EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

 

52 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Makes sense John.   I'm fairly sure a trace was never even attempted, or if it was the report related to it is gone and buried....

Does the lack of follow-up mean they thought her serious and buried it or thought the story was about a crackpot caller... ??

From anyone outside the H&L world at the time the call sure would sound like a crank...  and only hold any meaning if it had a chance of being true, I'd think.

That's a definite possibility in your reply to John K.  It could also be that the SAC, New Haven had been kept informed from the New York offices on the general Lee Harvey Oswald situation.  The doc says he informed Dallas, New York, and Washington of the information in the teletype.  He also made sure Mr. Rosen, as assistant director was informed.  This says he thought what the Tippits told him was more than a crank call.

This response of the SAC, New Haven says he has an idea of what the importance of this information was.  Mention of Gardos and Weinstock tells him this has Internal Security- Russia implications.  He might even have been an older agent that could recall the late 40s and the McCarthy era and recall the congressional hearings to deport Gardos and Weinstock .

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

He might even have been an older agent that could recall the late 40s and the McCarthy era and recall the congressional hearings to deport Gardos and Weinstock

The earlier days of the CIA were dominated by OSS Military management. 

I tend to forget my own words and your great research (truly John, thx for your above and beyond to dig up backing to ur thinking) along with Steve Thomas Et al and the ASCI.  There are scores of names in the military who may have been involved which we may never know.

I still think we need to first conclude “real” or  “part of a CI plan” to CYA in a doppelgänger plan to get better assets into Russia.... pure OSS and the Military... Screams Dulles, Angleton and gang.... Far superior long term planning than most....  “they” do it, we need to fight fire with fire....

May even come out of what the Nazis learned about children... bringing us back to that 1941 report about Marge and Nazis....

[John Butler]

On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 10:20 AM, John Kowalski said:

John B:

Do you know what the earliest date that John A. has for Marguerite and Oswald been seen together? A lot of effort ha been expended examining Harvey's origins, have you attempted to locate Marguerite's origins?

John K,

I feel the need to apologize.  I'm not the sharpest knife in the set.  I misunderstood what you were saying here.  I'm was thinking Marguerite Claverie and you were talking about Mysterious Marge.  As far as I know David has provided the best answer on that.  She is pretty much an unknown except for the 1941 letter which I need to go back and reread.

David said,

"I still think we need to first conclude “real” or  “part of a CI plan” to CYA in a doppelgänger plan to get better assets into Russia.... pure OSS and the Military... Screams Dulles, Angleton and gang.... Far superior long term planning than most....  “they” do it, we need to fight fire with fire.... "  My apologies to David here I can't get this editor to quote properly a second time.

There is a treasure house of speculation here in this quote.  Back in those days the Chinese were said to have 100 year plans and the Russians had there 5 and 10 year plans.  So, I can very well see a group of OSS agents sitting around and discussing why didn't we have our long term plans.  The OSS became the CIA in something like 1947.  This is the time or slightly earlier that the whole Oswald Project was probably dreamed up through someone like David Phillips.  But, he didn't join the CIA until 1950.  His predecessors were most likely those mentioned by David.  Harvey and Lee info says this project was in operation before the advent of David Phillips.  He may have taken over supervision later.

Back to Mysterious Marge, this incident has gotten me to thinking what else have I been wrong headed on concerning Harvey Oswald.  A guy shouldn't really make these kind of open ended statements.  In the discussion of the Tippit letter, we assume, mainly because it is said and implied, that Gardos and Weinstock are dedicated communist agents out to overthrown the government of the US.  We are told this by the unknown caller and rubber stamped by the New Haven SAC. 

What if it wasn't so?  Think about that for a minute.  If Harvey Oswald's father is actually Emil Gardos as said, then Gardos and Weinstock would have to be working in league with the government to produce the Oswald Project.  I don't think anyone has ever mentioned that, at least as far as I know.

