Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Steve Thomas]

On 8/31/2019 at 5:49 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

There is no evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire.  (He said he left the theater “later” after the police had questioned the customers.)  Nowhere in his affidavit or 1964 testimony does he say when he first saw Main Floor Oswald in the theater.

Deleted

Edited March 3, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

Looks to me that Westbrook was in charge, at least until "Oswald" was sent to police headquarters to be executed, but....

The rigor of your posts is most appreciated.  Combining graphics of documents with a cohesive narrative is a technique we should all strive to attain. Nevertheless, neither you nor anybody else has shown evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire.

But there is considerable evidence that something serious happened in the balcony of the Texas Theater during the early afternoon of November 22, 1963.

Since the list of theater patrons vanished, we only have two eyewitnesses on the record as to when Main Floor Oswald arrived at the theater, Butch Burroughs and Jack Davis. Both witnesses say he (Oswald) was there before 1:15 pm, the time the WC wanted us to believe Tippit was murdered.  And Davis’s description of events suggests Main Floor Oswald may have created a scene because he moved about in the theater, sitting right next to several different customers, which may be one of the reasons the customer list had to disappear.

By his own account, Applin was on the main floor, not the balcony, and so he had nothing to do with the Balcony Oswald.  According to the WC, citing the Postal/Brewer saga, Balcony Oswald entered the theater shortly after 1:30 pm, at least 20 minutes after Burroughs and Davis saw Main Floor Oswald inside the theater.  

At 1:45 pm, Postal called the police and said the suspicious man who ducked into the theater was hiding in the balcony.  At 1:46 pm, the Dallas Police dispatcher broadcast this message: “Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson ... supposed to be hiding in balcony.  

Two DPD reports say “Oswald” was arrested in the balcony (one is shown below).  For decades now, Burroughs has said he saw a man who looked like Classic Oswald® arrested in the balcony soon after Main Floor Oswald was captured.  That man was not George Applin. 

I know you don't agree with me on everything, but do you have a theory about why the list of Texas Theater patrons disappeared while in DPD custody?

Edited September 1, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Steve Thomas]

On 8/31/2019 at 7:04 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Looks to me that Westbrook was in charge, at least until "Oswald" was sent to police headquarters to be executed, but....

Nevertheless, neither you nor anybody else has shown evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire.

 

I know you don't agree with me on everything, but do you have a theory about why the list of Texas Theater patrons disappeared while in DPD custody?

 

 

Deleted

Edited March 3, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

There is no evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit 

There is indeed no direct evidence (a photo or a written statement, for example) to show that Applin was escorted out by the police via one of the two rear doors, and then driven away in a police car. But, as I pointed out earlier, there is no good reason to doubt that this is what happened:

- Applin was spoken to by police officers in the auditorium, which was located at the end of the Texas Theater furthest away from the main entrance, and adjacent to the alley.

- At least one of the police officers who spoke to Applin had entered the auditorium via one of the doors which linked the rear of the building to the alley.

- The alley contained several police cars. Those cars were surely the ones which had conveyed to the Texas Theater the police officers who spoke to Applin in the auditorium at the rear of the building.

- Applin left the Texas Theater in the company of those police officers.

- Applin was driven away from the Texas Theater in a police car.

- The police officers who escorted Applin from the Texas Theater and drove him away are very likely to have used the same cars in which they arrived.

- Applin was a 21-year-old white man.

- Bernard Haire saw one, and only one, young white man being escorted from the rear of the Texas Theater by the police and driven away in a police car that had been parked in the alley.

- There is no evidence that more than one person was escorted by police officers out of the Texas Theater via one of the doors leading to the alley, and then driven away in a police car. No witnesses mentioned such an occurrence. There are no known photographs or home movies or news films of such an occurrence.

- If, as the evidence overwhelmingly suggests, only one person was escorted by police officers from the rear of the Texas Theater and driven away in a police car, the sole candidate is George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

- Applin was (and, for all I know, still is) a real-life human being, as opposed to Jim's candidate, who is a made-up character in a work of fiction.

