David Josephs Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 10 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said: "38" holster... yep its official... haha As "official" as the BS gets in this case.... here's the same day retraction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 16 hours ago, Larry Hancock said: I do agree on your point David, but two things may be in play....first Oswald was notoriously cheap, he really didn't have much money and he really did care for his kids (my beliefs). Back in 1963 eight bucks was a lot of money, only five years later my wife was trying to run our entire weeks groceries for under $20 and doing it most weeks. That was not a choice, I was in the Air Force with one stripe at the time. And Oswald had more than a little attitude...who needs a lock, I don't have anything worth stealing. I don't really claim to be able to get inside his head but DeMohrenschildt (sp) described him as a proto-hippy (they didn't lock their doors either...grin). Larry - wasn't he already paying the $8 for his unlocked room? I didn't get the impression that locked rooms were an additional $8/wk... and yeah, in 1964 when I was 2 my dad changed industries to take home $256/month. Rent was $100, his car was $80 and he hustled pool on weekends making a few hundred extra every month.... we also ate at grandma's a lot... ... What's your thinking on them claiming to find his June passport in the room? If he "planned" to do any of this or was convinced to be certain places so he could be wisked away some of the things he left in that room seem to me as necessities for a hurried escape... every form of identification was supposedly located in that room when the rest of his family lived permanently elsewhere... with a garage containing some of his stuff.... Just seems strange in a JFK kinda way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 David: I cannot answer the points which are related to poor documentation of evidence. However, not only myself but others before have noted that the "Briarloom" shirt CE151 was found among Lee Oswald's possessions, as well as two pairs of grey slacks. The presence of these items is consistent what Lee Oswald told the interrogators - namely that he changed his shirt and slacks. It is also consistent with the clothes seen on that unknown man standing at the western wall of Depository doorway. However, the black slacks CE158 would not match the pants seen on that unknown man. And the shirt CE151 it is also consistent with some of the testimonies addressing Lee Oswald's clothes on Friday morning. Lee Oswald used to bring his laundry to Irving every weekend and Marina did the washing and ironing. Thus, Lee did not have to bring his laundry to local laundries. The exception was Thursday, November 21 and it looks that this visit was kind of special. It also means that Lee wore his Briarloom shirt CE151 and grey slacks to work on Thursday morning, 21/11, went in these clothes to Irving and returned to work in the same clothes on Friday morning. I do not know what were Lee Oswald's plans after he left the Depository after the shooting, however, changing his clothes would be high on his agenda. The black polo shirt seen on backyard photographs - could it be that the shirt got lost or damaged and then disposed of during 8 months elapsing between early March and November 22? The rest of items found or not found or labelled strangely - this all may be true and it may point to a bad police work. The lack of photographs of his room is certainly one of reasons for having this conversation today. The shirt CE151 is an essential piece of evidence. Pat Speer has discussed the shirt thoroughly in Chapter 4b of his e-book (patspeer.com). I have also collated the testimonies pointing to Briarloom as the shirt Lee's wore on Friday morning. There is a prevailing evidence that the shirt he wore on Friday morning was light-red (maroon) while the one he wore at the time of his arrest was darker and brownish (burgundy, CE150). Pat Speer believes that the reason for the lack of clear information regarding the shirt Lee Oswald wore on Friday morning was that the FBI found some fibres on the rifle butt that would be consistent with CE150 - however, how could fibres from the dark burgundy CE150 be on the rifle allegedly used during the assassination if Lee wore the lighter looking CE151 at the critical moment? My interest in CE151 relates to the arrangement of dark spots which spots can be seen both on CE151 (the one I retrieved from the NARA last June) and Prayer Man's shirt. It is all documented in "Prayer Man is a Man" thread. I hope that this may be the ultimate clue in identification of Prayer Man's identity. Therefore, my current work is focused in reviving Tom Wilson's image analysis method as this may be the only way to look more deeply into dark shapes on the shirt but also on other details such as facial features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 Passport, the address book... Odd Oswald had no toiletries or change of clothes at Ruth's house of Paine. So he supposedly didnt shave, comb, brush teeth or wear anything but what he wears to Irving on weekends and then wears the same clothes to work Monday's. Bloody unlikely. Seems his attire would be predictable and other workers would notice this. All the docs etc supposedly found at Beckley would of course be neatly contained in the "blue and black" valise... convenient. Cheers, Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: David: I cannot answer the points which are related to poor documentation of evidence. OR MAYBE NOT DOCUMENTED BECAUSE THERE WAS NOTHING TO DOCUMENT However, not only myself but others before have noted that the "Briarloom" shirt CE151 was found among Lee Oswald's possessions, as well as two pairs of grey slacks. BOTH THE SHIRT AND PANTS WERE EXAMINED BY FBI AND CUT OUT PIECES WERE TESTED. NOTHING WAS DETERMINED. The presence of these items is consistent what Lee Oswald told the interrogators - NO. Wrong Andrej. He told them he went by bus to the theater. Fritz and Co. then convince us that was a mistake and instead he took a cab and then stops to change clothes, gets a gun and runs to murder a cop at 1:08 Incredible Andrej. And more incredible is you say CONSISTENT. 