The idea that Emil Gardos is the father of Harvey Oswald may be correct in part or simply perceived to be correct.  Recent information has pretty much ruled out John Gardos as Harvey Oswald.  I still have nagging doubts, but lack the evidence to say it.  So, Emil's son could be another Hungarian boy acquired by Gardos and not John kept at that location. 

77th and 2nd Ave. may have been a safe house for this kind of activity.  I can't relate anything to it and it is not exactly a house but an area location.   It would have also been used for other communist activity.  I take it that the unknown caller was actually there and saw the what she described "THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS."

There are a number of things one can derive from this statement by the unknown caller.  Number 1 is that she was trusted by Gardos and Weinstock in order to be there an observe charts and maps.  Therefore, she must have been (in appearance) a dedicated communist.  Or, the 3 worked together and were familiar with each other.  This maybe one of the unconscious reasons I liked Elizabeth Bentley as a candidate for the unknown caller.  Mary Furhman would not have known this I believe.

As far as Gardos being the head of the communists, that may have some validity.  Certainly, he would not take the role as an open and public leader.  If Gardos was truly a NKVD agent then whatever he did would be of top importance to people like Gus Hall and other leaders proceeding Gus Hall.

I have suspected at various times that Emil Gardos may have been turned and became a government agent, perhaps FBI.  This line of speculation may point that out.  John Abt connects to Elizabeth Bentley.  Who was it that Harvey asked for as his defense attorney before he died?  John Abt, the communist lawyer for all the important communist groups and leaders in New York.  After supposedly battling the US government (FBI) for 16 years he voluntarily left for Hungary with wife Grace and son in 1948.  Louis Weinstock was also supposed to go also, but didn't.  He later on went to prison because he didn't leave like Gardos. 

The idea that the unknown caller knew Gardos and Weinstock is confirmed by what she said about the 77th Street and 2nd Ave. location.  She must have been there to see charts and maps.  This means she was trusted by Weinstock and Gardos.  She must have been a communist or prominent communist coordinator to do that.       

       

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

19 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Here's a couple things about China and Ekdahl....  his coming and going and then being in NY when "they" arrive.... the timeline betrays the lies of John and Robert related to the timeframe with Ekdahl.... where they were and where they lived....

David:

Where did you find the photos? Have been researching Eckdahl and found some records but no pics of his son. Research on his time in China could provide some interesting leads, if it can be found.

[John Kowalski]

18 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Does the lack of follow-up mean they thought her serious and buried it or thought the story was about a crackpot caller... ??

David:

Tina told me that when she spoke to the FBI on the phone the agent would stop the call and watch the TV as there was a football or other sporting event on, then go back tot he telephone and continue to speak to her. This FBI agent did not take call to seriously.

[John Kowalski]

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

77th and 2nd Ave. may have been a safe house for this kind of activity. 

John B:

Do you recall if anyone reviewed a city directory to see who lived there?

Found a book on Internet Archive called Clever Girl: Elizabeth Bentley, the Spy Who Ushered in the McCarthy Era by Lauren Kessler. In it she said that Bentley learned to use telephone booths when making calls as part of espionage tradecraft. Book also mentioned that when she met the FBI to report on someone the agent who interviewed her wondered by a New Yorker would travel to Connecticut to report on someone. This pattern of behavior is the same as the Tippit call. If it was her she was just doing things they way she did it in the past.

[David Josephs]

29 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Where did you find the photos?

They seem to all have come from the "findagrave" site...  I entered these search terms and all 5 or 6 pages came up first in the images list....https://www.google.com/search?q=Edwin+Ekdahl+Marriage+China&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS820US820&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiA2IW1yYboAhXQrJ4KHUVUDioQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1920&bih=937

 

Not sure if you're aware or not, but no divorce papers were ever found in Mass. for Rasmine and Edwin... (see SS report below)

"Edwin Ekdahl was a 55-year-old engineer, originally from Boston, who was working for Ebasco Services of New York City.(34) Ekdahl had separated from his wife (Rasmine Ekdahl) a year earlier and was working in New Orleans. The couple had one child, Dewey Ekdahl, who lived with his mother in Boston."

