What could Lee Bower see from his tower?

[John Butler]

Mark,

This is one of the photos I use to show that Dealey Plaza was a far different place than most people suppose.  I side with Jack White and Harold Weisberg who say that most if not all of the films and photos in Dealey Plaza have been edited to tell the official story.  I don't know of a good reason for the variability of the people shown here.  Maybe different teams of editors had a script to show people here, but did it differently.

If you look at various films and photos you will see that 2 people are shown here and in others, as in this one, show 3 people.  The Zapruder film does not show these people at all.  Some say this is because of the camera angle of the Zapruder film.  IMO, the Zap camera passes right over this area and should show at least the heads of these people. 

[Joe Bauer]

Mark, I can't even tell if the man standing below the other two men on the Elm street side of the grassy knoll in the picture you posted is wearing a "plaid" red shirt versus a plain red shirt. The photo is so blurred.

Interesting question though:

When Lee Bowers said he saw a younger, thinner build man wearing a "plaid" shirt standing near the fence on the upper parking lot/ train track side, was this plaid shirt a "black and white" one?

Bowers used a color description with the other man's "white" shirt.

Why would he not describe the plaid shirt with a color description if it was a distinct color as well?

Same with Julian Ann Mercer. Was the "plaid shirt" she saw her younger man wearing a "black and white" one as well?

You would think that the Warren Commission would have asked Bowers if the plaid shirt was a red, green or yellow one versus a black and white one?

And the same with the Dallas County Sheriff's asking Julia Ann Mercer the same question?

I would think both Bowers and Mercer would have mentioned their plaid shirt observations as being a colored shirt versus a black and white one.

Without mentioning a color I think everyone would imagine a "plaid shirt" as being a black and white one, unless described in color first. Wouldn't you?

Also, did Lee Bowers keep a pair of binoculars in his tower?

You would think in his highly responsible train traffic control responsibility position he would. The tower is far enough away from some of the farther track areas and he might need them to see certain train numbers if the need ever arrived. He might have used them to get a closer look at the strange surveillance vehicles circling the lot in front of him.

And, we know the car lot between the knoll and train tracks and cars was crawling with many people right after the shooting. Still, I wonder if Bowers noticed the police bringing out of one of the train cars the three tramps?

It would have been interesting to hear Bower's take on train car bums and how often he saw them in his years of tower work.

I'm going to start a new thread on the three tramps. I know it's a part of the Dealey Plaza event on that afternoon that has been covered 1,000 times, but l think it is still worthy of delving into again, partly because after all these years and the thousand postings about it it is still an unresolved and worthy import matter.

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Mark Tyler]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Mark,

I want to commend you again on your exhaustive, detailed work on your motorcade presentation.  Unfortunately, I disagree on a few things.  People do that by interpreting things differently.  This is the way I interpret what Lee Bowers said. 

Like most Dealey Plaza witnesses, I believe he said different things at different times.  This is most likely from pressure from the FBI and other authorities.  I think he wanted to tell the truth, but was not allowed to.  His wife thought this desire to talk got him killed after being told he was talking to much. 

That's a fair point John, it's very easy to interpret text differently so it's good to share a different perspective.  Bowers has to be one of the best witnesses I have studied as he gives so much detail, and seems very consistent in the different statements I have read.  It's tragic he didn't live long enough to go into even more detail.

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

As far as I am concerned I think all the railroad workers interviewed by Mark Lane had a script from their bosses.  Did they lie?  Yes, and I can prove it.  This was to point away from any involvement of the railroad companies being involved in the assassination.  As far as possible their story would affirm the official story except for the Triple Underpass.  Mark Lane was as happy as a tick on a fat dog.  He had witnesses that were saying the shooting was coming from the Grassy Knoll, in other words a conspiracy.  And, others were happy that the shooting was directed to another place than the Triple Underpass.  Sadly, he didn't check his witnesses stories as carefully as one might.

The biggest indicator of conspiracy among the witnesses was the majority who said that two of the shots were bunched (i.e. two shots fired in 2 secs or less).  Regardless of the origin of the shots, that pattern is not consistent with a single bolt action gun which would take about 4+ secs to cycle, aim, and fire.  Taken at face value, most witnesses seem to support a conspiracy on that basis.