3 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: namely that he changed his shirt and slacks. It is also consistent with the clothes seen on that unknown man standing at the western wall of Depository doorway. However, the black slacks CE158 would not match the pants seen on that unknown man. And the shirt CE151 it is also consistent with some of the testimonies addressing Lee Oswald's clothes on Friday morning. Lee Oswald used to bring his laundry to Irving every weekend and Marina did the washing and ironing. Thus, Lee did not have to bring his laundry to local laundries. The exception was Thursday, November 21 and it looks that this visit was kind of special. It also means that Lee wore his Briarloom shirt CE151 and grey slacks to work on Thursday morning, 21/11, went in these clothes to Irving and returned to work in the same clothes on Friday morning. I do not know what were Lee Oswald's plans after he left the Depository after the shooting, however, changing his clothes would be high on his agenda. No it wouldn't be, he was trying to catch up with the wife and kids as they planned to go shoe shopping. He took the Beckley bus to Jefferson and walked to the shoe store, looked in and went on to catch a movie instead. He would wear the same clothes to Irving as usual That's consistent Andrej. 3 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: The black polo shirt seen on backyard photographs - could it be that the shirt got lost or damaged and then disposed of during 8 months elapsing between early March and November 22? OR HE NEVER OWNED SUCH CLOTHING, MUCH LIKE THE REVOLVER AND RIFLE... The rest of items found or not found or labelled strangely - this all may be true and it may point to a bad police work. OR A FRAMING OF AN INNOCENT MAN The lack of photographs of his room is certainly one of reasons for having this conversation today. Yes and lack of any contemporary supporting evidence among others. Cheers, Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Ed: I asked you not to turn to me unless and until you answer the question how the dark slacks CE158 (black) fit with the slacks seen on Prayer Man. If you eventually find the courage to answer this question I may then be willing to respond to your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 David, I take your point and am not well informed on this to offer anything solid as a reply....so was it that he was paying for a room with a lock but just didn't have a key or lock the room? Lack of info on my part. As to the other, I think my picture of Oswald in Dallas is just that he was very "mobile", he may well have stayed other places but I have a problem with him never being at Beckley at all. Your point on what was there and elsewhere is a good one though, over the years I've increasingly come to feel that his behavior that day was "normal" (which was for Oswald a bit quirky any way, his being something of a wise guy by nature) then shading to "concerned" as he got more information. My concern is that we take all the pieces of information including the various letters and try fit them together to understand his plans - but that is a mistake because in some cases they are strictly independent. One of the reasons I posted his "last words" synopsis is that my gut tells me that tells more about him than all the evidence put together. As far as his movements that afternoon, for all I know he had made an arrangement to meet somebody at the Texas Theater after work and just went early because it was clear work would not resume. I don't claim to be able to reconstruct the plan for him based on what we know because I think it is a) screwed up and b) after about twelve thirty the overall, extended plan began to unravel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) Deleted Steve Thomas Edited July 18, 2023 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 46 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: The black polo shirt seen on backyard photographs - could it be that the shirt got lost or damaged and then disposed of during 8 months elapsing between early March and November 22? Andrej - if you are aware of the details related to the ITEMS BELONGING TO OSWALD IN EVIDENCE you'd find items from years and years before. You get the impression from Oswald's personal inventory that he DIDN'T keep things forever? Really? It begs a simple question like - if he took the 5' rifle carton with the rifle home with him on the bus (despite all the evidence against any of this happening) wouldn't that box remain a great way to store this rifle as it needs to move from Neely to Irving in Ruth's Station Wagon? Sure seems better than his daughter's blanket. But you see sir, none of this ever happened except for in the legend of Ozzie series on BSTV.... One last thing... the police arrive at the suspect's room, 1026 N BECKLEY we are told, and take most everything without bothering to take a single photo of the room BEFORE removing it all... kinda like the paper bag in the corner drawn into a photo by Studebaker... I mean really? what kind of BS is that for one of the largest police departments in the country? So in terms of REAL EVIDENCE - nothing but the say so of those setting the man up places those items at that address... and the bewildered herds nodding in agreement of be forever hassled by the DPD, the Dallas Sheriff department.... and the US Government/FBI... know the story of LEON YATES do ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 16 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said: David, I take your point and am not well informed on this to offer anything solid as a reply....so was it that he was paying for a room with a lock but just didn't have a key or lock the room? Lack of info on my part. Hey there Larry... and Ed please correct me if wrong here... the doors to his room had keyholes for locks.... it was said by the more current owner Mrs. Hall I believe that he was not provided a key as he had a non-locking room while the basement and 2nd structure had rooms which included locks since they bypassed the main house... At least that's how I read it. and that the room rates where the same either way.... his "receipt" shows $8/wk... the Ad for the room which Roe posted said $7/wk. One would think he had one of the locked rooms if he was there. ... and I think my other point above needs repeating... in