 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

John B:

Do you recall if anyone reviewed a city directory to see who lived there?

Found a book on Internet Archive called Clever Girl: Elizabeth Bentley, the Spy Who Ushered in the McCarthy Era by Lauren Kessler. In it she said that Bentley learned to use telephone booths when making calls as part of espionage tradecraft. Book also mentioned that when she met the FBI to report on someone the agent who interviewed her wondered by a New Yorker would travel to Connecticut to report on someone. This pattern of behavior is the same as the Tippit call. If it was her she was just doing things they way she did it in the past.

John K,

I haven't and would like to if such was available.  The book sounds interesting.  I did some looking and all I was able to come up with is this in the neighborhood of 77th Street and 2nd Ave:

And, for later in the text.

 

Helen Levi Simon Travis

Helen Levi.  Helen Levi Simon, alias Maxine Levi.  Helen Levi Travis.

The Tippit Phone Call document identifies the location 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave. as the location where the father and uncle of Lee Harvey Oswald lived.  The document does not identify an address which needs a building number.  So, this location covers East 77^th Street from 2^nd Ave. to 3^rd Ave. There is a significant number of people living on the average New York block. 

So, from the FBI document one should look for Harvey’s father and uncle in the years 1945-1947 in the area of 77^th and 2^nd Ave in NYC. Information from Harvey’s unknown family and Lee’s family is insufficient to establish any relationships to help identify Harvey Oswald’s origins.

If one takes a literal, unquestioning view of the document then the father and uncle of Harvey Oswald are not Emil Gardos and Fred Blair.  However, an alternative view does connect the uncle and father of Harvey Oswald to Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, and Fred Blair and the location 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave.  Information from a Gardos family member indicates that Emil and Grace Gardos were not the parents of Harvey Oswald.

The FBI document says the uncle and father were “Hungarians and Communists”.  So, a search for Hungarians and Communists in the location 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave. in the years prior to 1947-48 is logical.

From the book Communist Underground Printing and Illegal Propaganda:  Hearings…  we can find a number of Hungarian communists in that area and in areas close to 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave. in the years 1945-1947. 

The following Hungarian communists were living there during the years 1945-1947:

Helen Levi Simon- 350 East 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave.

Lou and Estelle Weber (real name Oringer)- 325 East 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave.

William and Sonia Arnett- 215 East 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave.

There are probably more, but not listed.  The dominant communist organization was the Yorkville Club.  This covered a district from 49^th Street to 96^th Street.  Its membership was 342 people.  A listing of its membership would be interesting.

I was not able to find any information for William and Sonia Arnett.  The parents of Louis Weber were Hungarians.  There is no information other then Census data on Louis and Estelle Weber.

However, there is information on Helen Levi.  Helen’s parents were German.  She married Abbott Simon in 1938.  Abbott’s parents were from a part of Poland that was a part of Russia.  They spoke Polish, Russian, and Yiddish.  Simon was involved in the 44 day strike in Flint, Michigan involving General Motors. Emil Gardos was also at this strike.  It may be that they met and knew each other.  But, overtime perhaps 150,000 people were involved.

Helen Levi Simon was a reporter for the Daily Worker during this time period.  It's possible she knew Weinstock and Gardos who at various times were associated with the newspaper.  Grace Gardos was also a reporter for the Daily Worker. 

The Daily Worker at it’s peak had a subscription of 35,000, but on average of about 17000.  How many papers were sold on the street is unknown.  Whatever, the number the Daily Worker was a small paper whose income was probably bolstered by the CPUSA and directly from Russia.  Morris Child in his activities as a Soviet agent delivered something like 28 million dollars from Moscow for CPUSA operations.

