The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Paul Brancato]

10 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

      The Children's Health Defense Organization is one of the main sources of anti-vaccine disinformation in the world.

       You know you're on shaky ground when a screwball like Senator Ron Johnson is your spokesperson.

Children's Health Defense - Wikipedia

       In terms of scientific data analysis, adverse events need to be interpreted in the context of the normal population prevalence of such adverse events.  Sh*t happens, with or without vaccines.

       For example, the anti-vaxxers have repeatedly emphasized the risk of myocarditis in young people receiving COVID vaccines.  (Glenn Kessler's Fact Check article in today's WaPo reviews some of that disinformation.)

      But what does the properly analyzed scientific data about vaccines and myocarditis indicate?

      A recent analysis of 3,500,000 younger adults in Denmark who received the Pfizer vaccine showed that only 1 in 75,000 vaccinated adults experienced clinically verified myocarditis.  1 in 75,000!

SARS-CoV-2 vaccination and myocarditis or myopericarditis: population based cohort study

www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068665

      Meanwhile, COVID-19 infections cause a significant risk of myocarditis, in addition to irreversible damage to lung, kidney, and neuronal tissue.

www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm

by my own calculations that’s about the same percentage as kids age 0-17 in the US who die of Covid. Are you in favor of vaccinating children? 

[W. Niederhut]

54 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

      The Children's Health Defense Organization is one of the main sources of anti-vaccine disinformation in the world.

       You know you're on shaky ground when a screwball like Senator Ron Johnson is your spokesperson.

Children's Health Defense - Wikipedia

       In terms of scientific data analysis, adverse events need to be interpreted in the context of the normal population prevalence of such adverse events.  Sh*t happens, with or without vaccines.

       For example, the anti-vaxxers have repeatedly emphasized the risk of myocarditis in young people receiving COVID vaccines.  (Glenn Kessler's Fact Check article in today's WaPo reviews some of that disinformation.)

      But what does the properly analyzed scientific data about vaccines and myocarditis indicate?

      A recent analysis of 3,500,000 younger adults in Denmark who received the Pfizer vaccine showed that only 1 in 75,000 vaccinated adults experienced clinically verified myocarditis.  1 in 75,000!

SARS-CoV-2 vaccination and myocarditis or myopericarditis: population based cohort study

www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068665

      Meanwhile, COVID-19 infections cause a significant risk of myocarditis, in addition to irreversible damage to lung, kidney, and neuronal tissue.

www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7035e5.htm

by my own calculations that’s about the same percentage as kids age 0-17 in the US who die of Covid. Are you in favor of vaccinating children? 

Expand  

Paul,

     I haven't studied the pediatric COVID data very closely.  Obviously, the COVID morbidity and mortality risks are significantly lower for children than for older adults, so the risk/benefit ratio for vaccinations is higher-- which is not to say that COVID isn't killing children.

     As for the dubious Children's Health Defense article (posted above) about vaccines allegedly causing stillbirths, here's some context. 

     In a recent study of 18,000 women in Scotland, vaccinated women had significantly reduced risks of severe illness, hospitalizations, death, and stillbirths compared to the un-vaccinated.

     So much for Senator RoJo and the "Children's Health Defense Organization."

SARS-CoV-2 infection and COVID-19 vaccination rates in pregnant women in Scotland

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01666-2

    

Edited February 2, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Benjamin Cole]

Remember to be afraid of domestic subversives and foreign enemies. 

[Paul Brancato]

13 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

     I haven't studied the pediatric COVID data very closely.  Obviously, the COVID morbidity and mortality risks are significantly lower for children than for older adults, so the risk/benefit ratio for vaccinations are reduced-- which is not to say that COVID isn't killing children.

     As for the dubious Children's Health Defense article (posted above) about vaccines allegedly causing stillbirths, here's some context. 

     In a recent study of 18,000 women in Scotland, vaccinated women had significantly reduced risks of severe illness, hospitalizations, death, and stillbirths compared to the un-vaccinated.

     So much for Senator RoJo and the "Children's Health Defense Organization."

SARS-CoV-2 infection and COVID-19 vaccination rates in pregnant women in Scotland

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01666-2

    

I looked up deaths by age group on CDC website. The total in nearly two years was 700+. 
Children’s Health Defense Fund, chaired by RFK - funny how that Wiki article hinted at a profit motive behind his involvement. I looked at CDC website and read their section on mercury in vaccines. They changed the compound that delivered mercury in response to pressure from advocacy groups. A vaccine packaged as an individual dose can (not sure if this applies to every vaccine) be requested mercury free.  Anything bottled in multiple doses has to by law contain mercury. I don’t even have to have a point of view on the safety of mercury to know that the information flowing out of mainstream media on this is skewed. CDC says ask your doc if you want no mercury. Anyone ever been asked this question by their doc? CDC makes you read 20+ pages in defense of mercury as a preservative.