true DPD fashion, the photographing of his room AS THEY FOUND IT or as they open drawers and closets to find all this stuff...happens with the same attention to detail as the interrogation ==== The could have had little Studebaker with his months of police photographer work history or anyone with a camera... but all those people were having a late afternoon lunch with all the stenographers who worked at the DPD.... DPD tape recorders where parting gifts, sorry we're done plumb out of 'em here at Homicide....... Take care Larry, DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 40 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: Ed: I asked you not to turn to me unless and until you answer the question how the dark slacks CE158 (black) fit with the slacks seen on Prayer Man. If you eventually find the courage to answer this question I may then be willing to respond to your posts. Before I address your non-insult included question to Ed... courage? I'd like you to go to the index for Volume 16, the start of the CE's.... How come only items of paper or documents and photos are attributed TO LEE OSWALD while every item of clothing offered up as his only say that there are a "Man's" item and not specifically Lee Harvey Oswald's? ALL of these items come from BECKLEY... was the FBI not sure if they were Ozzie's? Andrej? CE 133-A-B - Photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald holding a rifle. CE 158 - Man's black trousers. & Why do you suppose so many Exhibits of what are supposedly Oswald's things, missing? 119, 120, 124, 137,138, 148, 149 ====== Now Prayerman.... that you believe there is enough information in the frame(s) offered to distinguish pants color (like some other describing buttons on a lady's coat), I have some food for your thought... The size of the 8mm frame and the size of the Prayerman figure within the frame: Unless I've missed it somewhere, NONE of the details of the person's pants can be distinguished from the information offered. Do you have an image of Prayerman that actually shows "pants" and gives you the impression it is NOT Oswald? If so, please post as that would be the only way you can prove your point.... Why do you specifically call out CE158? or was that Ed? The similarities are a bit frightening, no? Even the squared off shoulders, the tilt of his head, the hairline, how he holds his arms.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) David: I am not sure if I understand your points. You appear to turn to me with some questions such as missing items in Commission Exhibits which I cannot know and which neither prove or disprove the possibility of Lee Oswald living at North Beckley. In the second part of your post you seem to point to the similarity between Prayer Man and Lee Oswald. I cannot agree more. The CE158 shows black trousers which Lee Oswald wore at the time of his arrest. There is a sharp contrast between the grey of his shirt (burgundy) and black trousers after his arrest but not in Prayer Man's figure. I showed one image illustrating the contrast between the burgundy shirt and black trousers in this thread today. To see Prayer Man's legs, you need to view unprocessed images from Darnell frames before the lady in white stepped too high and covered Prayer Man's legs. This will show you the continuous grey of Prayer Man's shirt and slacks. I am sure you can do it. Edited March 5, 2020 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 Please post the message to / from Pat please Andrej. Thanks, Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 47 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: I am sure you can do it Thanks for the confidence... the point made here is that the amount of visual information available from the frames we are discussing is painfully short on detail due to its size. I've NEVER argued he didn't change his clothes... just not in the manner we've come to accept these past 50 years.... I'm very confident THAT PM was Oswald. === The point being made is that simply because the DPD says so - doesn't make it true. NOTHING AUTHENTICATES that these items were taken from Beckley... is there? Do you supposed when the FBI talks to Johnson or Roberts they're going to corroborate the DPD or speak against them? The POINT, sir is that the investigation was purposefully vague on these "BECKLEY" items.... and even more vague on OSWALD items... 250 items leave Dallas for FBI DC more than 500 are returned and photographed and returned again to the FBI.... except the FBI added evidence... I'm sure you can find which ones were added and which weren't... Don't you suppose a photograph of a holster hanging on OSWALD's doorknob would go a long way in corroborating the pistol in evidence... And you don't even bother to address his lack of most anything necessary at the PAINE residence... Instead we get this - putting this holster in the same category as the Minox camera.... This even though we obviously have a photo and inventory sheets in triplicate with that holster... DUPLICITY was the name of the game that day and permeated the Evidence... Why again MUST he have lived at Beckley continuously from mid October thru Nov 22? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said: Ed: I asked you not to turn to me unless and until you answer the question how the dark slacks CE158 (black) fit with the slacks seen on Prayer Man. If you eventually find the courage to answer this question I may then be willing to respond to your posts. Are you claiming his shirt was tucked in? Is that how you're seeing waistline and dark slacks... No His shirt appears untucked and only partially buttoned if at all. It was thrown on to step out and see the excitement. Motions we see in the two films may be Lee buttoning up sleeves, then shirt front. Natural and logical. What we dont see are tucking motions. Or trousers color. In Towner, etc. Lee is so dark none of his features are visible, thats skin tone to trouser color, all dark. In Weigman and Darnell the images do not lend themselves to the conclusions you're advancing. Darkness is darkness, and not being visible is equally mute. Do any of the others like Lovelady, Williams, etc tuck their outer shirts into their pants. TIA Cheers, Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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