EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Jim Hargrove]

John K,

Very true observations.  It should be noted, though, that the two witnesses who remembered seeing her in Goldring's and Krieger's in New Orleans around 1960 were giving kind of a general indication of the dates, but it still must have been after the "defection."  I've looked at a number of the newspaper reports of the defection and don't recall if they were front page items or not.  I mostly remember that crazy mug shot of LHO published in Fort Worth where people might really recognize the difference between the two boys.

There may well have been people who questioned the Official Story of Marguerite and her commie son, but we just never heard about them.  Think of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses Mark Lane found who thought shots came from somewhere other than the TSBD.  If it wasn't for Mr. Lane, we probably wouldn't have known that the FBI lied about their recollections.  

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

During a phone conversation yesterday, John A. told me that he can't figure out where Harvey Oswald was living from 1947 to 1952.  We might therefore consider these years, rather than earlier ones, for Harvey living in NYC.  This, of course, opens up the possibility of brothers-in-law Emil Kardos as well as Emil Gardos while Harvey was in NYC.

 

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

David Joseph has where Harvey was well tracked and documented during this time period in this Excel timeline of Harvey and Lee.  His first record of Harvey is a school entry for July 7, 1947 at the Benbrook school in San Saba, TX.

I don't understand Mr. Armstrong's remark about not knowing where Harvey was living between 1947 and 1952.

John,

I've always found DJ's timeline to be VERY accurate, and so let's take another look at it.  Note that there is not a single entry for Harvey's school, city, or address from March 1948 until September 1952, when he enters Trinity Lutheran School in the Bronx, NYC.  This is the period John A. is talking about, and David pretty much confirms it.

[John Butler]

35 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

John,

I've always found DJ's timeline to be VERY accurate, and so let's take another look at it.  Note that there is not a single entry for Harvey's school, city, or address from March 1948 until September 1952, when he enters Trinity Lutheran School in the Bronx, NYC.  This is the period John A. is talking about, and David pretty much confirms it.

Totally missed that.  But, I assumed he was with Mysterious Marge during this period since he had been entered into school in July, 1947. 

It is difficult to reconcile where he was at if not with Mysterious Marge.  I agree that David's record is very accurate.  So, how would Harvey get back to NYC during this period if he was with Marge in Texas in 1947?  He couldn't have been placed with the Gardos in the years 1948 to 1952.  In 1948 Emil, Grace, and Louis Weinstock all applied for visas to go to Hungary.  Emil and Grace did leave for Hungary in 1948.  Louis stayed and eventually was punished for not going by be arrested and tried under the new communism laws.  He was eventually sent to prison.

Whoever the Tippit unknown caller was, she spoke of a time when Gardos, Blair, and Weinstock were in association planning the overthrow of the government with maps and charts.  This would have been prior to 1948.  And, in my opinion the time period is prior to November, 1945 perhaps stretching to 1943.  And, probably the other end stretching to 1947 until Truman's order on communists in government in March or until just a few months later. 

No info for Harvey and Mysterious Marge from 1948 to 1952 doesn't mean they went to NYC.  But, where were they?  New Orleans?  Some Lee info actually Harvey?  I trust David's judgement on this.  So, that's not up for consideration.  What then?  Harvey can't be placed with the Gardos in 1948.  They are on their way to Hungary. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

No info for Harvey and Mysterious Marge from 1948 to 1952 doesn't mean they went to NYC.  But, where were they?  New Orleans?  Some Lee info actually Harvey?  I trust David's judgement on this.  So, that's not up for consideration.  What then?  Harvey can't be placed with the Gardos in 1948.  They are on their way to Hungary. 

Thanks, John.  I had forgotten the details of the Emil Gardos timeline.

Now that I think about it, John A. and I were just talking just recently about where Harvey and his “mom” went after they left 101 San Saba in Benbrook.  Since they seemed to drop off the face of the earth for several years, John speculates that they may have moved into what was probably a CIA safehouse at  2220 Thomas Place, just across the street from Stripling School in Fort Worth.

Georgia Bell, who lived on San Saba for half a century, told John that a San Saba neighbor, Lucille Hubbard, “drove Mrs. Oswald to pick up some clothes from another house when she got a job as a nurse. Mrs. Hubbard confided to Georgia that Marguerite had furniture and lots of clothes stored at this house which was located ‘across from Stripling School.’"

Harvey and his “mom” again lived in 2220 Thomas Place in 1954, while Harvey attended Stripling School.  "Marguerite Oswald" was living in the same house at the time JFK was assassinated.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Now that I think about it, John A. and I were just talking just recently about where Harvey and his “mom” went after they left 101 San Saba in Benbrook.  Since they seemed to drop off the face of the earth for several years, John speculates that they may have moved into what was probably a CIA safehouse at  2220 Thomas Place, just across the street from Stripling School in Fort Worth.

