The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Bob Ness]

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

It’s back!

 

Havana Syndrome: High-level national security officials stricken with unexplained illness on White House grounds--60 minutes CBS

My theory is shielding and safe rooms to prevent electromagnetic intercept of classified information.  

Tempest (codename) - Wikipedia

[Bob Ness]

14 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Putin got clowned by Biden in all this. He's got to be furious this isn't turning out like he thought it would.

 

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

 

As I was saying, this has turned out to be a good Biden strategy. They call Putin out on a world stage, and say Putin is committed to attack.'which means that if Russia attacks, US gets to say "we have superior intelligence" (who for sure knows we don't?), while if they back down to show the US had bad intelligence, Ukraine doesn't get invaded. It's win-win for the US and lose-lose for Russia, and reaffirms every day, Putin is the aggressor.

I never thought I'd say this, but "brilliant".

 

It's possible they're unnerved a bit by our ability to read their encrypted communications almost real time.

[Matt Allison]

Putin an hour ago:

"Let's start with the fact that modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia, more precisely, by the Bolshevik, communist Russia. This process began almost immediately after the 1917 revolution. Then, on the eve and after the Second World War, Stalin already annexed to the USSR and transferred to Ukraine some lands that previously belonged to Poland, Romania and Hungary. And in 1954, for some reason, Khrushchev took Crimea from Russia and gave it to Ukraine. Actually, this is how the territory of Soviet Ukraine was formed" 

This guy is a complete douchenozzle. He can't let go of the fact that the USSR is dead and gone. 

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

Putin an hour ago:

"Let's start with the fact that modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia, more precisely, by the Bolshevik, communist Russia. This process began almost immediately after the 1917 revolution. Then, on the eve and after the Second World War, Stalin already annexed to the USSR and transferred to Ukraine some lands that previously belonged to Poland, Romania and Hungary. And in 1954, for some reason, Khrushchev took Crimea from Russia and gave it to Ukraine. Actually, this is how the territory of Soviet Ukraine was formed" 

This guy is a complete douchenozzle. He can't let go of the fact that the USSR is dead and gone. 

Officially recognized the separatist regions. How predictable.

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Putin an hour ago:

"Let's start with the fact that modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia, more precisely, by the Bolshevik, communist Russia. This process began almost immediately after the 1917 revolution. Then, on the eve and after the Second World War, Stalin already annexed to the USSR and transferred to Ukraine some lands that previously belonged to Poland, Romania and Hungary. And in 1954, for some reason, Khrushchev took Crimea from Russia and gave it to Ukraine. Actually, this is how the territory of Soviet Ukraine was formed" 

This guy is a complete douchenozzle. He can't let go of the fact that the USSR is dead and gone. 

Isn’t it more precisely that NATO can’t recognize that the USSR is dead? All the old Warsaw Pact Soviet satellites are now part of NATO, despite assurances that would not happen. Bitter pill to swallow, one that the US certainly wouldn’t of the situation was reversed. I read two articles in Salon today, one making this exact point. The other tried to draw a parallel with The US and Iraq in 2003, saying Russia is doing what we did, and both are equally wrong. Well, what about physical location and the hundreds of years long history between Russia and Ukraine, and more specifically Crimea? How many military installations does the US have globally? Who is the Empire? Which country instigated the two deadliest and most costly wars in recent history? Who is the world’s leading purveyor of armaments? 
Why Ukraine? It’s the largest and most resource and agriculture rich country in greater Europe. Are we trying to support Democracy? That’s what we said in Iraq, in Vietnam. The notion that Russia is the sole bad actor, and NATO is just trying to support Democracy is nonsense. Putin is an autocrat, and that justifies everything. Hmm - I think we have fascist autocrats in many old Warsaw Pact countries now, but they are loosely allied with the West. It’s a geopolitical game of domination, and Russia has been losing it for decades. They are drawing a line in the sand, or at least trying to, and their motivation couldn’t be clearer. 

