The Beckley Bunch

[Ed LeDoux]

On 2/8/2020 at 9:13 AM, Gene Kelly said:

Ed

FWIW, I think you've laid out a compelling set of facts that show the N. Beckley legend is just that ... invented for purposes of obfuscation.  Whenever I see squabbles about fact versus opinion, it creates a red flag.  Further,  I wouldn't much trust anything written on the part of the DPD (or FBI) ... in fact, for the gravity of what had happened, the DPD paper trail is extraordinary for it's poorly-documented interrogation of Oswald and initial investigation.  More prominent for what's left out than what's included.  And labored over by a multitude of earnest serious researchers for 50 years. Then, there is this odd pattern of LHO going on trips, coming back to stay at YMCA's (with a wife and child), and then renting rooming houses.  And you've pointed out something that wasn't obvious to me ... that Mary Bledsoe's house was hardly a "rooming house". Your description of Oswald's initial movements is priceless:

They take away Oswald's movie alibi and insert a ridiculous dash to buses, cabs, rooming houses, yet moments of time suspended while Mr Lee waits at an inbound bus stop, then a dash through Oak Cliff to again, slowly stroll the wrong way whilst being stopped by a policeman, a shooting, more dashing through alleys or was it down Jefferson. Anyways, the suspect dashes all the way down a major thoroughfare only to duck into a alcove, where the store manager gets suspicious and dashes after this man, who ducks into a theater unseen by the ticket seller or ticket taker. Calls to police about the malicious movie goer make cops dash into the theater and go straight up to the balcony, all the while the shoe store manager is hiding behind the curtains watching the cops in the balcony... nothing is said by the shoe store manager - as one suspect is being questioned up on the balcony steps - he stays hidden and quiet . When cops enter the stage door the shoe store manager still doesn't say who is the man ... the cops start frisking everyone. Only when Oswald gets his crotch grabbed by a policeman and knocks his hat off does a melee ensue. Later the policemen says a different man in the front row, and not the overpaid shoe salesman as whom pointed out Oswald as the man they wanted.

Cheers,

Gene

 

Thanks Gene, 

Here is a tid bit on the evidence,

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1816#

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said:

Thanks Gene, 

Here is a tid bit on the evidence,

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1816#

Ah yes.

Thanks to uncle Malcolm.

[Ed LeDoux]

20 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Ah yes.

Thanks to uncle Malcolm.

Also with Bart's and Malcolm's help,

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1807

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1808

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1809

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1810

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1811

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1812

https://servimg.com/view/19524087/1813

Note the lunch meat went into the room at night and was gone the next day... for a meal or a sandwich for work?

2+ miles is not "close to work" at the TSBD.
More like the Trinity Flooring store.

Odd Gladys saying she 'Hears the Shots and then sirens' from Young Street 8 blocks from Dealey plaza. (not 15)

Again, no calls were received about reservations or open rooms... so sad for Roe's only hope,...
inquiry was in person & signage based.

Cheers,
Ed

 

[Gene Kelly]

Fascinating stuff Ed and Bart ... Amy Gladys Johnson and Earleen Roberts (never knew the distinctions between those two individuals).  One resided in and managed the rooming house, versus the other who owned and operated it.  Interesting that she says "FBI agents were all over the place" ... and when she stated no one lived here by that name, they said that they "knew better".   And he never had any family with him while staying there for 6 weeks ... so strange.  A little room, all to himself (close to work?). First that I had heard of the map he drew.  As the say, the devil's in the details. 

[Ed LeDoux]

Yes Gene It is fascinating how when examined these fable stories fall apart at the seams.

The closest the Johnson's and Earlene got to a Police Lineup was the television images. 

There is the problem as to FBI agents. I dont believe there were any at the Beckley search. Plain clothes detectives of Fritzs are hard to confuse with FBI. The cops "knew better" as they had their patsy framed for maximum effect.

Odd they knew Oswald lived there yet do not get a search warrant for LHO or even OH LEE.

Yes a new baby etc, yet no visits by family or friends... even though its was claimed a Russian speaking man knew to call and ask for Mr. Lee (wink wink)

What a joke, joke on us for 50+ years

Time to see what holds up to scrutiny 

What makes sense, what is natural and logical.