Jim

In David's timeline is a reference for 2220 Thomas Place on March 19, 1948.  And, then nothing until 1952.  Generally, if there is nothing to report on then the time period entries would be left blank.  Or, if nothing could be found for those years then maybe a note saying such would be appropriate.

Maybe David will make a comment on that.  His input would be appreciated. 

I started another topic Heroes of the Kennedy Assassination Research.  I have this entry in a word doc which I haven't posted yet about John Armstrong and yourself.

John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove:  John Armstrong was the author of Harvey and Lee.  Jim Hargrove has been a major supporter and over the years kept the Harvey and Lee notion alive.

If that is not appropriate give me a heads up on what needs to be changed.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

John told me how much it bothered him that Jack White veered off on topics such as the fake moon landings, contrails, etc.  John felt Jack was just making it easier for critics to mock the H&L analysis and ignore the bulk of the evidence.

I don't think Jack White "veered off" at all.

The "moon landings were faked" people might justifiably complain about being associated with someone who helped to invent the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense. Jack White apparently believed that two young boys were selected for a long-term plot which required them to grow up to look identical a decade later, and that one of the identical boys just vanished into thin air immediately after the assassination. Oh, and that each boy had an identical mother, and that one of the identical mothers vanished into thin air immediately after the assassination too. Compared to that, the notion that someone faked the moon landings on a temporary film-set in the Arizona desert doesn't seem quite so crazy.

The "no planes crashed into the World Trade Center" people also might want to complain about being associated with someone who apparently believed that the identical long-term Oswald doppelganger who was buried in Fort Worth had not undergone a mastoidectomy despite solid medical evidence that he had, and that Jack White's fellow inventor of the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense knew about this problem but neglected to mention it, hoping that no-one would notice.

The problem isn't that people laugh at the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense because of Jack White's other paranoid fantasies. It's that people are liable to laugh at rational critics of the lone-nut theory because of the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense.

Even David Lifton finds the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense too nonsensical for his tastes. Does anyone know what Mr White's position was on the question of gunmen hiding in papier-mâché trees on the grassy knoll?
 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 2/19/2020 at 7:55 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

For the ninth time, now, will Mr. Bojczuk finally debate here the following issues? Or will he just say, as predicted in the title of this topic,  that someone else has successfully debunked these points and hide behind a flurry of links?  None of the issues below are debunked in any of the links Mr. Bojczuk provides above.

• For the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year,  one Oswald attended Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days while the other was enrolled in Public School 44 in New York City, where he was present for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days.
• For the next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas.
• One Oswald lost a front tooth during a fight at Beauregard JHS in the fall of 1954, but the Oswald exhumed decades later obviously had all his front teeth intact.
• The Social Security Administration did not include ANY of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” teen-aged employment income in his “Lifetime Earnings Report” indicating in a cover letter it was including “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.”
• One Oswald departed for Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit on Sept. 14, 1958 and was stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan on Oct. 6, 1958, at the very same time the other Oswald was being treated for venereal disease at Atsugi, Japan, nearly 1500 miles away.
• One Oswald appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans while the other was in the Soviet Union.
• One Oswald had a driver’s license and was seen by many witnesses driving a car, and the other Oswald could not drive.
• On November 22, 1963, one Oswald left the Texas School Book Depository on a bus and then a taxi, and the other left in a Nash Rambler.

Mr. Bojczuk repeatedly refuses to debate the above points, claiming only that someone else has debunked them.  If that were true, surely Mr. Bojczuk would be willing to summarize those debunkings in his own words here.  But he won’t.  He also ignores the evidence that as an adult, Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was 5’9’ tall while, also as an adult, American-born Lee Oswald was 5’11” and quite a bit heavier.

The missing front tooth is a particularly simple illustration of the differences between the two Oswalds. In the fall of 1954, Ed Voebel became acquainted with LEE Oswald after he witnessed him in a fight with Johnny and Mike Neumeyer (9th grade). The fight lasted a long time and was witnessed and remembered by several students at Beauregard. After the fight Voebel and two friends got some ice for (LEE) Oswald and attempted to patch him up. 

Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.
           --Warren Commission: Vol. 8, Page 3   

Voebel himself snapped the photo of Oswald and his missing tooth, which he eventually sold to LIFE magazine for $75.  

Of course, the 1981 exhumation photos clearly show that Classic Oswald® (Russian-speaking Harvey) had no missing front tooth.

Mr. Bojczuk simply ignores all the points I have raised above, and more, and tries to change the subject by asking me to point out discrepancies in a clearly corrupted photographic record.

The title of this thread is: "EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)" Of course, no one is obligated to follow my suggestions, but the inability of ANYONE to debunk right here the points I raised above speaks volumes.  All anyone can do is hide behind links, pretending someone else, somewhere else, has successfully debunked these issues.  They haven't. 