Quote

, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire. (He said he left the theater “later” after the police had questioned the customers.)

Jim's friend Greg Parker replied to this point several days ago, after Jim first brought it up. I'm surprised Jim hasn't read that reply. He can find it here (along with Jeff Stanton's explanation of the 'balcony arrest' mix-up):

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2051-time-to-kill-another-myth-there-was-no-second-oswald-arrested-at-the-theater

To paraphrase, it was Joseph Ball, not George Applin, who used the word 'later'. We know that Applin left soon after giving his details to the police because after he'd been driven to City Hall and had his affidavit taken, the police thought there was still a chance that he could be driven back to the cinema in time catch the rest of the double-bill.

Quote

For decades now, Burroughs has said he saw a man who looked like [the one and only historical Oswald] arrested in the balcony soon after [the one and only historical Oswald] was captured.

In his Warren Commission testimony (Hearings, vol.7, pp.14-17: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=41#relPageId=24), Burroughs mentions seeing the real-life, historical Lee Harvey Oswald being escorted out of the front of the building in handcuffs, but he doesn't mention anything about seeing an arrest, or even any innocent event that could be misinterpreted as an arrest, in the balcony. Burroughs' account of his movements implies that he stayed on the ground floor and never went up to the balcony.

The only secondary source I can find which comes close to supporting Jim's claim is James Douglass's Unspeakable, which mentions an interview from 2007 in which Burroughs claimed to have seen someone who looked like Oswald arrested and taken out of the rear of the building (pp.292-3, and pp.460-1 n.449). Burroughs' recollection was prompted by Douglass's question, "Now you didn't see anybody else get arrested that day, did you?" Burroughs does not appear to have told Douglass that the incident he saw, which he interpreted 44 years after the event as an arrest, took place in the balcony.

The only other secondary source I can find which mentions an interview with Burroughs is Jim Marrs' Crossfire. Marrs claimed that Burroughs told Marrs in 1987 that he sold popcorn to the real-life, historical Lee Harvey Oswald at around 1.15, but Burroughs doesn't appear to have told Marrs anything about seeing an arrest in the balcony (Pocket Books edition, 1993, p.353). In fact, Burroughs implies, again, that he never went up to the balcony. Given Marrs' treatment of the Texas Theater episode, he would surely have reported that Burroughs had witnessed something resembling an arrest in the balcony, if Burroughs had mentioned it. We can conclude that Burroughs didn't tell Marrs anything about seeing an incident that could be interpreted as an arrest in the balcony.

All we have, then, is George Applin encountering the police in the auditorium on the ground floor, being escorted out of the rear of the Texas Theater a few minutes after the arrest of Oswald, and being driven away in a police car so that he could give a statement. Bernard Haire put two and two together and assumed that Applin was that Oswald guy who was reported to have been arrested and taken away by the police. More than four decades later, Butch Burroughs also put two and two together and assumed that his 44-year-old recollection of George Applin being led out of the rear of the Texas Theater by the police, which he had neglected to mention to Jim Marrs 20 years earlier, was actually of someone being arrested.

Conclusion: witnesses make mistakes sometimes.

[Jim Hargrove]

Burroughs apparently was talking about the arrest of an “Oswald” lookalike in the theater at least as far back as 1993, long before his interview with James Douglass.
 

(Thanks to Malcolm Blunt and Bart for the above.)  I’ll try respond to some of the other issues raised above when I have more time. (We're hosting a Labor Day party tomorrow.)

[John Butler]

" [the one and only historical Oswald] "

There were two Oswalds.  The evidence is overwhelming in more than one case.  I have been reviewing the military history of the two Oswalds.  As I said the black and white documentation is overwhelming and beyond doubt.