Apply this to the stories and evidence. The results are Lee was framed by the police and FBI and robbed of his alibi in both murder cases, JFK & Tippit.

The map is another bit that needs examined.

"Ruth said she gave him the map on Oct 7 for finding his way looking for work - no mention of using it to find his way to boarding houses! He finds Bledsoe's non-boarding house all by himself, we are led to believe.
Michael here generally avoids any direct answers though finally admitting to marking the Paine residence. Saying he put that there, but it was prior to September '62 when he moved out."

Mr. PAINE - This is the kind of map that I always used, stopping in stations when I am out of one so I always have one in my car, and when the FBI showed me this particular map, which I trust is the same one I looked at before. I found on the back side a mark where it shows the whole map of the whole area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a little mark where our house is, that is the kind of mark that I would make when I was trying to buy some land earlier and had in mind for a long time and I wanted to find the location that was accessible to the places I would then want to go.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us--
Mr. PAINE - This mark is still here.
Representative Form. This is the mark or can you identify that mark that you placed on this map?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, I think I see a mark here of the sort which looks reasonable to me. I think it is the only mark on this side of the map. Generally, I didn't make marks on the other side of the map.
Mr. LIEBELER - In your statement referring to one side of the map you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire Fort Worth-Dallas area, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you say as best you can see there is only one mark on this side of the map?
Mr. PAINE - That is the only one that is here, that I remember having found. I don't remember finding another one.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember putting that mark on the map?
Mr. PAINE - I remember putting--I think I put this kind of mark on more than one map. That is our house. It then helps locate it with regard to all the arteries and what not that lead to various places.
Mr. LIEBELER - You do think then it is probable that you did place the mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in Irving, Tex.; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE - Yes, I think that is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether or not Oswald ever came into possession of this map?
Mr. PAINE - And Ruth gave Oswald a map to--she told me she gave him a map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him when he was searching for a job.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember any other conversations with your wife about the map before the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't believe she told me she had given him the map. I don't believe we discussed it at all.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you open the map to the portion that shows the area of Dallas. I call your attention to a mark at the intersection of Boll Street and San Jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of placing that mark on the map?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't have any recollection of placing that mark on the map.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember any circumstances that might make it likely that you placed that mark on the map?
Mr. PAINE - I could have placed that mark on the map when I was looking for properties. I went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas that I was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so they sent it out late on Saturday, short of 12 o'clock, and just short of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near that address.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is that the L. L. Ridgway Co.?
Mr. PAINE - Yes. That is the company that I am referring to. I don't know exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER - But it is near the intersection we have just referred to?
Mr. PAINE - I will take your word for that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know that it is?
Mr. PAINE - No, I don't know. I think the FBI man said it was. 1 hadn't looked into it and didn't check it.
Mr. LIEBELER - You haven't any knowledge at this point whether the Ridgway company is in this intersection or not?
Mr. PAINE - I remember it is right beside the expressway and in about that area. I don't remember the names of the roads.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at Boil and San Jacinto Streets?
Mr. PAINE - I remember in asking the clerk where it was, and I had a map of this sort, that was also in August when I was looking for places. I would have guessed I would not. I would have been able to see where it was and know in my mind where I wanted to go.
Mr. DULLES - Is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map?
Mr. PAINE - It is a different mark. That mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house. So I made a little square that I can see and indicate a house rather than--generally I don't make marks on maps. I look up where I want to go and I go.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did your wife tell you when she had given this map to Oswald?
Mr. PAINE - I suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and started looking for work.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you said it was August of 1963 when you were looking to find this reproduction place; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE - That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - I call your attention to a mark on Hillcrest and Asbury, and I ask you if you put that mark on the map?
Mr. PAINE - I don't recall making that mark. I think it is different from the other mark, and it is--if I were to make a mark that is more the way I would make a mark. It also happens to be the cafeteria where I like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and it is a very good meal. So I would be interested in that, in locating it. Here is one of the places where I was thinking of buying property.
Mr. DULLES - Is there a mark there at that place where you were interested in buying property?
Mr. PAINE - I don't think there is. I almost guessed that I didn't have that map at that time. Also I was not living--I would guess for a further reason that I would not have this map on the time of that August date was because I hadn't been living--I had been living in this apartment, and I had a map over there, and I probably didn't have the same map that Ruth had around her house.
Mr. LIEBELER - So you think it is probably likely you didn't place any marks on that map other than the one indicating your home?
Mr. PAINE - That is correct. In other words, I think that mark was placed there quite a long time back, because I have been interested in this locating of property for several years.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is the mark at the Hillcrest Avenue spot, a mark of the type that you usually make?
Mr. PAINE - And, as I say, I don't usually make a mark, but I think I might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the others--somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which are not the kind I would make.
Mr. LIEBELER - In reviewing this map with the FBI, were there any other marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map other than the ones we have discussed?
Mr. PAINE - I don't now remember any others. This one of the cafeteria there is not exactly at the right spot.
Mr. LIEBELER - The mark at Hillcrest Avenue?
Mr. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - As you look at the map now do you see any other marks which you think you might have put on the map?
Mr. PAINE - No. We went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he having located most of the marks he could find on the map--no, I guess it was still marked up like this. We didn't find anything that I can remember there that I might have put on there.