[Matt Allison]

Sorry, but I don't think whataboutism is going to do the heavy lifting you need it to do in this instance, Paul.

[Jeff Carter]

16 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

The "coup" was actually a popular uprising between several different factions who wanted to align with the EU and reject Russian supported elements in the Eastern region.

A “popular uprising” deposing an elected government over a trade policy dispute is not consistent with a functioning democratic system - in fact “deposing” is prima facie “unconstitutional” i.e. illegal a.k.a. a coup or putsch. That it happened in reaction to an internationally-mediated compromise which resolved many issues of the immediate dispute in the opposition’s favour and created space for a proper political debate ahead of a new election highlights the extreme bad faith by which this coup was within hours recklessly declared “legitimate” by the United States, United Kingdom, and Canada. That was the destabilization, not the reactions.

I’m almost convinced the intention at the time was to provoke a Russian invasion to restore the legal government, and use the images of “tanks in Kiev” to institute a renewed walled-off decoupled Cold War status that US/NATO policy has since proved eager to promote. The continuing rancor directed to the Soviet Union - which dissolved itself more than 30 years ago - suggests a great deal of frustration that the Cold War did not resolve through a decisive war. Maybe you’ll yet get that opportunity.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Jeff: There is no invasion. The Ukrainians themselves don’t believe there will be an invasion. The only faction hyping an invasion is the anglo bloc of NATO along with NATO senior leadership.

Jeff:There is no Russian invasion of Ukraine. If the rebel provinces are seriously attacked then the Russians will intervene, and have the capability to do so without moving personnel physically across a border. 

****

No acknowledgment,  from ideologue Jeff of being wrong about Putin. Just my Putin right or wrong? right Jeff?.

No expression of disappointment, but probably buying the Kool Aid that the provinces were seriously attacked, as if they couldn't have just come in and tell these people they were in danger and it was in their interest to be bused out, and then  blow it up into their headline news in RT...   Maybe after they invade, they'll show us pictures they say are Ukraine soldier atrocities, that are maybe  10 year old., but who'll know?    Good standard of proof.

I knew we were going to hear about Iraq. Like any of us wanted that.?

After 7 years of peace, now Putin and his oligarchs want their piece in Putin's grand scheme to bring equality  and parity and make the rest of the world  the shith-le he hasn't been able bring his country out of for 20 years.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Matt Allison]

 

49 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

The continuing rancor directed to the Soviet Union - which dissolved itself more than 30 years ago - suggests a great deal of frustration that the Cold War did not resolve through a decisive war. Maybe you’ll yet get that opportunity.

Oh please, spare us this nonsense. I posted the quote from Putin that demonstrated he has never personally acknowledged the end of the USSR and that he secretly hopes to put it back together. 

And now he has invaded Ukraine.

And he's done so by putting Russians in Ukraine, having them pretend they're natives rebelling against Ukraine, and then using that for his phony pretense to invade under the guise of "peacekeeping". He's not even particularly clever or original in his scam.

His crimes are laughably obvious, and those that defend him will receive the appropriate dressing down they deserve.

[Benjamin Cole]

Neither here nor there but---

"Free trade" is often said to increase chances for global peace.

Yet the West has financed to the worst thug regimes on the planet, thanks to "free trade": Putin and the Beijing-CCP. 

BTW, I think Putin is the lesser of the two threats. China's economy is ten times that of Russia, and Beijing has a communist ideology getting stronger by the day. 

Russia is a declining nation of alcoholics, and a one-trick pony economy: they export fossil fuels. 

The multinationals-globalists are in bed with the CCP, but not so much Russia. Another reason to worry about Beijing. 

That said, Putin is a thug, a capitalist kleptocrat. He could have revivified Russian nationalism and pride in a much more positive way. 

