Bonnie Ray Williams

[James DiEugenio]

Has anyone ever explained his differing statements at different times?

The first day he did not say he was on the sixth floor at all.

The second day he did. And then as time went on he was there both later and longer.

Its odd since his story got worse and worse for the Warren Commission.  The contrary of what usually happened.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Has anyone ever explained his differing statements at different times?

The first day he did not say he was on the sixth floor at all.

The second day he did. And then as time went on he was there both later and longer.

Its odd since his story got worse and worse for the Warren Commission.  The contrary of what usually happened.

He was...scared? The proof he was scared, IMO, is that he initially said he'd heard but two shots, and that he eventually caved in and said the last two were bang bang. Neither scenario fit the Oswald-did-it scenario, of course, but the Warren Commission was not about to let the closest witness to the sniper's nest window to make a statement on the 22nd say he'd heard but two shots, without subsequently making a retraction of sorts. So he did, of sorts. 

[David Josephs]

He is also the only person who can be placed in the SE corner of the 6th floor within 15 minutes of the shooting.... where the rifle is found and Truly denies the FBI taking finger prints of the employees...  and given his testimony - there would be not available time for anyone to get up to the 6th floor, assemble the rifle, and be ready AFTER 12:15 when by all indication JFK would be passing by between noon and 12:15...  If Oswald has to get to his spot and assemble the rifle he has precious little time to do so... 

In fact, I feel this precludes his assembling the rifle at all, and that we MUST spend some time determining who placed that rifle there.... 
If not Ozzie - who?

----

As I elude to in one of my papers... after the first shot - IF and only IF the shot is 12-15 feet above their heads - these 3 men wouldn't have been able to hear anything let alone the "clink" of shells or the working of a bolt...

"The National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders (NIDCD) says hearing damage occurs with noises of 85 dB or louder. Higher caliber guns produce a louder sound than their small caliber cousins; however, any shot fired next to an unprotected ear can be damaging. According to USA Carry, a .32 LONG fires a 152.4 decibel (dB) blast while a .44 S&W Magnum blast registers 164.5 dB."

 

 

 

I also think that EUINS mentions the muzzle sticking well outside the window...

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out.
Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether?
Mr. EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, if you remember?
Mr. EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity.

 

[John Butler]

Jim E,

I tried to on several occasions without much success.  Bonnie Williams originally said he heard two shots as the president's limo turned onto Houston St. from Main St.  This did not make the FBI happy.  He had to make, in all, four statements clarifying the various things in these statements the FBI didn't like.  He made FBI statements until he got it right.

There is another concern about the shooting out of the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.  9 out of 11 witnesses who were the closet to that window said they heard shots coming from some other place than the 6th floor window.  Originally, that was 8 out of 11, but Junior Jarman changed his testimony when asked by Gerald Ford to hearing shots coming from low and to the left.  This was the same direction as said by Elsie Dorman.  Most of the other heard shooting coming from the west towards the underpass or Grassy Knoll.

Because of this testimony from this group of witnesses you can not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone fired a shot from the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.

Edited December 11, 2019 by John Butler

[Pat Speer]

Let's be clear: Bonnie Ray DID NOT say he heard two shots AS the limo turned onto Houston. He said he saw the limo turn onto Houston. shortly after he'd arrived on the fifth floor.  He then mentioned hearing two shots. He then mentioned running to the west side of the building. These are three isolated incidents, following in chronological order, but not necessarily directly following each other. We should also keep in mind that the initial affidavits were prepared with assistance, that is, there were policemen and Sheriff's office personnel available to help the witnesses organize and simplify their statements. That is why none of the original statements said anything like "Oh my God, this is the worst thing I've ever seen! Poor Jackie!" Or "I hope they catch the evil bastards that did this!" 