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

I point to this photo from the tower.  You can't see Elm Street except for that small window pointed to by the red arrow.  Ray Mitcham surmised this just from the lay of the land.  This photo is fairly modern and vegetation may have grown since 1963.  I think this would be pretty much the same as '63.

Yes, the trees and bushes seem to have grown a lot since 1963.  Here is a good photo showing how little blocked Bowers view:

[Mark Tyler]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

If you look at various films and photos you will see that 2 people are shown here and in others, as in this one, show 3 people.  The Zapruder film does not show these people at all.  Some say this is because of the camera angle of the Zapruder film.  IMO, the Zap camera passes right over this area and should show at least the heads of these people. 

The Willis photo only shows 2 people:

I can't see Emmett Hudson here, but he may be obscured by the lamppost.  The other complication is that the photo is slightly blurred, which makes small details difficult to see properly.

In my view the head of Hudson is visible in frame Z413 near the bottom of the frame amongst the bush foliage (the position is a perfect match for the steps judging from the map):

[Mark Tyler]

4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Mark, I can't even tell if the man standing below the other two men on the Elm street side of the grassy knoll in the picture you posted is wearing a "plaid" red shirt versus a plain red shirt. The photo is so blurred.

Interesting question though:

When Lee Bowers said he saw a younger, thinner build man wearing a "plaid" shirt standing near the fence on the upper parking lot/ train track side, was this plaid shirt a "black and white" one?

Bowers used a color description with the other man's "white" shirt.

Why would he not describe the plaid shirt with a color description if it was a distinct color as well?

Same with Julian Ann Mercer. Was the "plaid shirt" she saw her younger man wearing a "black and white" one as well?

You would think that the Warren Commission would have asked Bowers if the plaid shirt was a red, green or yellow one versus a black and white one?

And the same with the Dallas County Sheriff's asking Julia Ann Mercer the same question?

I would think both Bowers and Mercer would have mentioned their plaid shirt observations as being a colored shirt versus a black and white one.

Without mentioning a color I think everyone would imagine a "plaid shirt" as being a black and white one, unless described in color first. Wouldn't you?

Sadly the Muchmore frames I have studied aren't too detailed, so I can't tell for certain if it's plaid or not.

I agree, it's a pity that more detail couldn't be prompted by the Warren Commission, FBI, police, etc.  Plaid shirts come in many different colours so that small detail could have really narrowed things down a bit.

On the subject of plaid shirts there was another person on the knoll in a plaid shirt: William Newman:

Then there was Billy Lovelady in his plaid shirt too:

The Julia Ann Mercer observation is interesting and rather troubling.  Whether this person was Mudd, Newman, Lovelady, or someone else I'm not sure.

4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Also, did Lee Bowers keep a pair of binoculars in his tower?

You would think in his highly responsible train traffic control responsibility position he would. The tower is far enough away from some of the farther track areas and he might need them to see certain train numbers if the need ever arrived. He might have used them to get a closer look at the strange surveillance vehicles circling the lot in front of him.

That's a good question.  If he did use binoculars it would explain how he could see all of this detail from such a distance away.

[John Butler]

Mark,

If you can't see the tower its a good chance the tower can't see you.  Bower said the height of the tower was the same height as the Triple Underpass.  I didn't get that, but I would guess he knows more than me.

This is the infamous sniper in the bushes down at the underpass whose there and not there.  He is way out of position and west from the steps.  Notice that there is a bush in front of him and not behind.  The guys on the steps don't have bushes in front of them.  He has a hat on and it a different hat from the steps guys.  Well, it could be a hat.  Look at the photo above and notice how far the steps are from the place shown below.

 

[Joe Bauer]

Mark, yes, Newman and Lovelady are wearing plaid shirts that day. Good find. I was wrong about no other plaid shirts being worn in Dealey Plaza that day.

However, if the younger man standing next to the picket fence was wearing a colored plaid shirt like Newman and Lovelady, I doubt Bowers could see the plaidness clearly.

