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On 1/24/2020 at 7:02 PM, Bart Kamp said:

Roe, I have already answered you nor will you dictate me in any way.. Try and answer me for a change. You have been evading the real issue for months and your infantile games do not wash at all. Just like Brian Doyle, never addressing the real issues. It's laughable. 

Secondly you need to understand that there are differences between me, Greg Parker and Ed Ledoux. To me, it makes not an  iota of difference whether he lived there.  And you do not address the presented evidence, you wouldn't dare as you would lose the argument badly. Just like Brian Doyle.

To me it's the gun, which is the main issue to me. Prayer Man living at Beckley or not makes no difference to the Prayer Man issue whatsoever. The timing issue of him going there and picking up the piece was already debunked 55 years ago. The DPD invented, you know the scumbags whose actions you defend, them tossing it inside the TT at Oswald. Those bent bastards then went to Beckley and dropped commie literature and what not, and yes that holster hanging from the doorknob. Found those finger prints yet? A gun inside a room where the kids were playing with commie literature around as well, Those kids and Roberts weren't nosey at all. Sure.

You said you used to be a CTer but have turned a MacAdams style cherry picker LNer instead,  I am not surprised purely as to how you deal with evidence as a whole

You are not worth debating with any further, just like Brian Doyle.

Well ok......

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On 1/26/2020 at 2:59 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Can anyone answer the point raised by Steve about Lee Oswald himself saying during his very first interrogation  that he had lived at 1026 North Beckley . This statement was captured  by FBI agent James Hosty and written by his own hand on a sheet carrying a DPD banner.

Andrej,

Hosty wasn't present during Oswald's first interrogation.

Oswald was brought in for questioning at 2:20.

The police were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley at 2:40.

The police arrived at Beckley at 3:00.

Hosty entered Fritz's office at 3:15.

I'm not sure why it took the police 20 minutes to get from downtown Dallas to N. Beckley, but that's another story.

Fritz told the Warren Commission that before he went in to talk to Oswald, and officer, whose name he could not remember, stopped him in the hall and told him that Oswald lived on N. Beckley. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm Later in his testimony, he said to the Commission,

"Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived?
Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.

That part puzzles me. What did Fritz mean when he said, "I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived"?

That doesn't make any sense.

And, if he didn't "have any way of asking Oswald where he lived", how could Oswald have corrected him?

This last line of questioning occurs after Hosty has entered the room, but the police had already been dispatched to Beckley some 35 minutes earlier.

Steve Thomas

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Well now the story/theory gets more bizarre. Instead of just accepting the simple answer that Oswald lived at the Beckley Rooming house, now he's where?? Irving? Don't think so Mr. LeDoux. I've talked to one of the Robert's boys (next door neighbor to Ruth Paine). He was one of the Irving neighborhood kids that Oswald played with on his Irving visits.. He never saw Oswald during the weekdays, only on the weekends, tossing the football around with his brother and him. To even entertain that idea that Oswald lived in the Paine home all this time is just not credible. 

So now the story shifts around again with Ruth Paine getting the telephone number to the Beckley Rooming house and passing it on to Oswald?

Really?

And now the explanation is "Roe can't even recognize a simple phone book". Well first of all, how did Ruth Paine know there was a room for rent at 1026 North Beckley? Wasn't in the newspapers. It wasn't on the sign out front? Are you now suggesting Ruth Paine did a drive by in her Station Wagon and "wrote down the phone number"? Why not simply give Oswald the address? Regular phone books list the name, then the address. Somehow Ruth Paine magically looked up Arthur Johnson, how did she know that? Coles and Polk's were not distributed on the front porches of Dallas residents. I know I lived there in 1963. 

Both Marina and Paine testified they had no idea where he lived. This theory does not accept that. They are not telling the truth right Mr. LeDoux? And why lie about it? Makes zero sense.