From patspeer.com chapter 8:

Bonnie Ray Williams (11-22-63 affidavit to Dallas County, 24H229) “Just after we got on the fifth floor we saw the President coming around the corner on Houston from Main Street.  I heard 2 shots it sounded like they come from just above us. We ran to the west side of the building.” (11-23-63 FBI report, CD5 p330-333) “At approximately 12 noon, Williams went back upstairs to the sixth floor in the elevator with his lunch. He stayed on that floor only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one there, descended to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. There he joined two other men known to him as Hank and Junior. They were looking out windows on the south side of the building approximately at the middle of the building and saw the car of President John Kennedy come north on Houston Street and then make a turn going west on Elm Street down into the triple underpass directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository. While they were watching this car pass, Williams heard two shots which sounded like they came from right over his head…He stated he and the other two men ran to the west end of the building where they looked out and they did not realize the President had been shot.” (12-7-63 Secret Service Report based on interviews conducted between 12-2 and 12-5, CD87 p784) " he can recall having heard only two shots.  He felt that the shots came from the sixth floor but he did not hear the shells fall to the floor nor did he hear the bolt action of the rifle." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H681) "As the presidential motorcade passed by the building on Elm Street below I heard three shots which sounded like they came from directly above me. At first I thought the noises I heard were firecrackers. I looked up when little pieces of cement hit me on the head, but saw no one. I did not know that President John F. Kennedy had been shot. When I saw all of the confusion on the street below I ran to the west end of the building to get a better view. Hank and Junior who were on the floor with me also ran to the west end of the building." 

(3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H161-184) “After the President’s car the last thing I remember seeing him do, you know—it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a a loud shot—first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a motorcycle backfire.  The first shot—there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember…the first shot—I really did not pay much attention to it, because I  did not know what was happening. The second shot it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded—it even shook the building…Harold was sitting next to me...He said it came directly over our heads...I can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor...I heard three shots, but at first I told the FBI I only heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well.  But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22nd. I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.” (Interview with CBS, broadcast 9-27-64) "The last thing I saw the President do was push his hair back, and the only comments made about the President were that his tan was beautiful, and also that his health was looking good that day." (On what happened after people started falling on the ground) "So we said, “Well, somebody’s shooting at the President.” And then—at first we didn’t believe it, because it just seemed so untrue, you know—and then the other fellow, Harold Norman, said, “Yes, I believe he’s been shot at...Jim Jarman said I had this cement in my hair, and that he saw a gun, you know. So it was caused by some kind of sound or something that shook the old building to make this fall down into my hair. And therefore we decided this came from the sixth floor, because the only floor above us was the sixth floor. ”  (Interview with CBS broadcast on 6-25-67, additional portions broadcast in 1992) “When the President came around, we remember seeing him standing up and waving. And then when he turned to go down Elm Street we heard a shot and we saw the President slump. And then after we saw him slump, we said--I think one guy, I don't remember which one it was-- said "I believe they're shooting at the President and I believe it came from right up over us."...Prior to that we’d decided they were firecrackers and everything, y'know.” (When asked how many shots) “I heard three. The first and the second were further apart than the second and the third. In other words there was a bang and a bang-bang.” (7-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral history of assassination witness John Templin) (When asked if he ever discussed the assassination with other eyewitnesses) "Over the years, I have. I met a gentleman named Williams. No, Bonnie Ray Williams was his name. Bonnie worked here at the building. I met him at General Motors, parts depot, after I started driving for Merchant’s Freight Lines here in Dallas and had some conversation with him. And Bonnie Ray, he was always... he was scared because so many people had died that had anything to do with that thing mysteriously. And he was a little bit leery all the time about it...He really didn’t offer anything other than he was here, and he was on the fifth floor. And that’s about it. He didn’t elaborate on it that much."

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Pat Speer

[John Butler]

What Bonnie Ray said:

11-22-63- At the Sheriff’s office: “After we got on the 5^th floor we saw the President coming around the corner on Houston Street from Main Street.  I heard two shots that sounded if they came from just above us.”

If you can’t connect these two sentences you can’t connect anything said by anybody anywhere at any time.

11-23-63- FBI report: “While they were watching this car pass, Williams heard two shots…”

1-14-64- FBI report: “He said around 12:30 P. M. while they were watching the Presidential parade, they heard some shooting and ran down the west steps to the fourth floor…”

3-19-64- FBI report: “As the presidential motorcade passed by the building on Elm Street below I heard 3 shots which sounded like they came from directly above me.”

3-24-64:  Warren Commission: “The first shot- there was two shots together rather close together.  The second and third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember.

[Ron Bulman]

I thought we went through this fairly recently on another thread.  But the point should be made for anyone new.  Williams was a poor Black man in Dallas in 1963.  The DPD was largely comprised at the time of KKK members.  He didn't want to disappear of have an accident, he tried to say what he was told, but he was pretty nervous, thus all over the pace.