Helen was an active communist agent and probably knew all of the communist activities that went on at 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave.

PS

I have sworn off buying Kennedy books.  I have about 3 big boxes full.  But, I broke training to buy this book.  I'll let you know in several days if it was worth buying and if it has any good info.

Also, this about the Yorkville Club:

A short walk in New York.

The Yorkville Club was a communist organization at 350 East 80^th Street, NYC.  There membership was 342 members.  The Yorkville Club district for members had Yorkville stretching from 42^nd Street to 96^th Street, NYC.  The main copying machine for printing and copying communist material was located there.  This organization may have dealt with Hungrarian immigration after WWII.  This comes from the book Communist Underground printing and Illegal Propaganda- Congressional Hearings…

This information about the Yorkville Club comes from the period 1945-1947.  It lists several of its members.  I have chosen the ones that have an address on 77^th Street.

First off there is a mention of J. Peters in this record.  Sandor Goldberger alias Alexander Stevens alias Joseph Peter was an alleged agent of the NKVD along with Emil Gardos.

Edited March 6, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

John B:

Do you recall if anyone reviewed a city directory to see who lived there?

Found a book on Internet Archive called Clever Girl: Elizabeth Bentley, the Spy Who Ushered in the McCarthy Era by Lauren Kessler. In it she said that Bentley learned to use telephone booths when making calls as part of espionage tradecraft. Book also mentioned that when she met the FBI to report on someone the agent who interviewed her wondered by a New Yorker would travel to Connecticut to report on someone. This pattern of behavior is the same as the Tippit call. If it was her she was just doing things they way she did it in the past.

Elizabeth Bentley was a Connecticut lady.  She was born and died there.  When she left the FBI she returned to Conn. and taught school.  She was at the Longdale School, a reform school for girls.

It is really interesting that she would travel to Conn. to make her FBI reports.  I would think the FBI had her under constant surveillance even in her later life.

[John Butler]

Harvey, The European Immigrant

For many reasons, as listed on the Harvey and Lee site, Lee Harvey Oswald is believed to have had a double known as Harvey.  Harvey was believed to be a Hungarian refugee brought to the US directly after WW2.

 

This notion was strengthened by the Tippit phone call of Nov. 30, 1963.  An unknown caller said that Lee Harvey Oswald was the son of a Hungarian Communist, Emil Gardos.  Also mentioned was an unnamed brother in law and a Weinstock.  These people were said to be dedicated communists and leaders of the CPUSA in New York City.

 

First off one has to ask the question why were New York communists involved in raising Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin of President Kennedy?  Was this a disinformation tactic by the FBI to help frame Russia as involved with the assassination?  And, once this FBI teletype information developed was it abandoned as policy and the assassination story shifted? This probably was not the case if one looks at the revealing of the information in this secret FBI teletype.  This was a document given to the HSCA by the FBI.  It was not released publicly until 1993 by the ARRB.  This information was treated seriously by the FBI.

 

If Gardos, Weinstock, and brother in law, Fred Blair were not working for the interests of the Soviet Union, who were they working for in raising Harvey Oswald directly after WW2.  They must have done this for some time in New York since the unknown caller suggested this was done at a certain location. 

The answer to who can only be American intelligence agencies.  These probably were the OSS, later the CIA, the ONI, and with cooperation of the FBI.

 

From Harvey and Lee:

Frank Wisner and World War II Refugees

Frank Wisner was a Wall Street lawyer and during WW II worked for the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor of the CIA). After World War II ended thousands of Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under his supervision. National Security Council (NSC) records show that Wisner, the CIA's director of clandestine operations, oversaw the re-location of thousands of anti-Communist exiles to the United States as a means of rewarding them for conducting secret operations against the Soviets. Wisner became the CIA and State Department’s expert on European war refugees, and secretly subsidized the refugee relief organizations that brought these Eastern Bloc refugees to the United States throughout the 1940s and early 1950s.

Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA. DPC chairman Ugo Carusi sent a memorandum to all refugee organizations in the USA that read: “We would like to advise that the U.S. Commission [DPC] has a formal agreement with the CIA to cooperate in every possible way to facilitate their programs. It is, therefore, altogether desirable that local representatives of the voluntary agencies and State Commissions and Committees make available to fully identified CIA agents the addresses of displaced persons.”

This gives a good idea of how a Hungarian orphan was passed on to the New York communists who could only have been working for the government agencies listed.  When could this have happened?  I would suggest that Louis Weinstock was heavily involved and this happened prior to April, 1946.  The following information indicates why:

870 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ALIEN AND NATIONAL GROUPS

“Then we organized the New York Council of American Hungarians

for Democracy. I heard that organization mentioned as a Communist

organization. The gentleman had the courage of naming a few of

these physicians and others. Now, except this Komlos/ I don't think

any of them can be charged with communism. Even Komlos was one

of their directors of that organization; Eeverend Borshy was the

president of it. That was the Hungarian Relief. During those first

years after the war, they elected a few definitely Communist people,

for example, Weinstock.”

 

870 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN ALIEN AND NATIONAL GROUPS

“…Mr. L. Weinstock declares that the old board of directors cannot be absolved

without settling certain questions like that of the associate secretary. Dr. Mark

moves to absolve the board of directors ; Mr. Segedy seconds motion ; Mr. Revesz

amends motion to include the executive committee ; Mr. Lustig requests a vote

on the question of the associate secretary. Mr. Nadanyi moves that the decision

of the executive committee as 3 to 7 abolishing the position of the associate

secretary be accepted. A subsequent vote of 20 against, 10 approves the decision

of the executive committee and absolves the old board of directors. A secret

vote was then taken on Sir. Nadanyi's motion that no member of the Communist

Party can become a director of the American Hungarian Relief. Accepted by a

majority vote (20 for it, 8 against, 2 did not vote).

Louis Weinstock had been a member of the Executive Committee of the American Hungarian Relief program.  Prior to the time of April, 1946 is the time that Weinstock would have been contacted by a government agency.  And, sometime before that Weinstock and Gardos must have become informants for the FBI.  This time works well with the appearance of Harvey in Texas in the school year of 1947-48. 

Recent information from Gardos family members suggests that Emil Gardos’ son, John Gardos was not Harvey Oswald.  John Gardos went to Hungary with his parents, Emil and Grace, in 1948.  Emil Gardos went voluntarily and was not expelled or deported.  This suggests interesting notions about Emil Gardos. 

More than likely Harvey Oswald was a Hungarian refugee brought into this country by American intelligence agencies and delivered to Gardos and Weinstock to raise until such time as a long-term handler could be arranged.  This was none other than Mysterious Marge.  This handover to Marguerite Ekdahl occurred before July, 1947.  The 1946 time period works well with this.  Harvey was probably posed as the son of Emil Gardos since he was the same age as Emil’s son John, born in 1939.

Harvey was raised for a brief period of time by Gardos and Weinstock in the neighborhood of 77^th Street and Second Ave. in Yorkville, New York City.  David Josephs says this on the earliest date that Harvey could have appeared and it is in Texas, “On July 7 1947 "MARGUERITE EKDAHL" buys 101 San Saba while living at 1505 8th street.... but never lives there...”

This gives an outline of the way things could have happened.  Now we will turn to the possible identity of the Tippit’s unknown caller and the significance of the 77^th Street and 2^nd Ave. location.

Edited March 8, 2020 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

On 3/8/2020 at 12:39 PM, John Butler said:

Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA. DPC chairman Ugo Carusi sent a memorandum to all refugee organizations in the USA that read: “We would like to advise that the U.S. Commission [DPC] has a formal agreement with the CIA to cooperate in every possible way to facilitate their programs. It is, therefore, altogether desirable that local representatives of the voluntary agencies and State Commissions and Committees make available to fully identified CIA agents the addresses of displaced persons.”