So far let's assemble the cast of Truth Benders to support this theory:

1. AC Johnson

2. Gladys Johnson

3. Earlene Roberts

4. Marina Oswald

5. Ruth Paine

6. Herbert Leon Lee

7. Assistant DA Bill Alexander

8. JP David Johnston

9. Fay Turner

10. Henry Moore

11. Walter Potts

12. Will Fritz

 

 

 

 

Edited by Steve Roe
The word XXXXX is not permitted. Substitued other words to that effect.
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On 1/29/2020 at 9:47 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Andrej,

Hosty wasn't present during Oswald's first interrogation.

Oswald was brought in for questioning at 2:20.

The police were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley at 2:40.

The police arrived at Beckley at 3:00.

Hosty entered Fritz's office at 3:15.

I'm not sure why it took the police 20 minutes to get from downtown Dallas to N. Beckley, but that's another story.

Fritz told the Warren Commission that before he went in to talk to Oswald, and officer, whose name he could not remember, stopped him in the hall and told him that Oswald lived on N. Beckley. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm Later in his testimony, he said to the Commission,

"Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived?
Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.

That part puzzles me. What did Fritz mean when he said, "I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived"?

That doesn't make any sense.

And, if he didn't "have any way of asking Oswald where he lived", how could Oswald have corrected him?

This last line of questioning occurs after Hosty has entered the room, but the police had already been dispatched to Beckley some 35 minutes earlier.

Steve Thomas

Steve:

I agree that the information about Lee Oswald's address  while in Dallas in autumn 1963 is unusually uncertain. It started with the incorrect address next to Lee Oswald's name in Revill's list and continued over the period of Friday afternoon. The question posed in this thread is not about when did the Police first learn about Lee Oswald's room in 1026 North Beckley but rather whether Lee Oswald did or did not stay at 1026 North Beckley.

While Ed did a good job by assembling all the contradictions surrounding Lee Oswald's address in Dallas in autumn 1963, the contradictions themselves do not disprove the fact that Lee Oswald stayed at 1026 North Beckley. The ultimate proof is Lee Oswald's own statement which he conferred to the interrogators during the interrogation session at 3.15 (sorry, I did not know that there was any previous interrogation session, I though the Police just asked Lee Oswald questions as they were moving him around the Police department). Thanks to Malcolm Blunt and Bart Kamp, we have authentic James Hosty's notes from this session. The notes say that Lee Oswald himself told the interrogators about 1026 North Beckley.

Again, I do not know when exactly did Captain Fritz learn about 1026 North Beckley and why this point was so cloudy, however, it is quite safe to assume that Lee Oswald lived at 1026 North Beckley in autumn 1963.

If anyone wants to refute 1026 North Beckley as the address of Lee Oswald's boarding room, please explain the presence of 1026 North Beckley in James Hosty's notes.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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Things that need explaining...

