JFK's Shirt

[James R Gordon]

I came across this image - I am sure fellow members have seen this image before. However it is the first time I have seen the tear in the back of the shirt as well as the scalpel cuts on the front.

I do not know whether Getty - by linking the bullet damage to the back of the shirt and the damage to the front are suggesting how similar the two tears are.

I find it useful to see both damaged areas of the shirt together. It is the firts time I have seen that.

Thought I would share this.

James

[David Josephs]

Thanks James... only looked at the front slits in the image
Standard button is 12mm or .47”....  ya think there are 10 buttons from top of collar to hole in back?

That photo makes what Ford did even more obvious... no bullet hole in shirt or jacket at the Ford spot...

Take care.. DJ

[Steven Kossor]

You live long enough, you learn everything.  Thanks for continuing my education!

[Ron Bulman]

15 hours ago, James R Gordon said:

I came across this image - I am sure fellow members have seen this image before. However it is the first time I have seen the tear in the back of the shirt as well as the scalpel cuts on the front.

I do not know whether Getty - by linking the bullet damage to the back of the shirt and the damage to the front are suggesting how similar the two tears are.

I find it useful to see both damaged areas of the shirt together. It is the firts time I have seen that.

Thought I would share this.

James

James, I don't think I've ever seen this front version of the shirt zoomed in like this.  The shot in the back one pointed out seems more ragged and elongated than I've ever noticed.  Though I don't think I've ever seen the back version of this zoomed in like this either.  The differences  in it and the scalpel nick from cutting the tie off seem pretty obvious if one looks close.  What seems suggestive to me is the placement of them side by side, level with each other.  I guess it's probably happenstance, if they'd buttoned and raised the collar like it was on JFK the back hole wouldn't be visible.  But this way seems to suggest the bullet went in the "lower neck" in the back and came out the throat before hitting Connally (ha!).

Just for further perspective, from the back side.

While you have us on the subject the supposed exit wound (entrance!) through the tie, but not the shirt, is more elongated than I ever noticed too.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Ron:

Same here.  I don't think I have ever seen that so close up and clear.

Thanks Jim.

Yes those seem to me to be scalpel cuts in front. Which means the anterior wound was higher than the collar. Which, for the WR, does not seem possible with the true location of the back wound.  David is correct, Ford knew what he was doing. So did Specter.

Bugliosi would call this consciousness of guilt if he had not been a paid a million to say the opposite.

 

[Micah Mileto]

19 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ron:

Same here.  I don't think I have ever seen that so close up and clear.

Thanks Jim.

Yes those seem to me to be scalpel cuts in front. Which means the anterior wound was higher than the collar. Which, for the WR, does not seem possible with the true location of the back wound.  David is correct, Ford knew what he was doing. So did Specter.

Bugliosi would call this consciousness of guilt if he had not been a paid a million to say the opposite.

 

Dr. Carrico had one interview where he indicated that scissors were used to cut off the clothing.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Micah Mileto

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/9/2020 at 6:02 AM, James R Gordon said:

I came across this image - I am sure fellow members have seen this image before. However it is the first time I have seen the tear in the back of the shirt as well as the scalpel cuts on the front.

I do not know whether Getty - by linking the bullet damage to the back of the shirt and the damage to the front are suggesting how similar the two tears are.

I find it useful to see both damaged areas of the shirt together. It is the firts time I have seen that.

Thought I would share this.

James

Second thoughts.  That fraying below the button, is that a scalpel nick or is that part of the Entrance wound in the throat, more of it obscured by the shadow?

If the shirt were buttoned up fully with tie in place the top of the collar button would be touching the bottom of JFK's Adams apple.  This possible bullet hole in the shirt seems roughly an inch below it.  I.E. right at the base of that hollow in ones throat between the bottom of the Adams apple and the top of the sternum.  Try it yourself, I did.  Sit up straight, put your index finger into the bottom of that hollow area.  Compared with the picture, if you were buttoned up with a tie on, look about right?

Keep in mind the hole in the tie is small as in an entry wound as opposed to the exit of a large caliber bullet

This would also be almost exactly from appearances where Dr. Perry says he opened the wound slightly to perform the tracheotomy/tracheostomy, and, where we see the butchery of that in the death stare photograph.

[James R Gordon]

Ron,
    You make a number of interesting points that are worthy of being explored.

First. The shirt. We are not seeing the shirt - as it was on the 22nd. The shirt was in the hand of the FBI - and others - so we do not see the condition of the shirt as it would have been. The ragged condition of the back wound entrance is not quite as it would have been seen on the 22nd. That is partly a consequence of age and FBI examination.

Second. Dr. Berkley stated the back wound was at the area of T3.  To my mind this image of the shirt suggests he is probably right.

Third. The picture of the entrance of the back would would appear to be about once inch right of enter. [ JFK’s right ]

Fourth. Two doctors, Charles Carrico and Malcolm Perry were asked to point on their own necks where this entrance wound was. Both did so, but the Commission only indicated where one of them, Charles  Carrico, was pointing to.