This wins The Soup Sandwich of Warren Commission testimony award... and there was serious competition.

Either way it was Michael Paine's map 

Supposedly Lee left a map at Mary Bledsoe's place.

Bledsoe threw it out.

Then I believe there is no evidence Lee looked for work from Oct 7 and Oct 14 thus no need for a map to find employment locations in that period.

Ruth either gave him this second one on Oct 14 before dropping him off in Dallas again - pre-marked by Michael Paine .

Perhaps it was taken from Irving by the cops and "found" at N Beckley.

Odd a man with a MAP doesn't know North from South Beckley. Just how did he find the house?

& Was this incriminating map with bullet trajectories fingerprinted? TIA

I appreciate your reply Gene.

Cheers, Ed

[Andrej Stancak]

Well, shall we now consider the fallacy of 1026 North Beckley as Oswald's address after his return to Dallas in October as a proven fact? Shall we quote this thread as an ultimate proof of 57 years of false belief pertaining Lee Oswald's rooming house? 

 

What is the one killer fact, the ultimate proof, that would convince all researchers, LNs or CTs, that Lee Oswald did not stay in that rooming house after his return to Dallas?

Is there any other address which was pointed out  by more than one reliable witness to be Lee Oswald's site of residence?

Is there any other supporting fact (e.g., any document of relevance bearing the name of Lee Oswald and another Dallas address in October-November, 1963) converging independently on some other address than 1026 North Beckley?

Was Lee's positive statements he told the interrogators about living in 1026 North Beckley false? How could he invent that address? Or, did he say he had lived somewhere else and Cpt. Fritz just changed that address to 1026 North Beckley? 

Did the Police invent the fake address of 1026 North Beckley right after capturing Lee Oswald and raided his other residence to stage his belongings at 1026 North Beckley? Or, did they have this address in their sleeves and knew they needed to stage 1026 North Beckley already before the assassination?

 

Is absence of a photograph of Lee's room with Lee belongings in it a proof that the Police had planted his belongings to that small room in 1026 North Beckley? Or, is it rather a proof of a sloppy detective work? 

There are a number of puzzling points which do raise questions about Lee Oswald's whereabouts, however, they appear to result from misunderstanding, honest errors, poor investigation, lack of proper documentation and of course, from urgency to convict Lee Oswald as a killer, and also from active framing accomplished by several people. If Lt. Jack Revill wrote 602 Elsbeth as Lee Oswald's address, it raises a red flag because this address was almost identical with the address at which Lee and Marina lived before moving to Neeley Street - only, how could Revill know about Elsbeth address if a different address was in Roy Truly's records and it was not 1026 North Beckley either.

It may be prudent to try to answer the questions listed on top of my post and only accept refutation of 1026 North Beckley address if these questions can be answered without a shadow of doubt.

I would also recommend to answer points with clear and not too lengthy posts and to avoid mentioning some further hints which only distract from understanding the answer to essential questions.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Andrej Stancak

[Ed LeDoux]

Yes we should re-examine it in a new light.

Any questions 

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Well, shall we now consider the fallacy of 1026 North Beckley as Oswald's address after his return to Dallas in October as a proven fact? Shall we quote this thread as an ultimate proof of 57 years of false belief pertaining Lee Oswald's rooming house? 