'Nuf said.

[John Kowalski]

18 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 Since they seemed to drop off the face of the earth for several years, John speculates that they may have moved into what was probably a CIA safehouse at  2220 Thomas Place, just across the street from Stripling School in Fort Worth.

A lack of records about them during this time period could indicate that the CIA decided to hide them form the world, unless of course they were sent out of the city to a remote location.  Did the neighbours report seeing any activity at 2220 Thomas Place from 1948-1952?

[John Butler]

59 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

A lack of records about them during this time period could indicate that the CIA decided to hide them form the world, unless of course they were sent out of the city to a remote location.  Did the neighbours report seeing any activity at 2220 Thomas Place from 1948-1952?

Good question John K,

David Josephs has the most complete info on this.  I'm waiting for him to respond.  I think he eventually will give us a clue, a direction.

Jim,

Definitely the teeth of Harvey not Lee.  There may be deniers of this, but they have no real ground to stand on concerning this factual evidence.

Edited April 15, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John A. told me that he searched the records of the elementary school Harvey would have attended if he lived at 2220 Thomas Place between ‘48 and ‘52 and found nothing.  This, of course, proves nothing since the FBI confiscated all the originals of “Lee Harvey Oswald's” school and teen-aged employment records within hours of the assassination.

As Joe Freeman at the ARRB discovered, all the originals are gone.

 

[David Josephs]

18 hours ago, John Butler said:

In David's timeline is a reference for 2220 Thomas Place on March 19, 1948.  And, then nothing until 1952.  Generally, if there is nothing to report on then the time period entries would be left blank.  Or, if nothing could be found for those years then maybe a note saying such would be appropriate.

Maybe David will make a comment on that.  His input would be appreciated. 

LOL.. Thanks for the kind words John/Jim...  I have been adding to the timeline so I will need to get you an update...  Be nice if POAGE would let me keep a copy there...(hint)

We have the fact there was ALSO A NOTE for a Harvey Oswald going to the HARRIS while Lee, I think, was the one with the punctured heel....
4029 BYERS is also very close by... It's very possible they just stayed at Thomas...  here's what John wrote:

In 1940 the duplex at 2220 Thomas Place was purchased by Edna Pendleton.
There were two apartments-one in the front (apt. "A"), and one in the rear (apt. "B").
In 1946 and 1947 Mrs. Rufie Cox occupied apartment "A," while Erwin and Velda
Schutz occupied apartment "B." From 1948 thru 1954 Mrs. Rufie Cox occupied apartment
"A," but there was no listing for anyone in apartment "B."

1948    7    19    HARVEY taken to Harris Hospital by Mr. Prestin "Allen"        Summer    Ft. Worth     2220 THOMAS PL / 4029 BYERS
1948    8    ??    FBI report claims Bell says Summer '48 for 3 months - MO and son        Summer    Benbrook    101 San Saba
 

52 minutes ago, John Butler said:

David Josephs has the most complete info on this.  I'm waiting for him to respond.  I think he eventually will give us a clue, a direction.

Let's look at this time frame...  early 1948 Marge moves to 3300 Willing after finding Edwin with another woman at the 8th street apt. 
Summer 1948 the FBI has Marge and son moving to San Saba BEFORE Ewing... claiming Bell said they only lived there a few months.

But we all know they were a year off...  John Pic's photos of Lee and Blackie are of 101 San Saba... despite his trying to lie about it in testimony.

That there is no listing for the "B" side from 1948-1952 is pretty telling - no?  

4029 BYERS is a 10 min walk from 2220 Thomas... and BIRCHMAN is 1.5 miles down the road.

Harvey could have attended Arlington Elementary (now South Hi Mount) after Lee leaves in summer '49...  but that's just a guess...

No records of Marge working and the infamous NANCY LEE and HARVEY are from Sept '47 thru June '48... then she gets crossed off and Marge Oswald becomes Marge Ekdahl
despite claiming she wanted her name back after the divorce... (why would school records CHANGE to a name she was not using?)

We must also remember that EDWIN would not have lived at San Saba... he was a NYC intellectual... BELL says Marge and son leave around Thanksgiving 1947... 
It MAY be possible that HARVEY is a few years younger and not yet going to school.. and when he finally does it's in a different grade than Lee... until after NYC and 1953...

My $.02
DJ

[David Josephs]

Here's a composite re: the Granbury house....

Based on the 2 sets of poles - telephone and electrical? - and that they lived off Granbury Route 45 (or 5??)

Pic and Robert O talk of the brick/stone house on Granbury in the middle of nowhere...  it's claimed the house was in an area flooded by the opening of Benbrook dam...
but I fail to see how given the few details we have.