There was an Oswald, Lee Oswald, at Atsugi, Japan on October 4, 1958.  There was another Oswald, Harvey Oswald, at Ping Tung, Taiwan on October 4, 1958.  Both were under the name Lee H. Oswald.  These two men could not be one man in two different places roughly 800 miles apart on the same day.  The documentation for this is at the Harvey and Lee site.  It is not fictitious, but real.

Harvey and Lee may not have always been working at the same place at the same time, but eventually they would be at the same place or at least close by.  Why would Dallas, TX be any different? 

Edited September 2, 2019 by John Butler

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/23/2019 at 12:11 PM, Michael Cross said:

You guys have the WC crew out in force.  Must be on the right track.

Thanks, your view is appreciated.  A thread lasting over a month on the forum is incredible to me.  If I've touched a nerve, well I've had nerves touched personally, recently.  Two in the TT still seems True to me.

[Karl Hilliard]

On 8/29/2019 at 5:45 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

 

Applin's claim that he went to Butch Burroughs' concession stand before having his details taken by the police does not, as Jim suggested, imply that Applin left by the front of the building. A plan of the Texas Theatre reveals that the concession stand was at the back of the auditorium, and was separated from the lobby by a set of doors. The concession stand was in fact closer to one of the rear doors than to the front entrance.

After re-reading  Mr Applin's testimony I note that he states 'the rear of the theater' and that could very well mean in the back where people sit facing the screen. Unfortunately, the council [Mr Ball] did not obtain clarification on which doorway Applin had used. He should have asked--Did you go out the alley?    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/applin.htm

Also the theater diagram adds to the confusion... http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/utils/getfile/collection/po-arm/id/10936/filename/10935.pdfpage/page/2

Because if Oswald was sitting in the rear [like Applin said]--the chart shows the 'rear' to be back by the front door also.

I saw that ROKC thread. If they mean well, it seems like it's in a mean spirited way.

If Oswald was buying popcorn at 1:15 [say] how did he get to the Texas Theater?---and in less than 15 minutes?

[Cory Santos]

On 8/31/2019 at 5:04 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Looks to me that Westbrook was in charge, at least until "Oswald" was sent to police headquarters to be executed, but....

The rigor of your posts is most appreciated.  Combining graphics of documents with a cohesive narrative is a technique we should all strive to attain. Nevertheless, neither you nor anybody else has shown evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire.

But there is considerable evidence that something serious happened in the balcony of the Texas Theater during the early afternoon of November 22, 1963.

Since the list of theater patrons vanished, we only have two eyewitnesses on the record as to when Main Floor Oswald arrived at the theater, Butch Burroughs and Jack Davis. Both witnesses say he (Oswald) was there before 1:15 pm, the time the WC wanted us to believe Tippit was murdered.  And Davis’s description of events suggests Main Floor Oswald may have created a scene because he moved about in the theater, sitting right next to several different customers, which may be one of the reasons the customer list had to disappear.

By his own account, Applin was on the main floor, not the balcony, and so he had nothing to do with the Balcony Oswald.  According to the WC, citing the Postal/Brewer saga, Balcony Oswald entered the theater shortly after 1:30 pm, at least 20 minutes after Burroughs and Davis saw Main Floor Oswald inside the theater.  

At 1:45 pm, Postal called the police and said the suspicious man who ducked into the theater was hiding in the balcony.  At 1:46 pm, the Dallas Police dispatcher broadcast this message: “Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson ... supposed to be hiding in balcony.  

Two DPD reports say “Oswald” was arrested in the balcony (one is shown below).  For decades now, Burroughs has said he saw a man who looked like Classic Oswald® arrested in the balcony soon after Main Floor Oswald was captured.  That man was not George Applin. 

I know you don't agree with me on everything, but do you have a theory about why the list of Texas Theater patrons disappeared while in DPD custody?

Jim I appreciate your work but Burrough's testimony is simply not credible.  That does not discredit your theory.  I am just saying don't make his testimony a bedrock for your theory because his testimony has problems.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Cory Santos

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Karl,

Yes, I'm sure that Applin was referring to the fact that he had been sitting in one of the rows furthest away from the screen.

