The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Bob Ness said:

The National Security Archives has published NO signed agreements between NATO, it's allies or countries in the region and Russia that divests those countries interest in determining their own policies. You're basically saying the back and forth that goes on between governments constitutes agreements. They don't.

Your stance on this stuff is getting beyond the pale at this point Jeff. First Crimea, which you were clearly wrong about and now Putin doubles down on on East Ukraine. You clearly want Ukraine taken over at the cost of potentially thousands of more innocent lives.  It's unconscionable.

There was and is no military threat to Russia on that border. Putin is threatening and possibly will invade that country for political objectives and you're waving his flag.

Please don't blither on about the US destabilizing the country. NATO is why there hasn't been another outright slaughter from one European country and it's colonies (like Canada) to another in nearly 80 years. That's a fact and the only destabilizing country in the region is Russia. That's why those countries prefer a Western association rather than living under some sort of dictatorship, which you're suggesting (that's not hyperbole).

Ukraine was destabilized by an unconstitutional coup directed against a democratically elected government, supported and facilitated by the U.S. and other NATO allies. You are condemning reactions to the coup, while tacitly endorsing the initiating illegality itself.

If you choose to be on the “they didn’t get it in writing” side on the issue of NATO expansion - go ahead. It doesn’t look to me as the “intelligent” side of the equation.

The regional security issues which Russia has currently highlighted do feature signed treaties (“agreements”) - as does the Donbass issue which has the explicit standing of a UNSC directive. So you are blowing hot air here by attributing imaginary motives or designating “blithering”, based, it appears, on your own personal animus.

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Jeff Carter said:

 You are condemning reactions to the coup, while tacitly endorsing the initiating illegality itself.

 

Reactions?? So Russia reacts? The coup was initiated because the Russians aren't supposed to be determining the policies of Ukraine by financing, installing and executing opposition figures Jeff. Have you heard Jeff? That's the modus operendi? Flying doctors and all that? What about Navalny? I take it he's a fascist too right? 

Your "intelligence" isn't of any interest to me.  Oddly enough the remarks of an Ambassador or diplomat don't constitute an agreement Jeff.

I can count on you to defend the slaughter. No doubt.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Guest]

A mate commented earlier ....

“LDNR evacuations are extremely smart if they do proceed apace. 

It protects those in danger of attack by Ukranian army (and western masters), many of which are Russian citizens. Russia cannot be accused of aggression by conducting a humanitarian evacuation, and it changes nothing on the ground, no territory is surrendered by the LDNR authorities.

Ukraine must still comply with Minsk Agreements. It would also be domestically popular as Russia is protecting its own citizens.

Russia has a labour shortage, especially good because these are native Russians/slavs, it has plenty of room to house the refugees and one day when matter is resolved they can go back to their land if desired.

No aggression, helps Russia industry and society domestically and no political ground is ceeded. Next level thinking from the Russians as usual, far beyond anything the west is capable of at the present time.”

[Paul Brancato]

I never expected so much rooting for NATO here. When did we all forget how the CIA operates? Oliver Stone is one of our heroes. We all watched his Untold History series I presume. Did we find fault with his analysis then? Why is the characterization of Putin as a thug so widely accepted? Are we not thugs too by any reasonable definition? And what’s all this stuff about protecting Western Democratic values? If Russia is an oligarchy what is the US but the same? Come on. Are we the heroes, the exceptional society? 
William - you saw through Colin Powell and the Bush administration. Good for you. Is your membership in a White Russian church giving you some extra insight here? 
We did destabilize Ukraine for our own purposes - largest richest country in Europe. We are still at it. NATO made sense after WW 2 when Stalin was around. Now its mostly a front for arms sales. 
 Biden predicts a false flag operation, and everyone then puts anything Russia says into that category. A propaganda war on the border of Russia. If they say that Ukrainian forces are provoking Russian separatists they must be lying. If they say they are moving troops away from the border they must be lying, just like Saddam lied about weapons of mass destruction. But he wasn’t lying was he? Would we put up with that if it was Canada or Mexico? No, certainly not. Yet we cannot see how the Russians feel? 
Bob - what’s this nonsense about there being nothing official in regards to bringing Ukraine into NATO? The western installed government there asked NATO to allow them in. It’s a distinction without a difference. Russia is being squeezed, and they are reacting just as we would. And they are being baited into sending in troops, while we claim that any reasons they give will be manufactured by their propaganda machine. What about our propaganda machine? 
 