after reading Wiki on RFK’s org I looked up measles. Try finding statistics on how many children died during the recent surge in cases. In order to mandate vaccines of any kind to anyone there needs to be a deep dive into statistics. Call it cost benefit analysis. Sounds cold, but every time I mention the astoundingly rare death rate among children I’m accused of being callous towards the few that die. Ain’t it obvious that weak immune systems play a huge role? 
the problem I have with the debate, or lack of debate, around Covid and vaccines, is that it is almost completely polarized. I’m sick of people posting links to their favorite experts. In my view Joe Rogan has a chance to change that, and if this public pressure has that result I would say it was successful. But if he follows his own dictums and simply follows up the alternative voices with the mainstream we will get nowhere. Facts are quite simply missing - on both sides of this divide. There are deep socio economic reasons why some suffer more than others, and they are almost never addressed. People who can work from home are in an entirely different situation than either essential workers, or those for whom in person work is essential. There’s the rather huge question of why MRNA technology is not being shared. Are vaccines really the best way to deal with a global pandemic when so much of the global population has little or no access? Should children be vaccinated? And most importantly, and at the risk of seeming cold hearted, who is dying? When ICU wards are straining to keep up the question is why? So many cases of Covid counted in the intensive care statistics were admitted for other reasons. We never talk about those reasons. Joe Rogan being cancelled? How about Coke, or MacDonalds. We never compare Covid deaths in the young to other causes of death in the same age group. Why the dearth of real information?

ironically I got boosted yesterday and feel weak and achy. I would have preferred waiting for the Novavax vaccine to get approved here. Will it? 

[Paul Brancato]

I forgot to add that I thought it ironic that a few Waldorf schools were mentioned in the Wiki measles article as being vaccine averse. Anyone know the history of Rudolf Steiner? This population is probably far left wing, not right.

[Matt Allison]

I would certainly encourage everyone to get vaccinated and boosted, as I am. I'm a vocal proponent of the MRNA shot. But in my opinion it's a personal choice. The total lack of vaccination in under-developed countries means Covid will continue to produce variants, and the U.S. vaccination rate will have no effect on changing that, IMO.

[Paul Brancato]

4 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

I would certainly encourage everyone to get vaccinated and boosted, as I am. I'm a vocal proponent of the MRNA shot. But in my opinion it's a personal choice. The total lack of vaccination in under-developed countries means Covid will continue to produce variants, and the U.S. vaccination rate will have no effect on changing that, IMO.

I have a question about your statement that Covid variants are being produced in unvaccinated populations. Are you sure about that? I see this repeated over and over without attendant facts. With bacteria and antibiotics it appears that the medicines cause the rise of resistant organisms. 

[Ron Bulman]

On 1/31/2022 at 7:26 PM, Ron Bulman said:

These people ask the exact same question W.

Trump confesses to the whole plot to overturn the 2020 election (yahoo.com)

Raskin says Trump "said the criminal part out loud" (msn.com)

[W. Niederhut]

10 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

the problem I have with the debate, or lack of debate, around Covid and vaccines, is that it is almost completely polarized. I’m sick of people posting links to their favorite experts. In my view Joe Rogan has a chance to change that, and if this public pressure has that result I would say it was successful. But if he follows his own dictums and simply follows up the alternative voices with the mainstream we will get nowhere. Facts are quite simply missing - on both sides of this divide.

Paul,

     I beg to differ.  Science is science.  It's about epistemology--the scientific method for discerning the truth, through empiricism and a logical analysis of data.  That includes probabilistic analyses of treatment outcomes in relation to control populations.   How does treatment compare statistically with a placebo or no treatment?

    Post-truthers and the anti-vaxxers have tried to present this vaccine debate as a mere polarized difference of opinion between "experts,"  in which, "no one has a monopoly on truth."   It isn't.

    That is why I have consistently tried to post the actual peer-reviewed scientific data in our discussions, with associated statistical analyses.

    Conversely, if you look carefully at what the anti-vaxxers are presenting as evidence, it falls apart under scientific scrutiny.  At worst, it is anecdotal material, devoid of context or controls.  That's why their claims have been consistently debunked by the true experts.

     As an example, what are the risks of COVID infection and stillbirths for vaccinated and un-vaccinated, pregnant women?  Where is that data in the Children's Health Defense Organization article posted above?

     I've been analyzing medical papers for 40 years, and I've even been quoted in the New York Times on a couple of occasions as a critic of Big Pharma.  And I know that pharmaceutical companies have often massaged data and oversold their over-priced products. 

     But the efficacy and relative risk data for the COVID vaccines has been phenomenal, contrary to the constant disinformation coming from the anti-vax community.

     The people dying from COVID are the un-vaccinated, like Meat Loaf. 

     Even Donald Trump admitted that much recently.  (And he got booed for admitting it.)

 

    

[Benjamin Cole]

23 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I have a question about your statement that Covid variants are being produced in unvaccinated populations. Are you sure about that? I see this repeated over and over without attendant facts. With bacteria and antibiotics it appears that the medicines cause the rise of resistant organisms. 

