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Caitlin Johnstone, JFK and the Insurrection


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This article is a bit different than the Inevitable Result thread.  I actually tried to draw parallels between the Kennedy case and January 6th.  But if the mods want to move it there, that is ok with me.

I cannot comprehend Caitlin Johnstone's stance on this.  And I compare it to Mark Lane's reaction to A L Wirin's plaint back in 1964 about how we should all thank Earl Warren since what he did prevented pogroms against the left. OMG.  Please not again.

I also revisited that fool Steve GIllon. Was he wrong. Blaming Mark Lane for this.

Please note the link at the bottom.  That is really important.  

BTW, the source for Gore refusing to go to mob tactics was Annette Benning.  

https://kennedysandking.com/articles/caitlin-johnstone-jfk-and-the-insurrection?fbclid=IwAR1E4ySESZl-89NRxr9I4iENmNPN2YKU58f3qdPL7ucZ-T01GPUCEbBSSBI

 

 

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DiEugenio:
  
This author is not one of those who despises Donald Trump.
</q>

 
No kidding.  It took Kennedys and King 5 years to denounce Trump’s xenophobic, White supremacist sympathies.

Neither do I think he is the worst president in history. Anyone who thinks that does not realize how bad some of the American presidents really were.
 
I don’t think DiEugenio realizes how bad Trump has been.

Other than Woodrow Wilson, how many presidents mis-managed a pandemic dooming hundreds of thousands to death?

How many Presidents have defied a peaceful transfer of power?  

Or acted consistently in the interest of a hostile foreign power?  
 
Or torn children from the arms of their parents in order to discourage legal asylum seekers?  

Demanded personal loyalty from all federal employees?  

Openly claimed unlimited powers?

Blackmailed a friendly foreign leader for dirt on an opponent?

In fact, I actually agreed with some of his early foreign policy decisions. And I appreciate the fact he did not start up any new wars,

Trump helped the Saudis commit genocide in Yemen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47958014

Trump pulled the US out of the Iran nuke deal, slapped crippling sanctions on Iran, assassinated their #2 leader, formed an anti-Iran front with Israel and the Saudis.

Pulled out of the Paris climate accords —forced farmers on the dole with tariffs on China — moved the US embassy to Jerusalem and broke off communication with the Palestinians.

Blackmailed the President of Ukraine.

Trump quadrupled air-strikes in Somalia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention_in_Somalia_(2007–present)

image.jpeg.15a8eca13100abec9b7af4ab2ae46dbd.jpeg

 

image.jpeg

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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Of course a link to her article wouldn't hurt Jim.

Jim says, Neither do I think he is the worst president in history. Anyone who thinks that does not realize how bad some of the American presidents really were.

That's funny Cliff, I remember  back in 2018, I speculated that Trump could be the most corrupt President in U.S. History, and Jim scoffed at that with his characteristic high school snippiness, and said something to the effect. "I shouldn't even spend time talking to you, I mean with Nixon and Murray Chotiner?", Trump's scale of international corruption makes Nixon look like a choir boy, Carl Bernstein even said it. I'd be curious, having some more direct exposure, what Doug thinks of that comparison.

  Yes Caitlain Johnston, the self described "utopian prepper" that Jim has posted at least 4 or 5 links of articles  over the years from  Consortium News. That Jim is awakening from his false illusions about Caitlan Johnston, is probably a good thing. She like Jim, would disavow being a Trumpie, yet could never bring herself to really expose Trump, but sort of passed him off as sort of a minor annoyance. That her sense of denial is like any other Trump Republican should hardly be a surprise.

Though there were parts of every article I could agree with,often I could see she was operating under a major fallacy.. It was those links and several others I found on the site that convinced me that although CN had been quite good over a number of years, that since Robert Parry's passing, that almost anyone could put an article in Consortium News now.

 

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10 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

DiEugenio:
  
This author is not one of those who despises Donald Trump.
</q>

 
No kidding.  It took Kennedys and King 5 years to denounce Trump’s xenophobic, White supremacist sympathies.

Neither do I think he is the worst president in history. Anyone who thinks that does not realize how bad some of the American presidents really were.
 
I don’t think DiEugenio realizes how bad Trump has been.

Other than Woodrow Wilson, how many presidents mis-managed a pandemic dooming hundreds of thousands to death?

How many Presidents have defied a peaceful transfer of power?  

Or acted consistently in the interest of a hostile foreign power?  
 
Or torn children from the arms of their parents in order to discourage legal asylum seekers?  

Demanded personal loyalty from all federal employees?  

Openly claimed unlimited powers?

Blackmailed a friendly foreign leader for dirt on an opponent?

In fact, I actually agreed with some of his early foreign policy decisions. And I appreciate the fact he did not start up any new wars,

Trump helped the Saudis commit genocide in Yemen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47958014

Trump pulled the US out of the Iran nuke deal, slapped crippling sanctions on Iran, assassinated their #2 leader, formed an anti-Iran front with Israel and the Saudis.

Pulled out of the Paris climate accords —forced farmers on the dole with tariffs on China — moved the US embassy to Jerusalem and broke off communication with the Palestinians.

Blackmailed the President of Ukraine.

Trump quadrupled air-strikes in Somalia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention_in_Somalia_(2007–present)

image.jpeg.15a8eca13100abec9b7af4ab2ae46dbd.jpeg

Cliff,

      You left out the part about Trump trying to sabotage the ACA and adding $8 trillion to the national debt in 4 years, in order to cut more taxes for billionaires.

       Trump's staggering budget deficits have received very little attention in our mainstream media, as we saw during the glorious Bush-Cheney era.

        But, now that Biden is POTUS, Republicans and the media are once again talking about deficits and debt... 🤥

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Aye.  Nor did I mention the unprecedented self-dealing and plunder of the public coffers including all those trips to his own properties where he charged the gov’t top dollar.