The color kind of makes the plaid strips blend in imo.

Same with Julia Ann Mercer. Now she "was" close enough to have seen a colored plaid shirt on the gun case carrying young man and still see it as a "plaid" shirt.

But she never mentioned a "color" of the shirt in her affidavit with the Sheriff's department.

It would have been a significant double witness testimony point if both Lee Bower's and Julia Ann Mercer described the same plaid shirt. As in straight Black and White.

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Richard Price]

John, I think Bowers reference to "the same level" probably has to do with the surface or floor level of the building, not to the level he was looking out.  The bushes you see between the man and the limousine are the bushes directly in front of Zapruder as he turns westward to pan along the limousine path.  The bushes are between the pedestal and the concrete abutment wall attached to the pergola east of the steps.

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

That's a fair point John, it's very easy to interpret text differently so it's good to share a different perspective.  Bowers has to be one of the best witnesses I have studied as he gives so much detail, and seems very consistent in the different statements I have read.  It's tragic he didn't live long enough to go into even more detail.

The biggest indicator of conspiracy among the witnesses was the majority who said that two of the shots were bunched (i.e. two shots fired in 2 secs or less).  Regardless of the origin of the shots, that pattern is not consistent with a single bolt action gun which would take about 4+ secs to cycle, aim, and fire.  Taken at face value, most witnesses seem to support a conspiracy on that basis.

Yes, the trees and bushes seem to have grown a lot since 1963.  Here is a good photo showing how little blocked Bowers view:

Mark, where is this picture from/do you know who took it?  It's obviously a bit after the assassination, while a few people are gathered at the top of the steps and a couple by the fence no one is still running up the knoll.  Seeing the people gathered out in the street, including kids, is what caught my eye.  It seems traffic is still restricted.  

Regarding the thread topic, at the top of the picture that space between the end of the fence and the top of the stairs where the people are standing represents the only window of opportunity for Bowers to see the Limo at the time shots were being fired.  As alluded to previously I've been there and stood immediately below where he worked.  Even with the increased vegetation of a few years ago as opposed to 1963 he would have had only a brief 2-3 second view.  

He did have a clear view of the parking lot with the three questionable vehicles just cruising through, two with out of state plates (?), one talking on a microphone, and Goldwater bumper sticker.  It was a reserved/paid parking lot, not open to the public. 

A clear enough view to notice a man in a white shirt and a man in a plaid shirt hanging around behind the fence on the grassy knoll before the assassination.

A clear enough view to notice a flash or commotion behind the fence.  Maybe the sound of a shot attracted his attention.  He turned and saw the flash of another.  

A commotion of throwing guns in a trunk and running?

Cigarette butts and footprints in the mud make me wonder, and speculate, among other things.

[Robert Montenegro]

17 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Robert,

You make many good points on a train in Dealey Plaza.

"And President Kennedy is murdered right under some Union Pacific Railroad cars?"

This is a bitter argument that is called the Train Game.  I call it the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza.  Most people deny that there was a train on the tracks during the assassination.  The two policemen on the tracks eventually said there was a train there.  Officer White first off and Officer Foster said so later after denying a train was there.  I have no reason to not believe what they said.

This comes from a Chauncy Holt video.  Chauncey Holt said he was ordered onto the train in a box car after the shooting.  (I think he was there from the beginning)  He knew there was explosives in the car and he was praying they, the unknown they, would not blow it up and make a patsy of him and two others in his team.  There's a photo of Chauncy Holt, Bill Shelley, and Oswald in New Orleans.  I call it the 3 patsy photo because of this.

This video came just before Holt died and he knew he was dying of cancer, I believe.  I got the impression he was confessing to being in that boxcar on the train that was on the Triple Underpass during the assassination.  I got the impression he was one of the shooters.  He didn't say it or vaguely imply it.  But, Holt was a career criminal who would never make an admission of guilt for a chargeable offense.  He did imply that early on he was an assassin for the crime bosses. 

 

I see, it was Chauncey Marvin Holt who made those claims about the trains being filled with TNT.