  • Not one rent receipt for O.H. Lee was found among his possessions or presented by the Johnson's in the form of a receipt book. As Steve pointed out, they had been renting rooms going back into the 1950's and were business owners, you would think this is something they would do to keep track of things.
  • They say they used one...why was it not introduced as evidence to the WC? Why didn't they try to sell it after the fact if it contained supposedly 8 different instances of payment by "O.H. Lee"? They certainly wanted to do that with the measly scrap of paper with his alleged O.H. Lee signature on it.
  • Why would Oswald use an alias while allegedly staying at N. Beckley, but use his real name at Mary Bledsoe's and the YMCA?
  • When it comes to police being dispatched to Beckley at 2:40 p.m., why would Oswald tell them his address right away if he's being  so secretive about it? They asked him upon searching his wallet whether he was Lee Oswald or Alek Hidell, and according to Gerry Hill he said, "You're the detective, you figure it out." Only after it was established who he actually was, and where he worked did he start answering questions. If he was living at Beckley under an alias, why tell them about it at all? Let them figure it out....and they would not figure it out that quickly, unless somebody already knew...(Hosty)(FBI)
  • Why were none of his possessions photographed or inventoried in situ at Beckley? Where's the sea bag with Oswald stenciled on it?
  • Why would Oswald use the O.H. Lee alias when he had one already in Alek Hidell? Rearranging your real names is not the most ingenious tactic to create an alias. It sounds like a DPD invention to blend H.L. Lee and LHO into "Mr. Lee" as "everyone" allegedly called him.
  • Where is Oswald's room key or house key? Renters would be okay with having their rooms unlocked and wide open while they are at work, with 15 -20 other people living in the house? I know I wouldn't be cool with that, especially with the low life drifter types that rented rooms by the week. Especially if I had a pistol and Communist literature among my belongings. 
  • Why did Oswald have a "Mexican" ashtray at Beckley...when he didn't smoke? Hoping Marina would come over? Was it supposed to be a gift never given? Pretty sure he didn't like the fact that she smoked and wouldn't have encouraged it with an ashtray.
  • The gray jacket found, that he supposedly zipping up as he left Beckley, could not be tied to Oswald in any way, and Marina even stated he did not own one like it.
  • If it was Oswald leaving the rooming house at 1:04 according to Earlene Roberts, and then seen standing at the bus stop on Zangs, then he never could have made it to 10th and Patton in time to kill Tippit.
  • Why did Bledsoe ask him to leave because he was so loud and obnoxious, when he was described as silent and standoffish at Beckley?
  • If Debrueys followed Oswald to Dallas, he would likely have been keeping tabs on his whereabouts. Hosty was obviously in keeping tabs on the Oswalds as well. You telling me somebody wasn't watching this former defector to the Soviet Union and his Russian MVD connected (likely spy) wife? Why did Oswald ask for the FBI when arrested in New Orleans. Why was he allegedly associated by many people with former FBI super agent Guy Banister?
  • If they were watching him, surely traveling to Mexico and trying to re-defect via Cuba, creating scenes at the Cuban and Russian Consulates, would have sparked a renewed interest in Oswald's movements upon returning...if it was him that actually went...if it wasn't, even more interest as to what was up with this guy from the CIA and FBI.
  • It seems to me that someone was probably always watching the Oswalds from the moment they returned to America. Whether it was Banister, or other folks with CIA connections like Jack Martin and David Ferrie in NOLA, and DeMorenschildt and Ruth Paine in Dallas. They were opening his mail, so how do they not know he mail ordered guns using an alias?

 

Edited by Rob Clark
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On 1/31/2020 at 12:21 PM, Rob Clark said:

Things that need explaining...

  • Why did Oswald have a "Mexican" ashtray at Beckley...when he didn't smoke? Hoping Marina would come over? Was it supposed to be a gift never given? Pretty sure he didn't like the fact that she smoked and wouldn't have encouraged it with an ashtray.
  • The gray jacket found, that he supposedly zipping up as he left Beckley, could not be tied to Oswald in any way, and Marina even stated he did own one like it.

 

Rob,

I believe that Mexican Ashtray account came from Hugh Aynesworth, who was not there during the search. He arrived later. The ashtray most likely belonged to the Johnson's rooming house and the cops may have used it while searching the room. It's not anywhere in the list of items recovered during the Beckley search. 

But what was recovered were Oswald's letters, birth certificate etc. See list. 

Regarding the Gray Jacket, Earlene Roberts testified Oswald was wearing it as he left the rooming house. It was cool and windy that day, so that would be reasonable that he did grab a jacket. However he is arrested at the Texas Theater with no jacket. So where did it go? 

That's a partial answer to your list.

 

 

Edited by Steve Roe
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Rob,  until ROKC can address those questions put forward by Hosty’s notes stating Oswald lived there at Beckley and the letters, birth certificate, Russian Flash Cards and others listed in the last post, there’s no need to carry on with the subject at hand. Seriously.....

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"Well now the story/theory gets more bizarre. Instead of just accepting the simple answer that Oswald lived at the Beckley Rooming house, now he's where?? Irving? Don't think so Mr. LeDoux. I've talked to one of the Robert's boys (next door neighbor to Ruth Paine). He was one of the Irving neighborhood kids that Oswald played with on his Irving visits.. He never saw Oswald during the weekdays, only on the weekends, tossing the football around with his brother and him. To even entertain that idea that Oswald lived in the Paine home all this time is just not credible." ~Steve Roe

All of a few weeks, then into a new apartment known of by Ruth, but was to be a surprise for Marina. 
But I digress, any rental would come with a KEY.
Roe has a mental block in this area of property management, locks & keys are foreign to him.