[W. Niederhut]

Paul,

        Oliver Stone's Untold History series was an excellent espose of the dark side of American imperialism, but I agree with Princeton historian Sean Wilens that Stone and Kuznick were less than accurate in downplaying Stalin's totalitarian Comintern agenda for Europe and the planet in 1945, and beyond.

       Yes, the Red Army largely defeated the N-a-z-i Wehrmacht in WWII.  80% of Wehrmacht casualties in WWII occurred in Russia.  Most Americans don't really understand that history.

       But did that historic Soviet victory in WWII justify turning Eastern Europe into a collection of totalitarian, communist police states for decades?  What about self-determination?  Freedom?  Democracy?

       And we can ask the same question about Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics today.  Do we still support freedom, democracy, and self-determination-- in contrast to totalitarian police states like the Russian Federation and Belarus?  (Admitting that we have made a mockery of those ideals in the Third World and the Middle East.)

       The Kremlin propagandists have tried to portray the Ukrainian struggle for freedom, self-determination, and democracy as N-a-z-i.  There's a good article about this ploy at Russ Baker's WhoWhatWhy website today.

So About Those Ukrainian Nazis…

https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/international/so-about-those-ukrainian-nazis/

February 18, 2022

       As for Putin's nationalist, neo-Soviet police state, let's not be naive.  The man is an autocrat who is openly contemptuous of liberal Western democracy.  He recently sent Russian troops into Belarus to support the dictatorship of the proletariat, Lukashenko.

      IMO, Putin embarrassed Oliver Stone by occupying and annexing the Crimea before the final Oliver Stone interview.  It was painful to watch, because Putin, essentially, made Oliver Stone his bitch.

Edited February 18, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Steve Thomas]

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.227536/gov.uscourts.dcd.227536.66.0_6.pdf

 

These cases concern who, if anyone, should be held civilly liable for the events of
January 6th. The plaintiffs in these cases are eleven members of the House of Representatives in their personal capacities and two Capitol Police officers, James Blassingame and Sidney Hemby (“Blassingame Plaintiffs”). Taken together, they have named as defendants: President Trump; the President’s son, Donald J. Trump Jr.; the President’s counsel, Rudolph W. Giuliani; Representative Mo Brooks; and various organized militia groups—the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and Warboys—
as well as the leader of the Proud Boys, Enrique Tarrio.

 

Plaintiffs’ common and primary claim is that Defendants violated 42 U.S.C. § 1985(1), a provision of a Reconstruction-Era statute known as the Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871. The Act was aimed at eliminating extralegal violence committed by white supremacist and vigilante groups like the Ku Klux Klan and protecting the civil rights of freedmen and freedwomen secured by the Fourteenth Amendment. Section 1985(1) is not, however, strictly speaking a civil rights provision;
rather, it safeguards federal officials and employees against conspiratorial acts directed at preventing them from performing their duties.

 

All Defendants have appeared except the Proud Boys and Warboys. Defendants have moved to dismiss all claims against them.

