Michael Paine, Oswald lookalike?

[Denny Zartman]

I apologize if this has been covered before, but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere other than @Vince Palamara 's 2018 book "Who's Who In The Secret Service" (Appendix III, Pgs. 276 - 280). Vince cites a December 2-3, 1963 report filed by Agent Floyd Boring that recounts a story of "Harvey Lee" Oswald apparently being seen in Washington DC on September 27, 1963, the day Oswald was allegedly arriving in Mexico City. Vince also says that at that time of this alleged sighting of LHO in DC, Ruth Paine had just returned to New Orleans after a trip to Washington DC where she apparently visited her sister at CIA headquarters.

I was just wondering if this had been discussed anywhere else on this forum or elsewhere. There seems to be a superficial resemblance between Michael Paine and Lee Oswald. Vice places pictures of the two men side by side and there seems to be a resemblance, at least to my eyes. Is it possible that Michael's involvement as an Oswald double might help explain Roger Craig's alleged sighting of (and Oswald's alleged identification of) Ruth's Rambler in Dealey Plaza, and maybe the furniture store visit and other sightings as well? It seems to me that posing as Oswald would be easier if there was a convenient way to keep tabs on the real Oswald's whereabouts, and it seems all Michael would have to do to know Oswald's location most of the time would be to call Ruth.

[Vince Palamara]

I vividly remember showing an excerpt of black and white video from WFAA-TV (ABC) from 11/22/63 at the COPA 1996 conference in D.C. and people freaked out at the resemblance between Michael Paine and Lee Oswald. I know the (now retired?) researchers Barbara Lamonica, Carol Hewett, and Steve Jones all were majorly into researching the Paines and were among the throng who were most impressed with the M. Paine/LHO resemblance. I will never forget the "ooh"s and "ahh" s when I showed this film. Some non-researcher guy's comment there at the conference was classic: "who the hell cares? what's all the fuss. That's Oswald- big deal"--!!!! When he was informed that it was Michael Paine, he muttered "Jesus Christ!"

The guy who actually visited Albert Bogard, the shooting range, etc. ? Hmmmm

LHO:

 

[Vince Palamara]

@James DiEugenio

[David Andrews]

The Paine-Oswald resemblance has been discussed in the back threads, but I don't remember Paine being linked to any particular "second Oswald" appearance.  Can't be overruled, though.

Edited July 22, 2019 by David Andrews

[Stephanie Goldberg]

Given the fact that the Paines are still a huge ??? in the research, I don't discount anything about Michael Paine at this point.

I wonder how difficult it would be to obtain an interview with Ruth Paine?  She's still alive, yes?

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

Given the fact that the Paines are still a huge ??? in the research, I don't discount anything about Michael Paine at this point.

I wonder how difficult it would be to obtain an interview with Ruth Paine?  She's still alive, yes?

She's still alive to my knowledge.  Not an interview but Q & A she did do near the 50th.  While she's the most questioned Warren Commission witness she's never been cross examined in depth so to speak.  At 35 minutes in she gets asked about providing evidence after the searches had been done but side steps the question.  Later she explains away the seven little file cabinets, contrary to the DPD and Sheriff's Office records say.

 https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ruth+paine+interview&&view=detail&mid=84CCB2A1924D5EC9227B84CCB2A1924D5EC9227B&&FORM=VDRVRV

Edited July 22, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

Given the fact that the Paines are still a huge ??? in the research, I don't discount anything about Michael Paine at this point.

I wonder how difficult it would be to obtain an interview with Ruth Paine?  She's still alive, yes?

As of a couple years ago a member here said she would give an interview to people who have read all of her testimony. That member had, indeed, claimed to have interviewed her.

[Stephanie Goldberg]

Ron - Thanks for the link!  I've seen shorter interviews with her, but that's the longest piece where I've seen/heard her speaking.  It was a very interesting presentation which raised more questions than it answered in some respects.

I also found it interesting during the above speech in the above video clip where Mrs. Paine said that when people called her, she would ask them for their opinion of the Walker shooting.  If they didn't know anything about it, she'd tell them to do so more reading and then call back.   

Michael - It wouldn't be that difficult to read all of her testimony before the Warren Commission, the HSCA & the Garrison trial.  Wouldn't it be fascinating to speak with her in person?  Do we know what this forum member asked when they interviewed Mrs. Paine?  