Well, I would trust Mr. Holt as far as I could spit at him, but he may have hid some kernel of truth in his statements, like "Jerry" Hemming did.

But I always thought the "...old tramp..." was a Wackenhut Corporation electronic warfare expert named Fred Lee Crisman, himself an anti-Castro, far-right extremist and perverted coprophilic/sadomasochist, just like his friend, Clay LaVerne Shaw, was.

Apparently, Clay Shaw's defense lawyers, Irvin Dymond, Salvatore Panzeca, Edward F. Wegmann, and William J. Wegmann, were all legal council to the Wackenhut Corporation.

And Wackenhut provided security for Redbird Airport, JM/WAVE Station, Area 51 and the Salton Sea Test Base.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Robert Montenegro

[Chuck Schwartz]

Quote

 

Crisman was from Tacoma but flew to Dallas and New Orleans 84 times between 1960 and 1963.."According to Garrison’s investigators: “Our information indicates that since the early sixties he [Crisman] has made many trips to the New Orleans and Dallas areas in connection with his undercover work for that part of the warfare industry engaged in the manufacture of.. ‘hardware’ –meaning those weapons sold to the U.S. government which are uniquely large and expensive.” https://archive.org/stream/nsia-CrismanFredLee/nsia-CrismanFredLee/Crisman Fred Lee 03#page/n0/mode/2up, Harold Weisberg documents archive

   Crisman was a ‘business partner’ with the younger Thomas Beckham, and friends with both Banister and Clay Shaw, alleged to have been the first person called by Shaw after his indictment."

[John Butler]

12 hours ago, Richard Price said:

John, I think Bowers reference to "the same level" probably has to do with the surface or floor level of the building, not to the level he was looking out.  The bushes you see between the man and the limousine are the bushes directly in front of Zapruder as he turns westward to pan along the limousine path.  The bushes are between the pedestal and the concrete abutment wall attached to the pergola east of the steps.

Thanks Richard,

Yes.  But, there are no bushes in front of the various men on the steps.  The bushes or actually trees are along the wall of the Pergola or along the wooden fence.  They are not down by the steps. 

[John Butler]

6 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

Well, I would trust Mr. Holt as far as I could spit at him, but he may have hid some kernel of truth in his statements, like "Jerry" Hemming did.

Thanks Robert,

I couldn't agree more, particularly on Hemming.  This exception was Holt's video as his farewell death scene or death bed confession.  I may not be remembering correctly, but I think he died within a short period of time after the video, I hesitate to say days.

[Mark Tyler]

16 hours ago, John Butler said:

If you can't see the tower its a good chance the tower can't see you.  Bower said the height of the tower was the same height as the Triple Underpass.  I didn't get that, but I would guess he knows more than me.

I agree John, from this specific camera position the tower is not visible.  Judging from the angle of the shelter at the top of the steps I think the camera is a little too far to the east to see the tower (which is probably obscured by the shelter).

[Mark Tyler]

12 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Mark, yes, Newman and Lovelady are wearing plaid shirts that day. Good find. I was wrong about no other plaid shirts being worn in Dealey Plaza that day.

However, if the younger man standing next to the picket fence was wearing a colored plaid shirt like Newman and Lovelady, I doubt Bowers could see the plaidness clearly.

The color kind of makes the plaid strips blend in imo.

Indeed, from a distance plaid does seem to blend to a single colour so it's hard to be certain.  Bowers mentioning plaid strongly suggests he has either got extraordinary vision or he was using some kind of visual aid like binoculars.  Judging from his use of spectacles I suspect the latter!

12 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Same with Julia Ann Mercer. Now she "was" close enough to have seen a colored plaid shirt on the gun case carrying young man and still see it as a "plaid" shirt.

But she never mentioned a "color" of the shirt in her affidavit with the Sheriff's department.

It would have been a significant double witness testimony point if both Lee Bower's and Julia Ann Mercer described the same plaid shirt. As in straight Black and White.

I agree, that little bit more detail would narrow things down much more.  The same shirt, in the same area, at roughly the same time would indicate the same person.