(edit: you can see the top of a house to the right of the car)

Edited April 15, 2020 by David Josephs

[Jim Hargrove]

On 4/14/2020 at 4:04 PM, John Butler said:

I started another topic Heroes of the Kennedy Assassination Research.  I have this entry in a word doc which I haven't posted yet about John Armstrong and yourself.

John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove:  John Armstrong was the author of Harvey and Lee.  Jim Hargrove has been a major supporter and over the years kept the Harvey and Lee notion alive.

If that is not appropriate give me a heads up on what needs to be changed.

John,

I wasn’t sure how to react to this because I always thought this should be about the evidence and not the researchers, but you know in what high regard I hold john Armstrong’s work.  I’m really not a researcher, at least not beyond a few very limited matters I checked into at John’s suggestion.  I’ve always thought John’s work, for which he took ten years out of his normally lucrative businesses in the oil and custom home building businesses, was utterly heroic.

[Jim Hargrove]

21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

LOL.. Thanks for the kind words John/Jim...  I have been adding to the timeline so I will need to get you an update...  Be nice if POAGE would let me keep a copy there...(hint)

We have the fact there was ALSO A NOTE for a Harvey Oswald going to the HARRIS while Lee, I think, was the one with the punctured heel....
4029 BYERS is also very close by... It's very possible they just stayed at Thomas...  here's what John wrote:

In 1940 the duplex at 2220 Thomas Place was purchased by Edna Pendleton.
There were two apartments-one in the front (apt. "A"), and one in the rear (apt. "B").
In 1946 and 1947 Mrs. Rufie Cox occupied apartment "A," while Erwin and Velda
Schutz occupied apartment "B." From 1948 thru 1954 Mrs. Rufie Cox occupied apartment
"A," but there was no listing for anyone in apartment "B."

1948    7    19    HARVEY taken to Harris Hospital by Mr. Prestin "Allen"        Summer    Ft. Worth     2220 THOMAS PL / 4029 BYERS
1948    8    ??    FBI report claims Bell says Summer '48 for 3 months - MO and son        Summer    Benbrook    101 San Saba
 

Let's look at this time frame...  early 1948 Marge moves to 3300 Willing after finding Edwin with another woman at the 8th street apt. 
Summer 1948 the FBI has Marge and son moving to San Saba BEFORE Ewing... claiming Bell said they only lived there a few months.

But we all know they were a year off...  John Pic's photos of Lee and Blackie are of 101 San Saba... despite his trying to lie about it in testimony.

That there is no listing for the "B" side from 1948-1952 is pretty telling - no?  

4029 BYERS is a 10 min walk from 2220 Thomas... and BIRCHMAN is 1.5 miles down the road.

Harvey could have attended Arlington Elementary (now South Hi Mount) after Lee leaves in summer '49...  but that's just a guess...

No records of Marge working and the infamous NANCY LEE and HARVEY are from Sept '47 thru June '48... then she gets crossed off and Marge Oswald becomes Marge Ekdahl
despite claiming she wanted her name back after the divorce... (why would school records CHANGE to a name she was not using?)

We must also remember that EDWIN would not have lived at San Saba... he was a NYC intellectual... BELL says Marge and son leave around Thanksgiving 1947... 
It MAY be possible that HARVEY is a few years younger and not yet going to school.. and when he finally does it's in a different grade than Lee... until after NYC and 1953...

My $.02
DJ

David,

Please include me in the list of people to send your updated timeline whenever you’re ready.   It’s a valuable resource.

It certainly does seem relevant that no occupants are listed for the back of the duplex at 2220 Thomas Place for the years 1948 to 1954.  This is doubly interesting not only for the period dating back to 1948 that we were discussing, but also for the fall of 1954, when Harvey attended Stripling School right across the street from 2220 Thomas Place.

In 1954, Fran Schubert watched Harvey walk across the street from Stripling to the Thomas Place duplex.  Her YouTube interview with John A. is here.

What’s funny is that WC apologists have to deny LHO ever attended Stripling, even though there must be at least a half dozen different newspaper articles saying he did attend the school.  Equally funny is the wild disagreement in the articles on exactly when he attended the school, explained by the fact that assistant principal Frank Kudlaty surrendered the files to the FBI before they were archived, and so there is no formal record.  It was always, though, common knowledge among staff and students.

Frank Kudlaty’s interview is here.

[John Kowalski]

David:

What sources of information would be available for Harvey for the period 1948-1952?

School records would be one source but the FBI took them. Harvey was too young to work, so there will be no employment records. Telephone book and a city directory but there is no listing for who lived in the back from 1948 to 1954. That would leave eyewitness testimony form neighbours who saw him or people who would have attended school with Harvey during this time period. Was the person who lived in the front of the house during this time period and attended the school he would have attended interviewed?

Can you send me your updated timeline when it is completed.