 

[Lewis Reynolds]

I'm presuming the makers of this film have had access to Mrs Paine:

https://www.jfkpaine.com/

Very interested in seeing this film when its finished.

[Michael Clark]

6 hours ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

Michael - It wouldn't be that difficult to read all of her testimony before the Warren Commission, the HSCA & the Garrison trial.  Wouldn't it be fascinating to speak with her in person?  Do we know what this forum member asked when they interviewed Mrs. Paine?  

I don’t believe the interview was shared in a comprehensive manner. In fact, I had the impression that the interview was not recorded in any manner at all.

[Denny Zartman]

Here is my best attempt at transcribing the Secret Service report mentioned in my first post and reproduced in “Who’s Who In The Secret Service” by Vince Palamara, Pgs 277 - 279 :

UNITED STATES SECRET SERVICE
TREASURY DEPARTMENT

????? Field   ????? Washington, D.C. FILE NO. CO-2-601.0
TYPE OF CASE Protective Research
STATUS Pending
INVESTIGATION MADE AT
Washington, D.C.
PERIOD COVERED
12/2-3/63
INVESTIGATION MADE BY
Special Agent William H. McClarin, Jr.

Person Identified:
Name: Harvey Lee Oswald
Alleged appearance in Washington, D.C., on September 27, 1963

SYNOPSIS
Mr. Bernard Thompson, Chauffeur for Secretary Freeman, identified photograph of Harvey Lee Oswald as resembling an individual whom he had a conversation with on September 27, 1963, in front of the Willard Hotel. This individual made several antagonistic remarks regarding the Secretary’s car being parked in a no parking area.

(A) INTRODUCTION:

This case originated with information received in this office from Assistant Special Agent in Charge F. W. Boring, White House Detail, on December 2, 1963, that a personal acquaintance of his, Mr. Bernard Thompson, 2104 Shiply Terrace, S.E., Apartment 203, telephone #562 3450, office telephone # DU 8 5092, a Chauffeur for Secretary of Agriculture Freeman, had reported to him that he believed he had a conversation with Oswald regarding the Secretary’s car in front of the Willard Hotel in the latter part of September 1963.

(B) GENERAL INQUIRIES

On December 2, 193, ASAIC Boring was interviewed and related that Mr. Bernard Thompson, whom he has known for some time and who is employed as a Chauffeur for Secretary Freeman, had informed him on December 1, 1963, that he believed he had seen Harvey Lee Oswald in front of the Willard Hotel in the latter part of September of this year. Thompson told Mr. Boring that a stranger had walked over to the Secretary’s car which was parked in front of the Willard Hotel and demanded to know whose car it was. Mr. Thompson refused to tell him anything except that it was a Government car and thereupon moved it around the corner, and this individual again approached him and asked the same question.

REPORT MADE BY William H. McClarin, Jr.  DATE 12/11/63
APPROVED Harry W. Geiglein  DATE 12/11/63

CO-2-601.0
Page 2

Mr. Boring said that Mr. Thompson was quite concerned about this matter at the time because he did not believe this individual was acting in a usual manner and that this matter had been preying on his mind for some time; that when the pictures of Oswald appeared in the paper after the President’s assassination , Mr. Thompson thought that he recognized Oswald as being this same individual. Mr. Boring stated that Mr. Thompson is not a crank and that he has a sincere desire to give information which he believes to be of value in our investigation.

On December 3, 1963, a photograph of Harvey Lee Oswald was obtained from the Protective Research Section. The following known aliases of Harvey Lee Oswald were also obtained at that time: O. H. Lee, A. J. Hidell, Alek J. Hidell, Alex James Hidell, A. Haidell.

On December 3, 1963, Mr. Thompson was interviewed in the Washington field office. He stated that in the later part of September, rather around the 25th of the month, at about 3:10 P.M., he arrived at the north entrance of the Willard Hotel which would be the corner of of 14th & F Streets; that he parked in the no parking zone in front of the hotel entrance, as he was expecting Mrs. Freeman to come out of the hotel where she was attending a function; that an individual whom he did not know came out of the hotel entrance, walked directly to his car and demanded to know “Whose car is this.” Mr. Thompson said that he replied that it was a Government car. Mr. Thompson said that this individual then said to him, “This must be some big official’s car. This is a no parking zone. You have no right to park here.” Mr. Thompson said that this man did not say this in a conversational type of tone, or a friendly tone in any sense, but that he appeared to be highly antagonistic and Mr. Thompson classified him as the “reble rouser type.” Mr. Thompson then said that rather than to get in an argument with this man, he drove slowly around the block again returning to the F Street side, but rather than parking directly in front of the hotel entrance, he parked nearer to 15th Street. The same individual who had acosted him before spotted the car, walked down the sidewalk from in front of the hotel entrance and stood opposite the car, staring at Mr. Thompson; that Mr. Thompson became concerned as he did not think this was normal behavior. He noticed that a White House car was parked directly in front of him  and he thereupon spoke with the driver whose first name he recalls as George, and told him of the actions of this individual. He requested the White House driver to take a good look at this man and keep his eye on him while he, Mr. Thompson, went over and spoke with the policeman at the 14th Street inter-