Firstly I'd like to know when Mr. Roe spoke to "one of the Roberts' boys". If it was not recently, as I suspect is the case, then what was Mr Roe doing asking about seeing Oswald on weekdays when this has never been an issue until raised here? I don't think Mr Row did ask. I think he is putting words into "the Roberts' boy's mouth and that all that was said was the Lee would play with them on weekends.

Its too convenient a conversation to of had previously. 
Wasn't Robert's boys in school in November and would not be playing with any men in any yard during the week.
Roe wants to avoid asking questions and just wants to simply accept Beckley rather than work out the details.
Cowardly to say the least. His claim is certainly not worthy of calling me or ROKC out if that's his default standard.
 

Mrs Paine is the one who let's the cat out of the bag. She has stated in the past that Lee would play with the neighborhood kids on the weekend. In fact, she wrote to her father at one stage how he broke up a fight between them on one occasion. 

I wanted to save this bit from the essay for just this occasion, I think I sent Mick or Bart a version with it included. 
Yes the similarities are enormous and I could find only the story from Pat Hall going back to 2006.


"Even though she was only a sixth-grader, Ms. Hall also remembers the tenant as a cordial man of few words, who would, however, occasionally play catch in the front yard with Ms. Hall's brothers. 
One afternoon, her brothers got into a fight with each other. A big one. Oswald rushed outside to break it up. 
"He went down and pulled them apart," says Ms. Hall. "He sat them on the front porch and sat down between them. And he said, 'I want to tell you something: You need to love each other and always take care of each other, and you don't fight each other.'"
And then he said something that Ms. Hall and her family will never forget. With the boys at rapt attention, he said, "And don't ever do anything...that would harm another human being." 
Ms. Hall gets a chill just remembering those words. For two weeks later, Oswald would be charged with a pair of homicides: the murder of Dallas police officer J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in Oak Cliff, preceded 45 minutes earlier by the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on Elm Street."

https://www.dallasnews.com/arts-entertainment/architecture/2006/03/12/patricia-puckett-hall-remembers-lee-harvey-oswald-before-the-world-descended-on-her-grandmother-s-rooming-house/


But in her last talk in Nov last year, she made a point of saying he would spend his whole time watching TV.
Well, he could not be watching TV AND out playing with the neighborhood kids at the same time - not unless Steve has been infected by the 13 inch head forum and is now advocating the Two Oswald Theory. He also was in his room reading westerns... or making long distance calls to Missouri or Shreveport to talk with his girlfriend.
No. It is more likely that he was glued to the couch watching TV  during week evening/nights after work and thus never seen by the neighborhood kids -- until day time on weekends.

That was his schedule according to Mr and Mrs AC Johnson. Story is all Roe has to prop up a debunked tale.
As for Ruth not being involved in helping him look for places... perhaps Steve can explain this?

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t283-the-washing-machine-conspiracy

Roe's trying and failing at Beckley, but he is trying, he found numbers in a book likely from Oswald's apartment searches with Ruth but hey numbers in a book don't equal residency and we know if Lee did look at the tiny room he said no thank you and went on to the next... Roe has to have Oswald at Beckley so he can use all the false attributions and proximity to the Tippit murder as his anchor....and Roe admits thinking is hard. 
 We also know that Lee sought the help of his Aunt and one of his mother's friends in looking for a place and for a job. He was driven around looking for places to live.
That's called a precedent.
Established habit.

How could a kind-hearted charity Quaker lady say "no"?

The larger point here is Mr. Roe's MO - typical of the secretive FB group he is a member of.

1) He is reliant solely on witnesses - including unnamed witnesses whose exact words we do not know, let alone the exact questions asked and in what context. 

2) He will not respond to the evidence put forth.