Paul B.--

 

You ask interesting questions. 

Also, any policy must be made in the real world. If there are gigantic swathes of the global population (billions of people) who are unvaccinated and that leads to new mutations, some of which are more than 200 times as infectious as the original C19....then what should policy be?

Keep in mind the US has a de facto open border with Mexico. 

Also, the US has huge populations of dogs and cats, unvaccinated and maskless. Hong Kong recently euthanized 2,000 pet hamsters as possible vectors for C19.  

One doesn't have to be an anti-vaxxer to wonder if US C19 policies make sense. 

Should the US euthanize dogs and cats and effectively seal the border with Mexico? 

If we are fighting C19, why not? 

 

 

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Remember to be afraid of domestic subversives and foreign enemies. 

This whole thing is so transparent to people not under this “psychosis” brought on by fear. 

When I asked a couple of people here last year or in 2020 how many of these right wing supremacists exist in the USA, nobody could answer.

A year or so later it’s basically anyone who doesn’t fully support government or MSM. The change has been in the media and politicians ramping up the propaganda. 

When you lump libertarians in that category, you create even more people against government and the media. You create even more division. In short, if you are against right wing supremacists (which you should be) don’t go putting everyone else who politically disagrees with you in that category, don’t make it all “us and them.” If you do that, you’re part of the problem, not the solution. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

This whole thing is so transparent to people not under this “psychosis” brought on by fear. 

When I asked a couple of people here last year or in 2020 how many of these right wing supremacists exist in the USA, nobody could answer.

A year or so later it’s basically anyone who doesn’t fully support government or MSM. The change has been in the media and politicians ramping up the propaganda. 

When you lump libertarians in that category, you create even more people against government and the media. You create even more division. In short, if you are against right wing supremacists (which you should be) don’t go putting everyone else who politically disagrees with you in that category, don’t make it all “us and them.” If you do that, you’re part of the problem, not the solution. 

"White House urges Spotify to take further action on Joe Rogan: ‘More can be done’"----The Independent

 

"Joe Rogan Is Mainstreaming Right-Wing Misinformation"--The Daily Beast

Where to start with this? This Rogan guy was kicked out of the M$M, but now he is accused of "mainstreaming" misinformation...by the Daily Beast, no less, which has been more-or-less outed as a CIA rag. 

And the White House is urging corporate media do more against Rogan? 

Suddenly, Joe Rogan is what is wrong with America? 

Yes, let's all turn on each other based on red v. blue, ID politics, culture tribes, or whether Joe Rogan needs to be silenced. Once we get rid of Joe Rogan, life will be better. 

That $1.4 trillion spend annually on DoD, VA, DHS, black budget....let's not talk about that. 

Get Joe Rogan! 

 

 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"White House urges Spotify to take further action on Joe Rogan: ‘More can be done’"----The Independent

 

"Joe Rogan Is Mainstreaming Right-Wing Misinformation"--The Daily Beast

Where to start with this? This Rogan guy was kicked out of the M$M, but now he is accused of "mainstreaming" misinformation...by the Daily Beast, no less, which has been more-or-less outed as a CIA rag. 

And the White House is urging corporate media do more against Rogan? 

Suddenly, Joe Rogan is what is wrong with America? 

Yes, let's all turn on each other based on red v. blue, ID politics, culture tribes, or whether Joe Rogan needs to be silenced. Once we get rid of Joe Rogan, life will be better. 

That $1.4 trillion spend annually on DoD, VA, DHS, black budget....let's not talk about that. 

Get Joe Rogan! 

 

 

How could we imagine that so many people would reject the idea of free speech?!  It was the journalists that used to fight for that. It was the Democrats that wanted to protect that. 
 

It becomes clearer every day that an obsession with safety creates sick minds. That a constant supply of fear impairs the critical thinking faculties of ordinarily logical people. That humans who become tribal in their thinking will follow their leaders or party unquestioningly, no matter how much it compromises their morals, sense of right and wrong, or original beliefs. They just need to hear that it’s for “the greater good” they’ll drink the “kool aid” and follow like it’s a Jim Jones conga line to Jonestown. 
 

What a sad state of affairs and it’s so dangerous. 
 

 

[Ron Bulman]

 

[Matt Allison]

4 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I have a question about your statement that Covid variants are being produced in unvaccinated populations. Are you sure about that? I see this repeated over and over without attendant facts. With bacteria and antibiotics it appears that the medicines cause the rise of resistant organisms. 

Hi Paul- the issue is that viral and bacterial infections are two different things. A virus needs a host to survive, whereas bacteria can live outside a host.

A virus will mutate no matter what; immune pressure is not required. That's just the way they roll.

Unless there was a way for a sterilizing vaccine to be equally distributed and used throughout the entire planet, there will be no stopping Covid from mutating when there are that many available hosts. We can only hope that variants continue to lose their virulence.