 

After a full deliberation over the parties’ positions and the record, the court rules as follows:
(1) President Trump’s motion to dismiss is denied as to Plaintiffs’ § 1985(1) claim and certain District of Columbia–law claims and granted as to Swalwell’s § 1986 claim and certain District of Columbia–law claims;

(2) Trump Jr.’s motion to dismiss is granted;

(3) Giuliani’s motion to dismiss is granted;

(4) the Oath Keepers’ motion to dismiss is denied; and

(5) Tarrio’s motion to dismiss is denied. Separately, Brooks has moved to substitute the United States as the proper party under the Westfall Act. The court declines to rule on that motion and instead invites Brooks to file a motion to dismiss, which the court will grant for the same reasons it has granted Trump Jr.’s
and Giuliani’s motions

Dated: February 18, 2022 Amit P. Mehta
United States District Court Judge

 

Steve Thomas

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

I never expected so much rooting for NATO here. When did we all forget how the CIA operates? Oliver Stone is one of our heroes. We all watched his Untold History series I presume. Did we find fault with his analysis then? Why is the characterization of Putin as a thug so widely accepted? Are we not thugs too by any reasonable definition? And what’s all this stuff about protecting Western Democratic values? If Russia is an oligarchy what is the US but the same? Come on. Are we the heroes, the exceptional society? 
William - you saw through Colin Powell and the Bush administration. Good for you. Is your membership in a White Russian church giving you some extra insight here? 
We did destabilize Ukraine for our own purposes - largest richest country in Europe. We are still at it. NATO made sense after WW 2 when Stalin was around. Now its mostly a front for arms sales. 
 Biden predicts a false flag operation, and everyone then puts anything Russia says into that category. A propaganda war on the border of Russia. If they say that Ukrainian forces are provoking Russian separatists they must be lying. If they say they are moving troops away from the border they must be lying, just like Saddam lied about weapons of mass destruction. But he wasn’t lying was he? Would we put up with that if it was Canada or Mexico? No, certainly not. Yet we cannot see how the Russians feel? 
Bob - what’s this nonsense about there being nothing official in regards to bringing Ukraine into NATO? The western installed government there asked NATO to allow them in. It’s a distinction without a difference. Russia is being squeezed, and they are reacting just as we would. And they are being baited into sending in troops, while we claim that any reasons they give will be manufactured by their propaganda machine. What about our propaganda machine? 
 

I watched the untold series, it was very good. 

The difference between the USA & Russia is that the former won a great battle to be the empire of the time and the other fell. USA enjoyed the spoils and prosperity and Russia suffered the hardships of poverty. The people had a much tougher WW2 also. People are products of their environments and theirs was tough. The Soviet Union was a huge threat during the cold war but, out views comes from the west. Perhaps the USA was also a big threat to world peace. Doesn't the work of researchers here tell us that? 

Jeff talks of fairytale villain archetypes, of a the good vs evil narrative people are viewing via tinted glasses, he's right. Anyone buying into that is simple of mind. 

As for Putin being a thug, I think he is a dominant character, who is effectively a dictator. He is very clever, sophisticated in the geopolitical game he plays but, let's not forget he has the mightiest of foes. Despite all pressure he still isn't caving. A few years back I heard him address the international world and he made some valid points. He said the USA has over 1000 overseas bases and installations, Russia has 3, which are all in places where the west would probably agree is a good idea. He said the US is spending 10x what any other nation is on arms. He said his country (Russia) is surrounded on one side by the US and its allies, missiles trained on its cities. He asked if the world understood the tension and stress that such a situation puts on its people? He asked how Russia can be the aggressor? 

We've all seen the deceptions of US foreign policy play out, from Vietnam to WMD's. Yet, people are ready again to assume after a week or two or propaganda that they are supporting the virtuous and righteous. Every single time these things turn out to be more complicated than they are portrayed in the media. So often things are a "fait accompli." We learn after the event we were wrong and instead of being ashamed, we are ready to buy into the next prestige that is presented to us.

The EU has been lying is balls off for months, telling its citizens that we have a gas shortage and that Russia is the problem. Meanwhile Russia has been telling anyone who will listen that the EU can order as much as it wants. The EU has eventually changed its tune hiding behind some bureaucracy that has delayed the ordering. 

My country (Britain) used anti Russian propaganda all of the time, it keeps the nation afraid and perpetuates an arms game. We run stories that Russian warships are in the English Channel, omitting that it's an international shipping corridor. We run stories that Russian jets have been approaching our country in the north sea and buzzing our places, when we've been doing the same since the cold war began. The game is obvious, keep people afraid, the west needs bogeymen. 