But the auditorium was toward the rear of the building, i.e. the side furthest away from the main entrance, and the side closest to the alley. The doors to the alley were closer than the door to Jefferson Boulevard (Robert Groden's The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald includes a photo of the interior, showing a door very close to the seats). At least one of the police officers who spoke to Applin entered from the alley, where several police cars were parked. The officers who escorted Applin would surely have taken him away in one of the cars they had arrived in.

There was no reason for Ball to ask Applin which exit he used when he was escorted out by the police, because there was no reason then (and even less now) to suspect that anyone other than Oswald and Applin was taken away by the police.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

On Sunday 1 September, Jim Hargrove wrote:

Quote

I’ll try respond to some of the other issues raised above when I have more time. (We're hosting a Labor Day party tomorrow.)

Here we are, almost a week later. The excitement of Jim's party is now but a fading memory. The DJ and his crew have loaded their sound system and disco ball onto a truck and moved on to their next gig. The last of the guests has staggered home. Jim has fished most of the empty beer cans and discarded bikini-tops from the pool, and he has mopped up that disgusting mess that someone left in the spare bedroom.

He has found the time to comment on several other threads, and has even started a new one himself, but he hasn't yet found the time to provide his eager audience with the details of Butch Burroughs' tale of seeing an Oswald doppelganger, possibly a Cherokee-speaking Egyptian refugee with sloping shoulders and an extra-large head, being arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.

Could it be that Mr Burroughs never actually said anything about seeing an arrest in the balcony? Certainly, Jim Marrs and James Douglass failed to report that Burroughs had mentioned this important fact to them. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's beginning to suspect that Mr Burroughs never said anything to anyone about seeing an Oswald doppelganger being arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater. I may be wrong, though, and would be interested to see Burroughs' statement to that effect, if it exists.

In the absence of such a statement, we must assume that Jim's claim is untrue, and that Butch Burroughs never said that he had seen an arrest in the balcony.

What are we left with? Well, we have several known facts and reasonable inferences: that George Applin, a 21-year-old white man, spoke to one or more police officers on the ground floor of the Texas Theater, close to the alley; that he was escorted out of the building by those police officers, very likely via the rear entrance and into the alley, since that is where those officers had parked their cars; and that he was driven away in a police car, very likely in one of the police cars that were parked in the alley.

Burroughs, standing inside the auditorium on the ground floor, claimed to have seen something resembling an arrest, with the supposed suspect being escorted out of the rear of the building by police officers, just as George Applin almost certainly was.

Bernard Haire, standing in the alley at the rear of the building, saw a young white man being escorted into the alley from the rear of the building by police officers and being driven away in a police car, just as George Applin almost certainly was.

There is no evidence that any other person was escorted from the rear of the building that day. It is blindingly obvious that what Burroughs and Haire saw from their respective viewpoints inside and outside the Texas Theater was the same event: George Applin being taken away by the police so that he could give a signed and witnessed statement.

Yet another piece of evidence for the 'Harvey and Lee' theory turns out to have a perfectly ordinary explanation.

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Here we are, almost a week later. The excitement of Jim's party is now but a fading memory. The DJ and his crew have loaded their sound system and disco ball onto a truck and moved on to their next gig. The last of the guests has staggered home. Jim has fished most of the empty beer cans and discarded bikini-tops from the pool, and he has mopped up that disgusting mess that someone left in the spare bedroom.

He has found the time to comment on several other threads, and has even started a new one himself, but he hasn't yet found the time to provide his eager audience with the details of Butch Burroughs' tale of seeing an Oswald doppelganger, possibly a Cherokee-speaking Egyptian refugee with sloping shoulders and an extra-large head, being arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.

Wow, Mr. B. sure wants to scold me!  He is obviously so concerned about the Harvey and Lee Menace® that he comes here to talk about nothing else but the Harvey and Lee Menace®.  He thinks the list of theater patrons disappeared because... uh... because police didn’t want us to know George Applin was in the theater? Really?