[Jeff Carter]

I fully concede I did not anticipate the Russians would move away from a UN Security Council mandated process which they had fully endorsed. Is it an “invasion”? The position of Ukraine and its western partners over the six or seven years they did nothing themselves to realize the UNSC process was that the Russians were already present in the Donbass. Either way, the Russians acted like they did in Crimea - quickly, decisively and producing a zero casualty event. Is it the equivalent to Sudetenland in 1938? I don’t think so - if the Russians were really intent on re-establishing some kind of empire then there wouldn’t have been an eight-year delay in Donbass. But gnash your teeth and arm-chair general the next big war if that’s what you want.

This is only one part of a broader campaign to realize what Russia describes its legitimate national security concerns - in reaction to the steady encroachment of NATO into the former space of first the Warsaw pact and second the old USSR itself. Many distinguished US diplomats from the Cold War era warned of exactly this moment twenty years ago. It has arrived.

I think the events and concepts of international law played out during the Cuban Missile Crisis back in 1962 are directly relevant to today, and directly relevant to this forum. A discussion of that would be fruitful. But the partisan brigade which features on this thread have, I’m sure, many more Daily Beast and MSNBC links to share, let alone fingers to point, before anyone gets to that.

[Matt Allison]

Translation: Jeff doubles down on making excuses for a dictator invading another country.

[Paul Brancato]

26 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

I fully concede I did not anticipate the Russians would move away from a UN Security Council mandated process which they had fully endorsed. Is it an “invasion”? The position of Ukraine and its western partners over the six or seven years they did nothing themselves to realize the UNSC process was that the Russians were already present in the Donbass. Either way, the Russians acted like they did in Crimea - quickly, decisively and producing a zero casualty event. Is it the equivalent to Sudetenland in 1938? I don’t think so - if the Russians were really intent on re-establishing some kind of empire then there wouldn’t have been an eight-year delay in Donbass. But gnash your teeth and arm-chair general the next big war if that’s what you want.

This is only one part of a broader campaign to realize what Russia describes its legitimate national security concerns - in reaction to the steady encroachment of NATO into the former space of first the Warsaw pact and second the old USSR itself. Many distinguished US diplomats from the Cold War era warned of exactly this moment twenty years ago. It has arrived.

I think the events and concepts of international law played out during the Cuban Missile Crisis back in 1962 are directly relevant to today, and directly relevant to this forum. A discussion of that would be fruitful. But the partisan brigade which features on this thread have, I’m sure, many more Daily Beast and MSNBC links to share, let alone fingers to point, before anyone gets to that.

I recall that jfk promised Krushchev that the US would withdraw missiles from Turkey in exchange. 
 

[Paul Brancato]

5 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Translation: Jeff doubles down on making excuses for a dictator invading another country.

How did you feel about Saddam Hussein? Did we make the right choice in 1991 or 2003? Just curious. And I know what about ism, and cancelling, and a host of other useful phrases when one wants to shut off debate. Context is important Matt. 

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Jeff: There is no invasion. The Ukrainians themselves don’t believe there will be an invasion. The only faction hyping an invasion is the anglo bloc of NATO along with NATO senior leadership.

Jeff:There is no Russian invasion of Ukraine. If the rebel provinces are seriously attacked then the Russians will intervene, and have the capability to do so without moving personnel physically across a border. 

****

No acknowledgment,  from ideologue Jeff of being wrong about Putin. Just my Putin right or wrong? right Jeff?.

No expression of disappointment, but probably buying the Kool Aid that the provinces were seriously attacked, as if they couldn't have just come in and tell these people they were in danger and it was in their interest to be bused out, and then  blow it up into their headline news in RT...   Maybe after they invade, they'll show us pictures they say are Ukraine soldier atrocities, that are maybe  10 year old., but who'll know?    Good standard of proof.

I knew we were going to hear about Iraq. Like any of us wanted that.?

After 7 years of peace, now Putin and his oligarchs want their piece in Putin's grand scheme to bring equality  and parity and make the rest of the world  the shith-le he hasn't been able bring his country out of for 20 years.

It’s important to think about Iraq, and everything else Kirk.