3) He has made it clear to Bart that he will respond how he sees fit. How he sees fit is as above. Ignore the evidence presented and concentrate on lifting the status of witnesses he likes to that of infallible saints - while simultaneously throwing the usual mud about how many XXXXX we think there are in all of this and etc.

3a) And all the while contradicting the available evidence with tepid witnesses.

It is all very old and tired. If he had an ounce honesty and integrity, he would break the Jim Hess mould and actually try and address some of the following:

How did Roberts, and Glady's never see the holster hanging on the door knob?
Was it because Earlene is blind thus can not be relied upon for any identification of anyone. Or she never saw what was never there.
If Roe needs a third option he really is just worming out of his own pile.


How did Roberts or Glady's never see the stacks of Commie literature allegedly found?

Why did they think Oswald read Westerns
(hint for Roe: it was Floyd deGraffenreid who dressed liked a cowboy and read westerns - both of which are confirmed via his facebook page)


Why are all the later interviews of other residents talking about a small nervous guy, never seen except watching tv... when miraculously, grand-daughter Pat Hall recalls Lee playing with her brothers and... once breaking up a fight between her brothers. Doesn't sound like a "small nervous guy" to me... in fact, what it sounds like is the same story that Ruth Paine told.
Methinks Pat Hall "borrowed" the story to boost her own credibility as a witness about 2000'ish.


Why don't the brothers ever tell the story? Its always Pat's recollection.

In all other cases, former residences seem to be confusing Herbert Lee and Floyd Degraffenreid in their memories and then labeling that confused memory as "Mr Lee" which then gets fed into the false legend of "Mr Lee" being Oswald.

How did Oswald get his clothes cleaned? How did he carry clothes between Irving, the TSBD and Oak Cliff? Sea Bag?
*Found the holster, sea bag, key or fingerprints eh Roe?*
The official investigation checked out Oak Cliff laundromats and drew a blank. None recalled Oswald as a customer. 

Even though the Beckley Bunch pinned a date and time when the tiny room renter went across the street to wash a load... that turned out not to be Oswald at all. So they drop that part. 
Rob Clark might need a two part episode of me setting Roe straight!


Same can be said of local cafes and eateries that other residents used because, according to Hugh Slough, you had to eat out.
How many sandwiches are we to believe this renter ate in his room "for dinner?"
Wasn't it more likely this renter made sandwiches for his lunch as a flooring installer or auto parts store clerk.


The official story can't have Oswald eating out because as above, no one in those eateries recalled him.
Worse still, it blows a whole in his budget...
so then we get the ludicrous situation where even though Slough said they all had to eat out... the official story ignores that and has Oswald with fridge privileges
and subsisting on sandwiches made in his room, all against the rooming house policy that everyone else had to follow.
Johnson's took a shine to the nervous little commie didn't they Roe with extra privileges and didn't even give him a key... HAHA


Roe is welcome to address all the inconsistencies in the official record as presented, and address his own inconsistencies whilst at it.
Cheers.
Ed 

Last Words Of LHO~ Mae Brussels

We had no visitors at our apartment on North Beckley
I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there.

Edited by Ed LeDoux
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While Ed did a good job by assembling all the contradictions surrounding Lee Oswald's address in Dallas in autumn 1963, the contradictions themselves do not disprove the fact that Lee Oswald stayed at 1026 North Beckley.

I do not concur.
Being absent from a place doesn't make one guilty, and here tho a residence comes before proofs and makes Lee guilty by default.
I can't prove a negative according to the lone nut faithful, so I have impugned the evidence.
The evidence consists of witnesses and a slip of paper.

Those have been thoroughly impugned. They should not be used again as proof of residency. Those are the circular arguments that do not move the thread or conclusion to
fruition. 

If there is other evidence not official in origin then it needs to be supported just as the official evidence and witnesses were.  Roe claiming a conversation of unknown time frame and context is worthless. 

Cheers, Ed

 

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Andrej,

 I find it odd both Johnson's said the police told them their address was on Oswald when arrested.

That sounds more like the cops trying to lay a story on the Johnson's about how it was found out about the rooming house so quick....  wait,

 Why would the cops need to lie about finding an address on him if he told the cops where he lived!