CO-2-601.0
Page 3

section about this man. Mr. Thompson said that he spoke with this officer and advised what this individual had done and also requested permission from the officer to park in the entrance of the hotel while waiting for Mrs. Freeman. He said that the officer told him it was alright to park there while waiting for Mrs. Freeman and also that the officer walked with him down the sidewalk and took a good look at the man, however, the police officer did not stop and question the individual, but merely walked on down the sidewalk.

Mr. Thompson said that he was concerned about this incident and when he returned to the Agriculture Department, he informed his supervisor about it and also Mr. Thomas Hughes, the Secretary’s Executive Officer.

At this point, Mr. Thompson examined a spread of photographs containing one of Oswald. After examining each photograph, he picked the photograph of Oswald as most resembling the individual involved in the incident described above. Mr. Thompson described the individual whom he saw as a white American male, early 20’s. 5’7” tall. 130-135 lbs., slender build, dark hair, either black or brown, combed straight back with a slight wave, wearing a sport shirt and light colored trousers with narrow cuffs.

Mr. Thompson said that the only picture he really has looked at since the President’s assassination, was a picture in the newspaper taken at the time Oswald was shot by Ruby in the Dallas Police Station and that he felt that Oswald very closely resembled the individual described in the incident above.

On the same date, while Mr. Thompson was in the office, he telephonically contacted Mr. Thomas Hughes, Executive Officer to Secretary Freeman, in an effort to establish the date on which the foregoing incident occurred. Mr. Hughes checked Mrs. Freeman’s social calendar and determined that the date was September 27, 1963.

On this same date, I spoke with Inspector Thacker in the Protective Research Section, in an effort to determine whether or not Oswald’s movements and whereabouts on September 27 were known. Inspector Thacker informed me that Oswald’s movements between September 23rd and October 4th, 1963, were still not definitively established. He advised me that new information on his whereabouts during this period was arriving, and that perhaps he would shortly be able to furnish information as to Oswald’s whereabouts on September 27, 1963.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Denny Zartman

[Andrej Stancak]

Denny:

Lee's whereabouts on September 27, 1963 and a couple days around that day have been discussed in the recent book by Paul Blake Smith (a pseudonym?), "JFK and the Willard Hotel Plot".

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Willard-Hotel-Plot-Explosive/dp/163554128X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=willard+hotel+jfk&qid=1563809086&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Stephanie Goldberg]

17 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I don’t believe the interview was shared in a comprehensive manner. In fact, I had the impression that the interview was not recorded in any manner at all.

That's a shame.  Any interview of that type should be fully recorded (audio & video) if the interviewee consents.  Otherwise it's just a conversation.  

[Ron Bulman]

22 minutes ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

That's a shame.  Any interview of that type should be fully recorded (audio & video) if the interviewee consents.  Otherwise it's just a conversation.  

Kind of like Fritz's notes...

There is a resemblance between Michael and Lee.  But I have a tough time seeing Paine as a impersonator of LHO.  Between his blue blood east coast establishment lineage from the Cabot's and Forbe's and trust fund to his day job at stepdad's company Bell Helicopter and security clearance for it I'd think he was a level above such.  Maybe more of a facilitator. taking him to an ACLU meeting, helping set up Marina with Ruth, all the time not knowing why...

Hence the call, "We both know who..." 

[Denny Zartman]

20 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Denny:

Lee's whereabouts on September 27, 1963 and a couple days around that day have been discussed in the recent book by Paul Blake Smith (a pseudonym?), "JFK and the Willard Hotel Plot".

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Willard-Hotel-Plot-Explosive/dp/163554128X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=willard+hotel+jfk&qid=1563809086&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

Thanks for the tip, buying it now.