[John Butler]

The FBI 302 reporting system is one of the most corrupt tools the FBI uses.  I found this on the internet and it says basically what I think about the FBI's reporting of witness interrogations.  Bonnie Ray Williams had to change his testimony several times to make the FBI happy.  Why did Williams change his testimony?  It was pretty much as Ron Bulman says.

"What are the problems with the 302?

 

This is a system for conducting interviews that the FBI has used throughout it's history...before video recorders even existed.

 

Sara Kropf, from Grand Jury Target, explains the basics...

 

FBI form FD-302 has space to list the name of the agents, the date of the interview, the name of the interviewee, the place of the interview and so forth. Then it allows the agent to draft a memo—in paragraph form—of what the witness said. It can be one page long or twenty pages long, depending on the length of the interview.

 

The memo section of a 302 is the key part. This is a combination of what the agent was able to write down during the interview and his recollection. It may list the questions and the answers or simply be a narrative of what the witness said.

 

The witness generally doesn’t see the 302 or get a chance to correct any mistakes he thinks are in it before it is finalized.

What is an FBI 302? The Problematic Nature of FBI Agents’ Interview Memos

 

This last point is key, as you're going to read about through the rest of this blog.

How it works in person follows:

 

The process is thus: two FBI agents ask questions and listen to the answers—without tape recording or obtaining a certified transcript. Instead, they return to their office and, based on their recollection and any notes they may have taken during the interview, write up a summary of what transpired. Summaries are, in most cases, written hours later, sometimes even the following day.

FBI’s Amazing Trick to Avoid Accountability

 

Harvey Silverglate (see the 3 Felonies A Day meme, this is Silverglate's baby) points out the bottom line of the process.

 

Without an objectively accurate, verbatim record of the interview, the witness is compelled, forced even, to follow the script of the 302 report if it is presented in a court of law

Silverglate, 2014, DOJ's New Recording Policy: The Exceptions Swallow The Rule

 

There was a change in policy in 2014, however, the "change" left many loopholes...Silverglate explains that more at the link.

What are the problems with the 302?

 

Kropf summarizes some basic problems that would interfere with justice, even before we start talking about issues of State corruption:

• People talk faster than a human recorder can understand, write, and summarize

• Memos created on memory are not reliable

• Summarizing is hard for many reasons. Conversations meander from topic to topic. It's the nature of human speech. Witnesses blather on while answering or don’t even answer the question directly. They don’t understand the question or they answer a different question. And that is assuming the witness is NOT evading questions (cough, cough, Clinton)

• There’s no requirement that the FBI agent write down everything the witness says or that the agent take any notes at all...nothing to prevent the agent from stopping the note-taking if the witness says something helpful to the target of the investigation. It is practically impossible to obtain the handwritten notes underlying a 302 during discovery, so the FBI is not worried that anyone can prove a conflict between the handwritten notes and the final 302 anyway.
  What is an FBI 302? The Problematic Nature of FBI Agents’ Interview

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Butler

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Bonnie Ray Williams and his two friends along with the other black witnesses were asked during their depositions by Gerry Ford or Allen Dulles if they had ever been in trouble with the law before. message was received..... 

[Andrej Stancak]

One thing which is difficult to conceive is that Bonnie Ray Williams should be on the sixth floor around 12:15 PM which was the time when Arnold Rowland saw a slender man with a gun through a semi-open sixth-floor window in the western part of the building. The man Rowland had seen allegedly stood about 15 feet from the window. Bonnie Ray Williams had to see that man. There was an alley along all south-wall windows and it was possible to see through the space adjacent to every of the south windows from any two south corners or windows. If Bonnie Ray Williams sat there and had his lunch remains of which were found on a box at the south-east window, there could be no one standing close to the south wall without being seen by Bonnie Ray Williams. So, how could Bonnie Ray Williams not see the man Arnold Rowland saw? Of course, the same logic applies to anyone allegedly standing in the "nest" at the first south-east window, a person standing that close to Bonnie Ray Williams would have to be spotted by him.

[B. A. Copeland]

On 12/11/2019 at 2:33 AM, Pat Speer said:

He was...scared? The proof he was scared, IMO, is that he initially said he'd heard but two shots, and that he eventually caved in and said the last two were bang bang. 

Scared of what exactly?

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Scared of what exactly?

White cops.

[B. A. Copeland]

 

18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

White cops.

I see. thanks Ron.

Edited December 17, 2019 by B. A. Copeland