Shooting trajectory.

[Chris Bristow]

1 hour ago, Colm Byrne said:

Hello Chris this is the type of post, which I was waiting on so thanks for taking the time with the calculations etc.

I do note you say it, would seem like an impossible task, but not impossible.

Do we know for sure if the top window was closed?  or if the limo, stopped? if it paused even for two seconds this would be more than enough time.

What needs to be established first of all is, was the limo visible through the TSBD from the tower on the roof of the Daltex, I would wonder why this theory was never investigated during all other inquires made to date, Would I be the first to consider it?

 

Ok so the slope angle from the nest to JFK's head was 13.5 to 13.9 degrees. If we extend that 130 foot to the  DalTex it comes out to to 91feet above JFK's head. A person standing on the roof would only be a few feet short of what is needed. I know the floors are 10 feet but I don't know about the last floor to the roof. If it is 10 feet then the shooter would have to be on a ladder to get the last 3 or 4 feet. As far as the view to the left and right it looks like the limo would have been centered in that field of view.
 You have an interesting point about the limo stopping. The shooter would have to know in advance that it would stop and be aware of exactly where it would stop. Without that the shooter would be placing themselves in a horrible position in which the limo would only be a target for split second before they would be shooting though the window pane of Oswald's window.
  The high position of the Dal Tex roof would mean the top 7 to 10 inches of Oswald's window would not be visible. So even if the shooter shot through glass the limo would pass out of sight within a just over one and 1 and 1/2 seconds. That would be complicated by the horizontal part of the window frames blocking the view on both the windows he would be shooting through.
 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Chris Bristow

[Colm Byrne]

40 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

Ok so the slope angle from the nest to JFK's head was 13.5 to 13.9 degrees. If we extend that 130 foot to the  DalTex it comes out to to 91feet above JFK's head. A person standing on the roof would only be a few feet short of what is needed. I know the floors are 10 feet but I don't know about the last floor to the roof. If it is 10 feet then the shooter would have to be on a ladder to get the last 3 or 4 feet. As far as the view to the left and right it looks like the limo would have been centered in that field of view.
 You have an interesting point about the limo stopping. The shooter would have to know in advance that it would stop and be aware of exactly where it would stop. Without that the shooter would be placing themselves in a horrible position in which the limo would only be a target for split second before they would be shooting though the window pane of Oswald's window.
  The high position of the Dal Tex roof would mean the top 7 to 10 inches of Oswald's window would not be visible. So even if the shooter shot through glass the limo would pass out of sight within a just over one and 1 and 1/2 seconds. That would be complicated by the horizontal part of the window frames blocking the view on both the windows he would be shooting through.
 

 

 

Thanks again for the interesting projections/measurements it is an invaluable insight, into the theory, and very helpful.

What would your opinion on this tower be in relation to the view for any would be shooter? looking down onto Elm?

You have a great amount of knowledge regarding the height of the Daltex floors etc,  how great it would be to have a diagram of the structure which was there back in the day, do you think could it have provided the extra elevation to allow the shot?

I can't say if the limo stopped, or not, but have read some interesting discussions on the topic, we know it did slow down considerably, as Hill jumped on the back and when Greer looks back over his shoulder, I do fully take on board your opinion on the very small opportunity available to take the shot if the limo was moving at any speed, but the chances are the drivers back round would render him as someone who would not have lost any sleep over J.F.K early departure as President, and I feel his help might have been imperative for this theory to work.

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[Chris Bristow]

24 minutes ago, Colm Byrne said:

 

 

Thanks again for the interesting projections/measurements it is an invaluable insight, into the theory, and very helpful.

What would your opinion on this tower be in relation to the view for any would be shooter? looking down onto Elm?

You have a great amount of knowledge regarding the height of the Daltex floors etc,  how great it would be to have a diagram of the structure which was there back in the day, do you think could it have provided the extra elevation to allow the shot?

I can't say if the limo stopped, or not, but have read some interesting discussions on the topic, we know it did slow down considerably, as Hill jumped on the back and when Greer looks back over his shoulder, I do fully take on board your opinion on the very small opportunity available to take the shot if the limo was moving at any speed, but the chances are the drivers back round would render him as someone who would not have lost any sleep over J.F.K early departure as President, and I feel his help might have been imperative for this theory to work.

 

Yeah I see that structure inside the yellow Square in your photo and it does look like it's in the right place and would add some elevation needed to make the shot. As far as a diagram an overhead map of Dealey can show you that the limo would fit in to the field of view horizontally. For the vertical it would be nice to have a 3D program but short of that we can use the slope and verify the limo would have been visible f-313.

Personally I think the limo must have stopped because of the corroborating witnesses around Chaney's ride forward to Chief Curry. The limo would have to stop to allow time for Cheney to get in front of it and then stop and have a conversation with Chief Curry.

