined Sirhan), LAPD evidence tampering, and all blocks to reopening the legal case against Sirhan.  These are, at the very least, historical analogs to O'Neill's research interests.

O'Neill should have been a member here long ago.  Anybody reaching out and suggesting this guy dive into some of our back threads on RFK?

Edited July 26, 2019 by David Andrews

[James DiEugenio]

david:

I assume you finished the book.

I am about 3/4 done.  I agree with you.  I was surprised that Tom was apparently unacquainted with the RFK case.  Especially because of the path he chose to follow near the end.

Also, because he was in Los Angeles for the last 15-20 years.  To him, the fact that police departments cooperated and had ties to CIA was something he discovered. In fact Turner and Christian were specific about this back in 1978 in regards to the RFK case.  I also agree about his lack of insight into the whole MK Ultra thing with Sirhan.

I wish he had confided in me more as I could have informed him about those matters.

 

[David Andrews]

Well, like many conspiracy books, this one does contain, somewhere near the beginning, the disclaimer that (paraphrase) "I never wanted to be an assassination conspiracy theorist" - so, go figure the results. 

The flaws in the book - part of the co-writing strategy was shaping the narrative around an "I couldn't get far enough, fast enough" trope - shouldn't obscure the discoveries made and the cracks widened in the official story.  Getting a good publisher, plus some good press and public appearances, gets this information farther out than it's ever been, and could pave the way for a sequel.  O'Neill may already be finding witnesses willing to open up after seeing the published work.  Gofundme.com time!

Jim, get O'Neill a Forum membership.  A competent Manson debate (separate from this JFK debate) might be started.  It's needed here, for several reasons.

Edited July 26, 2019 by David Andrews

[James DiEugenio]

I really wish he had given me that part of the book to proofread.

Because obviously, someone at Little Brown dropped the ball.

He's got Hale Boggs testifying to the HSCA, the guy died before it was formed.

Blakey did not write his book "years" later.  He wrote it less than two years after the HSCA dissolved.

The stuff about West was pretty interesting though.  But Tom admitted he could not get him connected to the Family, let alone Manson.

Edited July 27, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Douglas Caddy]

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/book-charles-manson-cia-secret-history-1960s-tom-oneill-856651/

[David Andrews]

On 7/26/2019 at 11:44 PM, James DiEugenio said:

I really wish he had given me that part of the book to proofread.

Because obviously, someone at Little Brown dropped the ball.

He's got Hale Boggs testifying to the HSCA, the guy died before it was formed.

Blakey did not write his book "years" later.  He wrote it less than two years after the HSCA dissolved.

The stuff about West was pretty interesting though.  But Tom admitted he could not get him connected to the Family, let alone Manson.

I'm thinking that no publisher fact-checks non-fiction anymore.  As with novels, it's all about keeping the narrative moving to create a cash cow.  The only exception is books featuring  living subjects who can sue,

[David Andrews]

16 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/book-charles-manson-cia-secret-history-1960s-tom-oneill-856651/

See correction at end of article,  It takes a millennial to imagine Parade magazine would fund a decade's research into Manson.  I can just see the cover, falling out of the Sunday paper.

[James DiEugenio]

I saw "Once upon a time  in Hollywood Tonight".

Yech.

I will be reviewing this rubbish along with Tom's book.

Edited July 28, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Robert Harper]

Edited July 28, 2019 by Robert Harper

[Robert Harper]

Reading this thread has been mostly new to me. I didn't question the Manson story at the time. Of course, since then I've been exposed to a lot of MKULTRA and Sidney Gottlieb and Assoc. lurid and immoral behavior. When I was reading Alston Chase's book , Harvard and the  Unabomber, I started to be able to form intellectually what I couldn't understand. He  - Kaczynski - had entered Harvard as a 16 year old product of public High School in working class area of Michigan. He was a bright kid who excelled in math and physics; was withdrawn, but not aggressive and after his first year "volunteered" to be part of a psychology experiment run by a Dr Murray who was funded through MKULTRA. Many times, prisoners, or ill people or enlisted personnel, or handicapped and minority people were used as subjects without their knowledge; this time, it was dressed up in academic garb, and - like Kinsey's studies - used a warped sampling to bombard an individual's brain, with  his or her reaction to stress, and the ability to withstand an un-sourced hallucination or how he responds to aggressive and unexplained questioning. Thoughts of poor Frank Olsen come to mind. Ted Kaczynski was subject to these "advances" in science while a teenager and while an outsider among many of his classmates  in Cambridge.

It felt like a Greek drama  - when he was found living in the woods in Montana - because his brother turned him in. For 17 years, every single law enforcement agency was used to try and apprehend him. A huge bounty  was offered for information on him. Kaczynski decided to stop his random killings if the NY Times and Wash Post printed his writings on the misuse of the industrial revolution; it got termed his "manifesto" and they published it. No finger prints were ever found, no connections to material or batteries or postal delivery methods. But when his brother and sister-in-law read the work, they contacted the FBI because it "sounded so much like Ted." He got life without parole, but  Helms, Gottlieb and crew who created warped minds in an effort to "out fox" the "enemy" and test what defenses are possible in young minds, lived outtheir time in comfort and pensions.

[Douglas Caddy]

Manson Cover-up subject of tonight's coasttocoastam program:

 

https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2019/07/28