THE EVIDENCE SAYS THERE WAS NOTHING TO SUPPORT THE NOTIONS, AND PLENTY TO DISMISS IT.

What is the one killer fact, the ultimate proof, that would convince all researchers, LNs or CTs, that Lee Oswald did not stay in that rooming house after his return to Dallas?

No physical evidence or witnesses.

That is beyond enough if it was the other way around.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Is there any other address which was pointed out  by more than one reliable witness to be Lee Oswald's site of residence?

Again I do not have to prove anything other than Beckley is a false address.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Is there any other supporting fact (e.g., any document of relevance bearing the name of Lee Oswald and another Dallas address in October-November, 1963) converging independently on some other address than 1026 North Beckley?

What address was the washing machine for?

Which addresses did Ruth help Oswald locate.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Was Lee's positive statements he told the interrogators about living in 1026 North Beckley false?

Given the evidence in this thread, Yes.

He did not give positive statements.

It was the DPD giving false information.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

How could he invent that address?

Will Fritz is your inventor.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Or, did he say he had lived somewhere else and Cpt. Fritz just changed that address to 1026 North Beckley? 

See above, I think you are arguing against yourself based on testimony etc.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Did the Police invent the fake address of 1026 North Beckley right after capturing Lee Oswald and raided his other residence to stage his belongings at 1026 North Beckley?

Why stage anything if you dont plan on photography of it, or any way to document it.

They grabbed someone's belongings at Beckley we are told.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

 

Or, did they have this address in their sleeves and knew they needed to stage 1026 North Beckley already before the assassination?

Will Fritz seemed aware of this area and house.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Is absence of a photograph of Lee's room with Lee belongings in it a proof that the Police had planted his belongings to that small room in 1026 North Beckley? Or, is it rather a proof of a sloppy detective work? 

Did Lee drag a Rifle to work?

Again your blindness to the obvious is breathtaking.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

There are a number of puzzling points which do raise questions about Lee Oswald's whereabouts, however, they appear to result from misunderstanding, honest errors, poor investigation, lack of proper documentation and of course, from urgency to convict Lee Oswald as a killer, and also from active framing accomplished by several people.

Why does the framing start or end with a few. It seems the guy with a 98% clearance rate on homicides is a HUGE suspect, and this incrimination did not happen in a vacuum. The foot soldiers are well aware and kept mum.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

If Lt. Jack Revill wrote 602 Elsbeth as Lee Oswald's address, it raises a red flag because this address was almost identical with the address at which Lee and Marina lived before moving to Neeley Street

Yet Fritzs says Lee denies Neely... 

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

 

- only, how could Revill know about Elsbeth address if a different address was in Roy Truly's records and it was not 1026 North Beckley either.

It may be prudent to try to answer the questions listed on top of my post and only accept refutation of 1026 North Beckley address if these questions can be answered without a shadow of doubt.

Are you looking for absolute proofs.

Then the shoe is on the other foot.

Its been proven to a degree of reasonable doubt that Oswald did not go to Beckley for a pistol and thus leave a trail to Tippit's murder.

Its beyond reasonable to question the witnesses and evidence, and if that does not hold up to scrutiny... it must be re-examined.

This is not the end Andrej, but the start.

On 2/13/2020 at 4:32 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

I would also recommend to answer points with clear and not too lengthy posts and to avoid mentioning some further hints which only distract from understanding the answer to essential questions.

 

 

There are 50 pages of answers.

The length is what it takes to answer the original question Andrej.

Did Oswald deny living at Beckley?

Cheers, Ed

Oh and btw Hosty is toasty.

https://servimg.com/view/17602890/1377

[Steve Roe]

Andre, now you see why I quit arguing with Ed and ROKC on this theory.

They have no proof of anything but 50 pages of raw speculation that they try to pass off as proof, with giant leaps of supposition that we are supposed to believe. 

Example: "Will Fritz is your inventor."

It's the old "Do you believe me or your lying eyes" syndrome.

They got caught trying to promote Hosty's notes as the truth, and now are backing away from it, and/or twisting it into some half-baked explanation.

No reasonable person will believe this theory.  

