Vince Palamara Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: Got it.... "a unidentified CIA agent" showing his credentials yet remaining unidentified... Putting the "secret" in the Secret Service... it could very well be that Berger did not feel comfortable in revealing the specific identity of the agent in his report (or was told not to) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: Got it.... "a unidentified CIA agent" showing his credentials yet remaining unidentified... Putting the "secret" in the Secret Service... Berger differentiated between the CIA agent and the FBI agent. The FBI agent turned out to be Doyle Williams, the same man who was used in the Warren Commission re-enactments, sitting in the follow-up car (used as "the limousine") and wearing Connally's jacket! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Chris Davidson said: ? Nope: that is Secret Service agent Don Lawton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 On 1/21/2020 at 5:05 PM, Vince Palamara said: thanks! Sure thing Vince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 On 1/20/2020 at 4:36 AM, Steve Thomas said: If he had "credentials", how could he be "unidentified? Steve Thomas Secret Service: On the Knoll and Beyond: “I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent”. Warren Commission Counsel, Wesley Liebeler asked Officer Smith if he had accosted this man. Joe Smith replied, “Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was” “Perhaps Officer Smith’s recollection could have been tainted by his “physical and emotional strain”, except for two things. First, he said that the Secret Service agent “showed me that he was a Secret Service agent”. The question arises, had Officer Smith ever seen Secret Service credentials? As a matter of fact, Smith told author Anthony Summers that he had. As he said to Summers, “The man, this character produced credentials from his hip pocket which showed him to be Secret Service. I have seen those credentials before, and they satisfied me and the deputy sheriff.” Well, "who was he"? Smith, "I dunno" Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said: Well, "who was he"? Smith, "I dunno" It was my understanding Steve that what is now the ATF had agents all over Dealey Plaza and in the TSBD very, VERY early on. "...[FBI Agent James] Hosty told the [House] Select Committee that at the time of the assassination 'Frank' Ellsworth...had indicated that he had been in the grassy knoll area and for some reason identified himself as a Secret Service Agent.' 8 Ellsworth, deposed by the Committee, denied Hosty's allegation. We know, however, that he was in the immediate area.9 Interestingly, he and seven other ATF agents were among the first law enforcement personnel of any description to reach the sixth floor of the TSBD. If Ellsworth was in the vicinity, it remains to be asked how Hosty knew about it. (Peter Dale Scott, "Deep Politics," pg. 274) "In 1963, if you would have asked me if I was a Secret Service agent, I most likely would have answered yes-our roles overlapped that much." (Frank Ellsworth to author Gus Russo in 1994, "Live By The Sword," pg. 473)10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Why Alcohol Tobacco and Fire Arms agents in Dealy Plaza posing as Secret Service agents? Only reason I can think of is to divert potential attention from the CIA or Military Intelligence if caught. Seven of them the first on the sixth floor???. Then they controlled it. How did they know to go there so quickly? CIA/ MI agents given ATF cover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Troyer Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Just a newb, first post. What might our sunglasses wearing agent inside Parkland be holding in his hands? Looks like the way you would hold a shot glass, or small cup. Not that it matters, or important, just wondered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 43 minutes ago, Dan Troyer said: Just a newb, first post. What might our sunglasses wearing agent inside Parkland be holding in his hands? Looks like the way you would hold a shot glass, or small cup. Not that it matters, or important, just wondered. It does look like he's holding something initially. Then I wonder if he's not fingering his ring nervously given the circumstances. Welcome on my part, jmo. The photo brings up more questions. Who is the cop in the cap to sunglasses right, our left? Who is the cop to sunglasses to his left, in the Motorcycle Helmet? Why a Motorcycle Cop at a limited conclave of this sort inside Parkland at this time? Who is the Physician to his left. What the is doctor seemingly emphatically pointing to that the officer is holding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: The photo brings up more questions. Who is the cop in the cap to sunglasses right, our left? Who is the cop to sunglasses to his left, in the Motorcycle Helmet? Why a Motorcycle Cop at a limited conclave of this sort inside Parkland at this time? Ron, The policeman's white cap tells me he was a member of the Traffic Division. Larry Sneed's No More Silence contains interviews with a number of the motorcycle cops. Maybe one of them talks about standing guard in a Parkland hallway. Logicically, it would seem that the motorcycle cop is one of the motorcycle jockeys in the parade escort who arrived d at Parkland before anyone else, and were stationed in the hallways to restrict access to places like the trauma rooms. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Belmont Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 According to the caption on https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth185040/m1/1/ the photograph of the doctor, two uniformed police officers, and the man in suit and shades is dated November 24, 1963, and seems to be part of a series taken in the halls of Parkland that day, and not the day of the assassination, including several shots of Oswald's body (covered by a sheet on a gurney) being taken to the morgue. The pertinent part of one of two captions (depending on which view of the image you select) reads ".. [A doctor at Parkland Hospital speaking to Dallas Police officers], photograph, November 24, 1963; ..." (the inference would be that the man in suit and shades was a Dallas PD plainclothesman, but that might be an assumption by the caption writer, photog, etc.). and, expanded a bit: "Original black and white photographic negative taken by a Dallas Times Herald staff photographer. The image shows a doctor speaking with Dallas Police officers in a hallway at Parkland Hospital after the arrival of Lee Harvey Oswald on Sunday, November 24, 1963." I'll add that the man in suit and shades doesn't look like a DPD plainclothesman at all. Doesn't seem "Texas" to me either. Screams FBI or alphabet soup agency for sure. The zoom tool available to allow closer inspection of the image, https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth185040/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1560&lon=750 can't bring out details of police nameplates, etc. Or what suit n' shades in holding in his hand, though I almost think could be a rabbit's foot (keychain accessory?), with the fuzzy foot part mostly in his right hand and the (shiny) metal "cap" I recall those things having in his left. Total guess there, and par for the course in this case in which so many blow up images (a la David Hemmings in "Blow Up") looking for hidden trees in this forest (or maybe I mean the "wilderness of mirrors"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: The policeman's white cap tells me he was a member of the Traffic Division. Not exactly a correction - just an observation... that's Ken Croy on the right with Markham I believe - at the Tippit scene.... Did each of the men have 2 hats in case they were to be working Traffic? If not, why would he be wearing white? Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell me about your conversation that you had with our court stenographer here prior to coming in here, about Tippit?Mr. CROY. Oh, it was at the scene over where Officer Tippit was killed, at the scene.Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the scene when Tippit was there?Mr. CROY. Yes.Mr. GRIFFIN. Unassigned?Mr. CROY. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killedMr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance. (maybe from the car backing up the alleyway away from Tippit with Westbrook-DJ) Ken Croy was a Reserve Police Sergeant... despite it being mentioned there was paperwork that shows which assignments were given to all participants, Croy is not mentioned... Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived at the police department on the morning of November 22, what time was it that you got there, do you remember?Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like it was around 10 o'clock.Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to 10 o'clock on November 22, had you received any instructions as to what your duties were going to be, in particular with respect to the parade?Mr. ARNETT. Other than just work in the parade is all.Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you arrived, who did you report to?Mr. ARNETT. To the assembly room. And right offhand, now, I can't tell you who was in charge of the regular officers. At that time I knew, and it seems to me like it was Lieutenant--I can't recall his name right now. Maybe I will think of it directly.Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's all right. Was there a meeting of all the reserve officers in the assembly room?Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions at that time?Mr. ARNETT. At that time they were each one assigned their location to work.Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Lawrence Exh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: Not exactly a correction - just an observation... that's Ken Croy on the right with Markham I believe - at the Tippit scene.... Did each of the men have 2 hats in case they were to be working Traffic? If not, why would he be wearing white? Ken Croy was a Reserve Police Sergeant... despite it being mentioned there was paperwork that shows which assignments were given to all participants, Croy is not mentioned... David, Croy told the WC that he was in uniform that day (the 22nd), so it could very well be him in the picture you posted. As a Sergeant in the Reserves, I don't know what Division he had been assigned to. I was going from memory from a long time ago when I was trying to identify the policemen in the Three Tramps photos. I remembered what Greg Burnham said in this Education Forum post from 2011: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17707-hat-badge-man/ <QUOTE> "I have not confirmed this, but I was told by J Harrison (now deceased) formerly of the Dallas Police Department, that "white hats" were TRAFFIC enforcement only. Now, I don't know exactly what their responsibilities would have entailed in 1963, as I'm sure those have evolved over the past nearly 50 years. FWIW" <ENDQUOTE> Steve Thomas Edited January 24, 2020 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) On 1/24/2020 at 12:09 PM, Steve Thomas said: deleted Steve Thomas deleted Steve Thomas Edited May 4, 2023 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: C.T. Walker was a patrolman in the Traffic Division's Accident Prevention Bureau Thanks... I see Croy has the black brim.... But... what's a patrolman doing tracking down a suspected homicide suspect... that has always been a bone with me. The list of those at the Theater arrest does not include a single homicide detective... TRAFFIC and PERSONNEL seem to be the source of most of these men.... Then there are the half dozen or so out back in the alley with the running pickup and the OTHER Oswald arrest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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