But David Andrews made a very important point. Multiple Witnesses saw someone standing in the window firing and that would have completely blown the Daltex Shooters View.

Looking at the theory in the past I thought it was a fun one but not too realistic. Would have been much easier just to shoot from a window in the dal-tex in a direct line to the limo.

[David Andrews]

4 hours ago, Colm Byrne said:

Which post David?

 

The post where my information was insufficient to let stand.  When we make a mistake here, we write, "Delete post" to the mods.

[Adam Johnson]

Cannot believe this ridiculous theory has 4 pages of comments.  Colm find anyone who is a shooter, hunter and try and run your idea by them. If your able to find a former military sniper to talk too, run your idea by them.

I believe they will allow you to move on with your life rather quickly and you can then  put this silly theory behind you.

Good luck sir.

 

[Colm Byrne]

10 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Yeah I see that structure inside the yellow Square in your photo and it does look like it's in the right place and would add some elevation needed to make the shot. As far as a diagram an overhead map of Dealey can show you that the limo would fit in to the field of view horizontally. For the vertical it would be nice to have a 3D program but short of that we can use the slope and verify the limo would have been visible f-313.

Personally I think the limo must have stopped because of the corroborating witnesses around Chaney's ride forward to Chief Curry. The limo would have to stop to allow time for Cheney to get in front of it and then stop and have a conversation with Chief Curry.

But David Andrews made a very important point. Multiple Witnesses saw someone standing in the window firing and that would have completely blown the Daltex Shooters View.

Looking at the theory in the past I thought it was a fun one but not too realistic. Would have been much easier just to shoot from a window in the dal-tex in a direct line to the limo.

So we can almost safely say that this theory is viable and possible, now I wonder why it was never fully explored by the keystone cops, or maybe they fell over themselves trying to cover the very realistic idea up.

No witness reported seeing a muzzle flash, on the 6th floor, they might only have spotted someone imitating a shooting.

I am not going into testimony on what people were coaxed into saying, about what they did or did not see , the fact is another firing point is available, other than that window by the alleged SN, which still has the same trajectory,  this is significant

especially if the limo stopped, can you give a little more detail as to why you think it did? even a link or two on Cheney and Curry regarding this please, here is one which states it came to a complete halt,https://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/2014/08/22/

I agree it would have been so much easier, to just fire in a direct line at the limo from the Daltex, but then the trajectory and the alleged snipers nest the planting of the shells and rifle  would not all add up.

This theory is in my opinion one of the best, and most likely to have happened, and if someone wanted to frame Oswald, there would be no better way to do it,  when you consider the grassy knoll, the storm drain, and all of the other wild assumptions, as being firing points, IMO this one tops the poll, at least the bullet direction of travel ties in with all of the other so called physical evidence, from the TSBD

Edited March 25, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[Colm Byrne]

5 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Cannot believe this ridiculous theory has 4 pages of comments.  Colm find anyone who is a shooter, hunter and try and run your idea by them. If your able to find a former military sniper to talk too, run your idea by them.

I believe they will allow you to move on with your life rather quickly and you can then  put this silly theory behind you.

Good luck sir.

 

Adam I gather you don't believe in much,  It does not matter what anyone else thinks, about the theory , if the science proves it possible, then that is what we have. just because it sounds like a tough shot, when two windows are used, does not mean it is any harder if you removed the whole of the TSBD out of the line of fire nothing would change, the most important other factor is, about if the limo came to a stop or not, when it appeared in the line of fire.

Thanks for you input though.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[Colm Byrne]

7 hours ago, David Andrews said:

The post where my information was insufficient to let stand.  When we make a mistake here, we write, "Delete post" to the mods.

OK thanks for the clarification, but could you not have simply edited it.

[David Andrews]

51 minutes ago, Colm Byrne said:

OK thanks for the clarification, but could you not have simply edited it.

I already said, "please."

Edited March 25, 2020 by David Andrews

[Ray Mitcham]

Imagine a sniper saying yes, I will fire through a window, after which the bullet will  pass through another window, and then onto the target. He would be laughed out of the room.There too many variables to ensure that the limo would be in exactly the correct position. Afraid this dog don't hunt. IMO.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Ray Mitcham

[Colm Byrne]

4 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Imagine a sniper saying yes, I will fire through a window, after which the bullet will  pass through another window, and then onto the target. He would be laughed out of the room.There too many variables to ensure that the limo would be in exactly the correct position. Afraid this dog don't hunt. IMO.

The only thing which makes the shot difficult is the need to have the limo stop in the correct view of fire, otherwise the shot would be the exact same, as any for the distance in question, which was only roughly 230 feet or so, not too far at all.