Mr. B. wants us to believe this balcony business is just nuts, but....

Isn’t it amazing that a day after the most famous arrest in the history of Texas Det. L.D. Stringfellow wrote a short report saying “Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater...”?

Isn’t it amazing that the official DPD Homicide Report for J.D. Tippit indicates that “Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater at 231 W. Jefferson.”

Mr. B. wants us to believe that these were just silly mistakes.  Mr. B. wants us to believe that the list of theater patrons disappeared for no reason at all and that “Yet another piece of evidence for the 'Harvey and Lee' theory turns out to have a perfectly ordinary explanation.”  He is right that I incorrectly indicated that Burroughs said he saw the arrest in the balcony.  But he is dead wrong that this most likely has “a perfectly ordinary explanation.”

Burroughs and Jack Davis both said one “Oswald” was inside the Texas Theater before 1:15 pm, the time the WC wants us to believe Tippit was shot.   And yet Postal and Brewer and the WC told us the second Oswald didn’t enter the theater until after 1:30 pm.  The “perfectly ordinary explanation” is that there were two people, with two wallets, sharing the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald.”  One "Oswald/Hidell" wallet appeared in Westbrook's hands at 10th and Patton, and the other "Oswald/Hidell" wallet was taken from "Oswald" in the police car.

All this, according to Mr. B, has "a perfectly ordinary explanation."  The real problem, according to Mr. B., is not with the evidence in this case, but simply with the Harvey and Lee Menace®!

Edited September 7, 2019 by Jim Hargrove
removed incorrect reference to license plates

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

according to Steve Thomas, the list of license plates on cars parked next to the theater also disappeared

Jim,

 

This goes back so many years I almost hate to mention it, but I have a vague memory of somebody in the Dallas Police Department who testified about taking down the names of people in the parking lot and either in his after-action report, or in his testimony, reported turning those names over to Sergeant Howard.

E.B. Howard was a Sergeant in the Traffic Division/Traffic Control.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

page 15 of the pdf file.

At 12:37 PM Howard radioed in and asked Captain Perdue Lawrence if he wanted him (Howard) to stay up on Industrial or go somewhere else.

During his WC testimony, William Barnett said that "his" Sergeant, who was  at the back of the TSBD told him run up to the front and get the name of the building. When asked who "his" Sergeant was, Barnett said Sergeant Howard even though Howard normally worked the Second Platoon shift, and Barnett worked the Third Platoon shift.

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

On 9/7/2019 at 5:34 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Isn’t it amazing that the official DPD Homicide Report for J.D. Tippit indicates that “Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater at 231 W. Jefferson.”

 

Jim,

 

It's kind of interesting. Lots of people say that Westbrook was in charge at the Theater, but that's not what Westbrook himself said.

" Mr. BALL. Were you the senior officer there?
Mr. WESTBROOK. Possibly--I don't think there was another captain there. There was a lieutenant and then I ordered all of them to be sure and take the names of everyone in the theatre at that time."

 

We know that Captain, C.E. Talbert was on the scene out back, and I noticed that it is Talbert who is listed on this Homicide Report.

Historically, I wish more attention had been paid to what was going on "behind the scenes".

 

Steve Thomas

Edited March 3, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

On 9/1/2019 at 3:38 AM, Steve Thomas said:

As far as the disappearing list of Theater patrons, my guess is that it fell in the same Alice in Wonderland hole as the list of license plates from the TSBD parking lot.

Steve... Ah, I misread your remark above about license plates from the TSBD parking lot.  I remembered it as plates from cars by the theater.  I've corrected my post that you quoted to remove reference to the plates.

It's interesting about Westbrook saying he was "possibly" the senior officer there.  I think his testimony is full of untruths, and I still think Westbrook was most likely the guy who "lost" the names of theater patrons.  After all, he gave the order to get the names.  Wouldn't he be the logical guy to receive what he ordered?

Edited September 7, 2019 by Jim Hargrove