John B:

They must have kept a list of names of all displaced people who emigrated to the US after the war. Maybe Harvey is on one of these lists, but if he is his name will not be Harvey.

[John Butler]

21 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

John B:

They must have kept a list of names of all displaced people who emigrated to the US after the war. Maybe Harvey is on one of these lists, but if he is his name will not be Harvey.

John K,

I don't know what Harvey's name was prior to being Harvey.  I think that is lost for all time.  That is unless someone left a death bed record.  I prefer Alek Hidell even though Russell's Richard Case Nagel says he is to author of that name.  I think that goes back further than Atsugi, Japan. 

How about this:

This is a well known letter.  But, I think it has not been looked at in this light.  Weinstock says, "and from time to time we shall call on you."  Not might, not maybe, not will, but shall call upon you.  I wonder if he did?  I don't think there is any record of a constant communication between Weinstock and Harvey.  But, they knew each other. 

Louis Weinstock was a long time communist.  He came to this country in the 1920s after the Bela Kun communist revolt failed in Hungary.  At about the same time as Emil Gardos and Sandor Goldberger.  He was a communist for over 70 years.  He was a dedicated, radical, allegiance swearing to the Soviet Union communist who worked constantly for the overthrow of the United States and to institute a socialist regime in the US.

How could such a good communist be considered as one of the founding members of the Oswald Project?  That's what the Tippit teletype implies.  Emil Gardos, Fred Blair, and Louis Weinstock knew and provided care for Lee Harvey Oswald at the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave.  This implies they were working for government intelligence agencies such as the OSS and perhaps the ONI because of Oswald and Ekdahl connection.  Certainly, the FBI and the New York Police Dept. was aware of this and helped cover it up from the beginning.  That's a little bold, but could be true.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

And, what about Fred Blair the long term radical communist from Milwaukee. He was the brother of Grace Gardos and the brother in law of Emil Gardos.  Why did he start his collection of letters between Grace and he with this letter dated the Feb. 28, 1971?  Where are all the other communications between Fred and Grace from 1948 to 1971?  Why start his historical collection of letters with this one.  What was he trying to say?

Information for your benefit                                  Milwaukee Feb. 28, 1971

 

Page 1

After 8 trips to Hungary and a 10 months stay in both city and villages I have all the information necessary to know everything about the Workers Paradise.  Starvation wages and highway robbery prices.  In Budapest an electrician wages are 10 forints an hour or 30 cents.  Other trades get 27 and 25 cents an hour.  A mine worker 17 hundred to 2 thousand forints a month and the poor people female slaves earn from 7 to 9 hundred forints a month.  Now make comparison in God’s Country.  An electrician makes 6 dollars an hour other trades 5 to 5:50 an hour.  Then a pension of 5 hundred dollars a month plus Social Security pension of 2 hundred dollars a month.  Now about the prices in Hungary  A worker is fortunate to buy a bycicle with a month’s wage.  Here a worker can buy one with a day’s wages.  All your merchandise including groceries, meats and wearing apparel are higher than in America.  I made a list of all these commodities and their prices in contrast to the prices we pay here.  The average American worker makes 20 times more in wages a month (at least) 3 to 6 hundred dollars a month.  234 minimum.  In Worker’s Paradise he averages 50 dollars a month and pays more for everything he buys.  I, as an upholsterer make $5.50 an hour 2 hundred and 20 dollars a week.  We can live like human beings and take a trip to Europe every year if I so desire, and live like a being.  No wonder there so much dissatisfaction and hatred everywhere I went, there is no joy in the land, nor song that comes from the heart, because they

Page 2

have nothing but misery and poverty.  No future, but Bureaucracy.  Ther daughters doomed to prostitution or suicide, the highest in Europe.  The days of Francis Joseph are no more, then there was song and laughter, and a way of life that the people found good.  Open up that barbed wire border.  Then there will be an exodus of slaves never before in history.  Anywhere just to get away from that living hell called Hungary.