Mr. DULLES. Will you show us about where it was?
Dr. CARRICO. Just about where your tie would be.
Mr. DULLES. Where did it enter?
Dr. CARRICO It entered?
Mr. DULLES Yes.
Dr. CARRICO At the time we did not know -
Mr. DULLES I see
Dr. CARRICO. The entrance. All we knew this was a small wound here.
Mr. DULLES. I see. And you put your hand right above where your tie is?
Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; just where the tie -
Mr. DULLES. A little bit to the left.
Dr. CARRICO. To the right.
Mr. DULLES.. Yes; to the right.
Dr. CARRICO. Yes. And this wound was fairly round, had no jagged edges, no evidence of powder burns, and so forth.                H3 361-362

So Charles Carrico states the the entrance hole was just above JFK’s shirt and tie. In addition the wound was a “little bit to the right” of JFK’s midline.

Fifth. Diana Bowron and Margaret Henchliff attended with Charles Carrico when JFK entered Trauma room 1. It was they who undressed him. I believe Diana removed JFK’s shirt and tie. She is on record saying she used a scalpel. Apparently the cut on the shirt came about as she cut too deeply to remove the tie. The cut went also onto the shirt.

I have thought about this image since I posted it. Initially I posted it as information for fellow members. Now I am beginning to see that this document destroys the SBT. The WC and SBT supporters have been able to tie us all in knots. The WC volumes as well as Report provided for WC supports with a gold mine of distractions to counter legitimate argument. E.g the Ryberg drawings, the autopsy report and other similar documents. In my view this picture destroys that. For the first time we can clearly see the position of the entrance wound on JFK’s back.  Unlike other pictures it is not a blurry picture. This is not the blurry blood splattered shirt where it is difficult to see the entrance. The 1964 B&W picture of the shirt has the shirt closed and so it was not possible to see the back would.  Now we can clearly see the back wound and it is clear that this wound is somewhere around T3.

Off hand I do not know the angle of climb from T3 to the neck would. I understand the angle of descent from the Oswald window to JFK is around 41º. Logically it is no longer possible to argue that a wound - that we can clearly see has struck JFK around the area of T3 could possibly exit through the throat,

[Ray Mitcham]

Ron, looks to me like the result of the nurses cutting JFK's tie to get it off rather than them trying to untie it.

There is a corresponding cut on the other side of where the tie would have had to have been cut , which is is just hidden in the photo by the Getty label.

The hole in the back of the shirt seems much too low for it to be involved in the throat wound. 

[Ray Mitcham]

Posted my contribution as James was posting his. The slits in the shirt don't line up if they were bullet Holes (but when if ever, has a bullet caused a slit rather than a hole?) but are in the correct position if caused by a nurses scalpel removing the tie.

[Ron Bulman]

If you click on the pictures in this link, then again to blow them up to full screen it looks like Dr. Carrico and Nurse Bowron could both be correct.

https://maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=NARA-JFKCLOTHES

The third photo of the suit coat and the second two of three of the shirt front show how they were cut off of him.  That's quite a bit of cutting for a scalpel and it seems there would have been danger of cutting him in the haste of the moment that way.  Cutting the suit coat with a scalpel, the thickness of it, slicing repeatedly, seems unlikely to me at least.

The last two photos of the tie where it is cut apart looks kind of ragged like it was being maybe pulled on and cut with a scalpel.  Did they possibly use the first thing at hand to cut the tie off to examine the throat wound?  Then grab scissors to cut the coat and shirt off?  Food for thought.

Trouble is I'm also now more perplexed about the throat wound and the tie.  But that's for another post. 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

If you click on the pictures in this link, then again to blow them up to full screen it looks like Dr. Carrico and Nurse Bowron could both be correct.

https://maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=NARA-JFKCLOTHES

The third photo of the suit coat and the second two of three of the shirt front show how they were cut off of him.  That's quite a bit of cutting for a scalpel and it seems there would have been danger of cutting him in the haste of the moment that way.  Cutting the suit coat with a scalpel, the thickness of it, slicing repeatedly, seems unlikely to me at least.

The last two photos of the tie where it is cut apart looks kind of ragged like it was being maybe pulled on and cut with a scalpel.  Did they possibly use the first thing at hand to cut the tie off to examine the throat wound?  Then grab scissors to cut the coat and shirt off?  Food for thought.

Trouble is I'm also now more perplexed about the throat wound and the tie.  But that's for another post. 

The second photo only of the shirt shows how it was cut off of him.  It appears to be hanging on a (headless) mannequin.  My mistake about 2 of 3.   

[Ron Bulman]

Here's the one I was talking about in the above post.

I've had problems editing some posts for months now.  Sumbit = nothing.  Just me?  Just my computer I guess.

[James R Gordon]

Fair point Ron.

With regard to the tie, Diana Bowron is on record saying she cut it with a scalpel. In doing so she also nicked the knot in the tie.

Looking at the picture a scalpel could have been used, but it is also possible scissors were used or even a combination of the two. Three nurses accompanied Carrico into Trauma 1 I forget the name of the third nurse. So the cutting away of JFK's clothes was nnot the work on one nurse.

James

[Micah Mileto]

2 hours ago, James R Gordon said:

Fair point Ron.

With regard to the tie, Diana Bowron is on record saying she cut it with a scalpel. In doing so she also nicked the knot in the tie.

Looking at the picture a scalpel could have been used, but it is also possible scissors were used or even a combination of the two. Three nurses accompanied Carrico into Trauma 1 I forget the name of the third nurse. So the cutting away of JFK's clothes was nnot the work on one nurse.

James

Where did Bowron say this? I tried looking in *Post Mortem*, but couldn't find anything specific.