[Andrej Stancak]

There are several pieces of evidence speaking for 1026 North Beckley being Lee Oswald's address after his return to Dallas. Please find here the obvious ones:

1. Gladys Johnson testimony for the Warren Commission
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/johnso_g.htm

3. Earlene Roberts's interview.

 

3. Interview with Pat Hall from 2013 which I posted earlier.

4. FBI agent Hosty's authentic notes,  + his book Assignement: Oswald, + his testimony for the Warren Commission:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hosty.htm

Quote:

Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.

5. Captain Fritz's. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm testimony for the Warren Commission.

Cpt. Fritz was told by one of Police officers that Lee Oswald had a room on Beckley.  Cpt Fritz did not know if it was North or South and this is what he asked Lee Oswald:

Quote:

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address?
Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.

I read this in the sense that some Police staff had a foreknowledge of Beckley but Captain Fritz himself did not.

6. Testimony of Officer Potts for the Warren Commission:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Potts.pdf

====================

That said, I do not dispute that there is something very fishy about 1026 North Beckley. First, Bertha Cheek - sister of Earlene Robers  - was in business relations with Jack Ruby who later killed Lee Oswald. Second, some Police members appeared to know Lee Oswald's address before Friday, November 22 and this would be consistent with their plan to frame Lee Oswald.

However, it does not mean that Lee Oswald did not live at 1026 North Beckley. On the contrary: it would be advantageous for the plotters to keep watch over Lee Oswald at a place they knew well.  

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Andrej Stancak

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

This page may be of interest:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2143-stephen-roe

[Steve Roe]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

This page may be of interest:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2143-stephen-roe

Yes Jeremy, that’s the ROKC clubhouse. You can see where they rehearse their Ed Forum posts with other people contributing. Also you can see my name and other names get bashed, mocked and trashed. This is how they operate. 

[Andrej Stancak]

Jeremy:

this thread is not about Steve Roe. It is about finding out whether Lee Oswald did or did not stay at 1026 North Beckley. Being familiar with your expert knowledge of the JFK assassination case, I would be very keen to know what is your view. Do you find enough evidence for the possibility of Lee Oswald staying at 1026 North Beckley, or do you concur with Ed's view saying that Lee Oswald stayed at some other address? 

It is one of the remarkable features of this Forum that we discuss facts and data and not profiles of fellow investigators. If we cannot agree on a certain point, we can always admit it and go each our own ways with no hard feelings. Let us keep it this way. We owe it to pioneers of this Forum.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Andrej Stancak

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Greg Parker, who isn't a member here, has replied:

Quote

 

Steve has mentioned me more than once in that thread, including asking if I was a member. He clearly wanted to take me to task about the evidence in this matter...

I therefore have set up a safe space for reasoned debate here. Up to 10 questions each, no one else involved without prior agreement, answer must be responsive to the specific question asked and ONLY that question, both parties agree not to claim victory here, but to allow readers to come to their own conclusions.

You will not find a fairer offer on any forum. It remains open to anyone on any relevant topic.

 

Sounds reasonable to me. Here it is:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f31-debates

[Steve Roe]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Greg Parker, who isn't a member here, has replied:

Sounds reasonable to me. Here it is:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f31-debates

Jeremy, somehow the topic has shifted off this Beckley theory and over to me debating Greg Parker in his forum. As you know, Parker was banned from this forum, for whatever reason. Here’s a friendly reminder to you and Mr. Parker trying to insert himself back into the Ed Forum via proxies. 
 

Ed Forum Rule:

Voicing For Banned Members:-

It is deemed to be a breach of the rules where a current member posts on behalf of a banned member. It is relatively easy to identify when such a breach may be taking place if requested by a member to post on their behalf. Safest to post for yourself and not on behalf of others.

The penalty will be that the offending member will be placed on "Two Posts a Day" for a a period of time.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

I'm not sure if Steve is implying that I'm acting as a proxy for Greg Parker, but just for the record: I haven't had any contact with Mr Parker about anything to do with this thread. Also for the record: I don't have an opinion either way about whether or not Oswald lived at that particular address.

I merely noticed that Greg was offering to debate the topic, and, since he can't do that here, anyone who is interested could do so at his forum, under a set of rules which seem unobjectionable.