I told them – you are all crazy paying such prices 75 cents for a dozen eggs.  We pay 35 to 45 cents 1.75 for a pound of meat.  We pay half that.  Cheap lousy shoes 12 dollars.  A case of beer 4 dollars – 120 forints 11 hours work.  In Milwaukee one hours work.  This is the formula for everything we buy.  Perhaps someday the awakening will come and rebell at these existing unbearable conditions.  Amen

Fred doesn't sound like a happy camper or happy communist.  Was he secretly a Christian rather than a good communist atheist?  Why end a letter with Amen?

Something is being said here that might be in accord with Fred Blair as a founding member of the Oswald Project. 

If John Gardos, Janos Gardos, the son of Emil Gardos is not Harvey Oswald then what are we left with?  Louis Weinstock and a young European immigrant, maybe an orphan, and perhaps a Hungarian posed as the son of Emil Gardos sometime during the period 1945-1947?  Maybe.  This idea will be developed further later. 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

18 hours ago, John Butler said:

Fred doesn't sound like a happy camper or happy communist.  Was he secretly a Christian rather than a good communist atheist?  Why end a letter with Amen?

Something is being said here that might be in accord with Fred Blair as a founding member of the Oswald Project. 

If John Gardos, Janos Gardos, the son of Emil Gardos is not Harvey Oswald then what are we left with?  Louis Weinstock and a young European immigrant, maybe an orphan, and perhaps a Hungarian posed as the son of Emil Gardos sometime during the period 1945-1947?  Maybe.  This idea will be developed further later. 

You make a good point about his communist sympathies, if he was a lifelong communist why all of the criticism of the socialist state and and I missed '"Amen." An odd word to by used by a communist. He may have started out as a communist but he may have become disillusioned with it as time went on. If he really did give up on it, then the question is when. In 1965 Hoover labeled his store a communist bookstore. This would imply that in the 60s that he is still loyal to the cause. For this reason I do not believe that he was not a good candidate for the Oswald project.

The fact that the Gardos returned to Hungary in 1948 also suggests that they were still loyal to the cause.

They are not good candidates for the Oswald project. The call was most likely another attempt to paint Oswald red.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/life/green-sheet/2017/01/17/milwaukee-bookstore-made-fbi-chief-see-red/96611154/

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

You make a good point about his communist sympathies, if he was a lifelong communist why all of the criticism of the socialist state and and I missed '"Amen." An odd word to by used by a communist. He may have started out as a communist but he may have become disillusioned with it as time went on. If he really did give up on it, then the question is when. In 1965 Hoover labeled his store a communist bookstore. This would imply that in the 60s that he is still loyal to the cause. For this reason I do not believe that he was not a good candidate for the Oswald project.

The fact that the Gardos returned to Hungary in 1948 also suggests that they were still loyal to the cause.

They are not good candidates for the Oswald project. The call was most likely another attempt to paint Oswald red.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/life/green-sheet/2017/01/17/milwaukee-bookstore-made-fbi-chief-see-red/96611154/

John K,

Could be.  However, persecution of informers and those who betrayed the communists would be a good way to bona fide those folks.  Fred was once tossed out of the communist party in Milwaukee and was reinstated.  Gardos wins a communist medal in Hungary.  The Gardos may have been sent to Hungary as spies.  Hungary had become communist.  We don't have enough information to say something either way. 

Remember the Solo Spy, Morris Childs.  He received a high award medal from the Soviets in the 70s or 80s.  Morris Childs new the Gardos.  He worked to bring Grace home in the 60s.  Morris and his brother Jack were kept under constant FBI surveillance to bolster their roles as good communists.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by John Butler