Cheers, Ed

ps.

The notes dont mean Lee told Fritz this and he heard it mate.

Hosty wasnt there when this bit supposedly went on with Fritz.

If not why no mention of the lack of North in Oswalds supposed admission and yet Fritz gives testimony to it. 

And as has been presented elsewhere the possibilty leads to backstopping of his notes. 

 

Of note not all in the notes made it from the notes to the public, they cherry picked.

I included the notes as they showcthe frame was bold and ruthless   .. well, one Ruth.

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Somehow Ruth Paine magically looked up Arthur Johnson, how did she know that? Coles and Polk's were not distributed on the front porches of Dallas residents. I know I lived there in 1963. 

Steve,
Are you sure no one gave her the number?

How'd Ruth find Lee the job?

You would know you could of dialed the operator and asked for the phone number to 1026 N. Beckley and the operator would look that up for you, they had telephone directories it was their job... My Mom was an Operator she lived it. 


In telecommunications, directory assistance or directory enquiries is a phone service used to find out a specific telephone number and/or address of a residence, business, or government entity.

If you know the address you could get the number, and like wise you could give them the number and they gave you the address.
Are you claiming the number to the rooming house was perhaps unpublished or secret, and therefore useless to anyone? How'd Ruth, Lee, and a Russian Male get it? 

Right from Oswald... not from a criss-cross directory at any library in greater Dallas.

Thanks for wasting time with reversed conspiracy theories Steve. 

As the story goes Lee Oswald admits to taking the rest of the day off as with all the confusion he was certain there would no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset. Then he got on a bus and went home. Turned out not to be a Marsalis bus as we were told.
Could not be Oswald.
Yet Dallas' finest were stuck holding a transfer for it.
Odd a Marsalis transfer for a Beckley roomer?
This other little slip of paper got the cops out of doing any investigation into the Beckley Bus.

Tell me the bus driver's name who drove the Beckley bus that drove Oswald supposedly to work daily?
Steve Roe you have claimed expert knowledge of Dallas(?) or was it Oak Cliff? 

So tell us the bus drivers name.

Oh and Sir Roe can you tell us kind sir how the commission knew Oswald rode that bus to work? Daily... did they ask the driver or was it the passengers?

How did the DPD, FBI, WC all miss the Beckley bus? Your star players Steve, dropping the proverbial ball?
I mean you lived there how smart is it not to talk to the guy transporting Oswald to work...

And wasn't the Beckley bus behind the Marsalis bus on Elm Street on Nov 22 and the driver would have a cat bird seat to the goings on in and around the Marsalis bus. Yes he would whomever he was.
Yet thanks to the investigation touted by Roe as sufficient, there are deficits the size of a city bus in the tale told by Steve and Co.
 
and pssst they gave the other guy giving rides, Buell, a polygraph you might go find the results for us newbs at ROKC.
Thanks again!!

Cheers and give my love to Pat,
Ed

 

Edited by Ed LeDoux
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1 hour ago, Ed LeDoux said:

Hosty wasnt there when this bit supposedly went on with Fritz.

So, did Hosty make it up when jotting down the note about 1026 NB on a sheet of paper he just took from Captain Fritz' desk? I mean the authentic notes which Bart has discovered in Malcolm Blunt's archive, not the segments of Hosty's notes (albeit also handwritten) which are on Mary Ferrell website. In "Assignment Oswald", the note appears to be Lee's repetition or rather confirmation of what he had told Captain Fritz a bit earlier. 

Hosty's notes containing 1026 North Beckley as Lee's advised address is the strongest argument. Many of the points mentioned in this thread is difficult to comprehend after almost 57 years and given the sloppy investigation and confusing testimonies. However, they are what they are - confusions and shortcomings in the police investigation, intentional or non-intentional, and themselves cannot refute Lee's statements. 

If you would wish to question the veracity of the 1026 North Beckley information in James Hosty's authentic notes, this would also disprove the veracity of any other note in that document, e.g. the one on Lee Oswald being on the first floor during the shooting and going out to watch the parade. 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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