I am not anti-US or pro-Russian. We just need to stop falling for the same tricks. 

 

[Matt Allison]

1. USSR:  Not a democracy

2. Russia: Not a democracy.

3. U.S. : Is a democracy.

All comes down to that, as far as I'm concerned. Our country is free and ruled by the people. Theirs isn't.

Game over.

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

 

1. USSR:  Not a democracy

2. Russia: Not a democracy.

3. U.S. : Is a democracy.

All comes down to that, as far as I'm concerned. Our country is free and ruled by the people. Theirs isn't.

Game over.

 

Come on, Matt, this is embarrassing. 

[Matt Allison]

10 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Come on, Matt, this is embarrassing. 

Please, explain why.

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Jeff talks of fairytale villain archetypes, of a the good vs evil narrative people are viewing via tinted glasses, he's right. Anyone buying into that is simple of mind. 



 

Anyone who believes Jeff's erroneous pettifoggery is simple of mind.

Are you actually agreeing with Jeff's lame misinterpretation of my historically accurate observation that Putin is a KGB-educated judo expert who has murdered journalists and poisoned and/or incarcerated opposition politicians in the process of turning the Russian Federation into a totalitarian police state?

Geez... If anyone around here has been promoting fairy tales about Putin, it's Jeff Carter.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

3 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Anyone who believes Jeff's erroneous pettifoggery is simple of mind.

I don’t think you have a natural predilection for hunour but, you just made me burst out laughing reading your comment.
 

That’s not very nice about Jeff, is it? 

 

35 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Are you actually agreeing with Jeff's lame misinterpretation of my historically accurate observation that Putin is a KGB-educated judo expert who has murdered journalists and poisoned and/or incarcerated opposition politicians in the process of turning the Russian Federation into a totalitarian police state?

I agree with Jeff that people fall into the trap they are conditioned to fall in to. Which is looking at everything in a heroes and villains paradigm. Life just isn’t a John Wayne movie, sorry. 
 

Your statement is very interesting. I’ll make a few points which may resonate. 
- So, the CIA never murdered any journalists? I guess Dorothy Kilgallen’s death was something else. 🤷‍♂️ 
- You’ve mentioned the KGB incarcerating politicians and poisoning them. Has the CIA ever done that anywhere? Christ sake, they’ve killed JFK, RFK and all those witnesses/whistleblowers. 🙂 
Operation Mongoose - hello 👋🏻 
- You think 9/11 was an inside job and cover up, but, Putin’s Judo skills are what we should worry about. 🙈

- As for police states, have you looked at what North America and Europe is turning into? Papers please. 
 

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

[Matt Allison]

Chris- I'm not sure how you get to "What the KGB does is ok" via saying "When the CIA did the same thing, it was bad. "

Might want to re-think that approach.

[Matt Allison]

A note to those that would bring Oliver Stone into this discussion:

The defining thing in Oliver Stone's life was his experience in Vietnam. Fighting in a 100% needless war will have that effect on a person (I'm convinced those that fought in Iraq similarly suffer). He is convinced, as most of us are, that had JFK lived, he wouldn't have gone through that. As he blames RW and anti-communist insiders for it, it becomes easier to develop a softer spot for the USSR. But let's not revise history. What the American left wanted wasn't the same as what was happening in the USSR. The American left has been about peace and being good to people. You can not the spin the actions of the USSR into that. And that's why he, and anyone else that falls into that trap, is way off base in pretending Putin is some sort of Eastern European version of JFK.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Chris- I'm not sure how you get to "What the KGB does is ok" via saying "When the CIA did the same thing, it was bad. "

Might want to re-think that approach.

That’s what you’re missing. It’s straight up hypocrisy to be saying Russia are bad for doing the same things that the USA does. They’re both villains, the USA isn’t the hero. This should be apparent. 
The pot calling the kettle black. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Chris Barnard