If someone other than Greer was driving I might not suspect him as being in on it, but given his loyalist back round, he would have had more motive than most, to help with taking J.F.K out

If it is proven that from the old water tower which once stood on the Daltex roof, the view through both windows onto Elm had the limo in sight at Z313 then this must be concrete evidence of conspiracy, as the odds of this happening by chance are just too high.

Come on guys lets get real about this.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[David Andrews]

3 hours ago, Colm Byrne said:

If it is proven that from the old water tower which once stood on the Daltex roof, the view through both windows onto Elm had the limo in sight at Z313 then this must be concrete evidence of conspiracy, as the odds of this happening by chance are just too high.

Come on guys lets get real about this.

How has this been "proven?"  Some lines drawn on a photograph, an assumption that the live oak tree was low enough in 1963, and the assertion that both TSBD windows were left sufficiently open, aren't proof.  Even given the tree and the windows, the target view would be limited to what would appear through those window frames for a few seconds. Is there even a single photo that shows that the two windows were open sufficiently to make that shot, or that someone was on that tower?

People who assert that JFK was shot from a curb level sewer opening by a man with a pistol standing underground have more evidence at this point, from anecdotal statements by John Roselli, from wound angle and trajectory, from open access to the sewer, from statements about the behavior of James Lawrence, a car salesman suspected of having been in the sewer.  Researchers have gone and stood under that sewer opening, and nobody can quite put credence in that story, yet.

What is it we're supposed to get real about?  There's been no investigation, and some of the past members who were Dallas researchers and might have taken a look into it are now departed.  Talk to an area researcher who might help you.  I don't feel comfortable mentioning names - maybe the word will spread, and someone will contact you because of your posting here.

From the Dal-Tex tower perch, the shooter might have put rounds into the floorboards or window frames and glass.  He might have hit one of the women in the car, which was not done even with the difficulties of hitting JFK from the standard sniper spots.  Nor were bystanders hit, except by debris fragments from a missed shot that struck a person in an obscure place (James Tague).

In the end, the coverup was such that no such ballistic heroics were needed.  Oswald was fingered, the FBI and Warren Report assigned all trajectories to the sixth floor window, and explained away James Tague with a single bullet theory.  What was to be gained over all the possible detriments?  The sniper's bragging rights?

You need to find the personnel support or research funding to investigate whether that shot was possible, much less if there was roof access at the Dal-Tex.  There's another thread currently that shows - just about to the point of proof - that an object once thought to be a rifle barrel protruding from a lower Dal-Tex window is actually part of the fire escape structure - and many people here put faith in that that theory.

Start writing up a book proposal or a documentary film treatment, with a proposed research budget for investigation.  Otherwise, learn who area researchers are and write to them.  The theory has built-in dramatics, and somebody may bite.

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by David Andrews

[Chris Bristow]

The logistics of this Theory are too fantastic to be seriously considered. Sometimes extreme coincidences do happen. The fact that Oswald line of sight to Kennedy's head can be extended backwards out the East window is a moderate coincidence, in my opinion. The fact that it comes near to the water tower is not an extreme coincidence. You can't tell for sure exactly where it is on a north-south either. It is not an extreme coincidence that we can line up the frame 313 line of sight with a point on the building across the street. In fact the options on the roof go anywhere from being prone two standing up on top of the water tower. There is a point that lines up with frame 313 somewhere near the middle of that range but in a prone position I think it might be closer to frame 316 or 17.

The last issue for me is that there are too many witnesses who know that there was a guy standing in the window shooting. This includes the two witnesses in the window directly below Oswald on the 5th floor.

[Ron Bulman]

Why waste my time?  Someone needs to counter this ridiculous nonsense.  Live oaks shed there leaves in March or April as they grow new ones is just a small part of your problem.  Like added distance.  Really?  Further away, through now two windows flew Arlen Specter's Magic Pristine bullet.  Bologna. 

[Chris Bristow]

57 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Why waste my time?  Someone needs to counter this ridiculous nonsense.  Live oaks shed there leaves in March or April as they grow new ones is just a small part of your problem.  Like added distance.  Really?  Further away, through now two windows flew Arlen Specter's Magic Pristine bullet.  Bologna. 

I don't know if there will be any specific facts to refute the theory unless the line of sight is incorrect. Otherwise it is simply the logistics that make this a non-starter. Some theories like Greer as the shooter or Nellie Connally are non-starters even on this site. And I think we are generally considered to be crazy conspiracy theorists here for the most part. I have no problem with that I'm more comfortable here than any other site. Facebook is a freaking xxxxshow! There are only two people in the limo that have not been accused of being the shooter, that's Lambchop and JFK himself. I've been tempted to float a JFK suicide Theory on Facebook just to see what happens. Oh and because the line of sight is just extending Oswald's line at frame 313 the trees would not be an issue, as we know it at 313 they were very much out of the way

Edited March 26, 2020 by Chris Bristow