America once led anti-corruption fight. Now self-dealing Trump is kleptocrats' role model.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/10/31/trump-boosts-kleptocrats-america-gives-up-corruption-fight-column/2476348001/

 

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William, my article was not about Trump.  Neither is my site about the current political scene. My article was about the Insurrection. Do you think I need to be schooled on American History?

How soon we forget W.  He started a war over nothing.  It caused the death of over 600,000 innocent Iraqis.  It destroyed that country and reduced it to rubble.  It completely destabilized the Middle East, so much so that it led to the rise of ISIS.  This has gone on to the point now that the fundamentalist Arabs have more in common with Israel than they do the secular states like Syria. Many would have thought that impossible.

W also wanted to appoint Kissinger to chair the 9/11 investigation.  W also cut taxes on the rich.  He turned a surplus into an almost incurable deficit because of that plus the endless wars in the Middle East. 

How about Nixon?  Nixon knew that the Vietnam War was not winnable in 1969.  He kept it going for four years anyway just so, as in his own words, he would not be labeled as the first president to lose a war.  This caused the death of tens of thousands of American soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese. Then, he did one of the most incredible acts a president could do, he invaded Cambodia and Laos. Because he thought he could get a Korea style settlement. The bombing  of Cambodia led to the fall of Sihanouk, the invasion and the eventual rise to power of Pol Pot. Which caused one of the most terrible post WW 2 genocides.  The death of about 2 millions Cambodians. And Nixon still could not get his Korea style settlement.  If you add up the combination of the Vietnamese and Cambodian fatalities, you come to at least 3.5 million.  To me, the fact that the secret bombing of Cambodia was not included on Nixon's bill of impeachment shows you how cowering congress had become over executive power.

How about Johnson? Knowingly reversed Kennedy's foreign policy just about everywhere, but let us just focus on Vietnam and Indonesia. LBJ knew that JFK was withdrawing, he did everything he could to 1.) Reverse that policy, and 2.) Cover up that reversal in order to say he was not really breaking with Kennedy. How does it get worse than that?  He then did what Kennedy would have never done: he started a massive air war over North Vietnam called Rolling Thunder, and he committed combat troops, going up to 530,000 of them. This caused the deaths of about 2.5 million Vietnamese and over 30,000 American soldiers. I don't have to tell you about all the attendant problems that went along with this: the breakdown of the US army, the Golden Triangle, the lack of belief by the public in government etc. And perhaps the worst of all, the path to power for Richard Nixon. What about Indonesia? Knowingly reversed Kennedy's policy there. That one comes in third for fatalities, over a half million. (I try not to differentiate fatalities by skin color.)

We tend to think of the present as being a constant, for the reason that past horrors have a tendency to recede in memory.  This country has not been fortunate in its choice of presidents in recent years. But to hold up Trump as the poster child is, I think, ignoring history i.e. the above. In my position, I cannot do that.

I like and respect you William, please don't join the ranks of the Gallagher Brothers.  I have them on ignore for a good reason. They think smearing me is more important than the JFK case.

Edited by James DiEugenio
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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

William, my article was not about Trump.  Neither is my site about the current political scene. My article was about the Insurrection. Do you think I need to be schooled on American History?

2016 and after, yes.

Quote

How soon we forget W.  He started a war over nothing.  It caused the death of over 600,000 innocent Iraqis. 

Trump’s mismanagement of Covid has cost the lives of 440,000 Americans in ONE year, the deadliest year in American history.  By summer the death toll is likely to pass 700,000.

Trump’s unnecessary sanctions on Iran contributed to at least 50,000 Iranian deaths and counting.

How US Sanctions have Contributed to the 50K Dead of Coronavirus In Iran

https://www.juancole.com/2020/12/sanctions-contributed-coronavirus.html

Trump’s weapon sales to the Saudis wiped out 10s of thousands of civilians.

US-Caused Civilian Casualties in Yemen at Highest Levels Since 2001, Watchdog Group Says

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/10/28/us-caused-civilian-casualties-yemen-highest-levels-2001-watchdog-group-says.html

The Defense Department says it's responsible for few civilian casualties in the Yemen conflict. But a new watchdog group report released Wednesday contradicts that claim, and says a marked increase of airstrikes and raids resulting in civilian casualties has occurred during the Trump presidency. </q>

Quote

It destroyed that country and reduced it to rubble.  It completely destabilized the Middle East, so much so that it led to the rise of ISIS.  This has gone on to the point now that the fundamentalist Arabs have more in common with Israel than they do the secular states like Syria. Many would have thought that impossible.

There was a peaceful transfer of power under Dubya, and he didn’t encourage his supporters to wage civil war.

Quote

W also wanted to appoint Kissinger to chair the 9/11 investigation.  W also cut taxes on the rich.  He turned a surplus into an almost incurable deficit because of that plus the endless wars in the Middle East. 

How about Nixon? 

There was a peaceful transfer of power under Nixon, and he didn’t encourage his supporters to wage civil war.

Quote

Nixon knew that the Vietnam War was not winnable in 1969.  He kept it going for four years anyway just so, as in his own words, he would not be labeled as the first president to lose a war.  This caused the death of tens of thousands of American soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese. Then, he did one of the most incredible acts a president could do, he invaded Cambodia and Laos. Because he thought he could get a Korea style settlement. The invasion of Cambodia led to the fall of Sihanouk and the eventual rise to power of Pol Pot. Which caused one of the most terrible post WW 2 genocides.  The death of about 2 millions Cambodians. And Nixon still could not get his Korea style settlement.  If you add up the combination of the Vietnamese and Cambodian fatalities, you come to at least 3.5 million. 

It’s too early to tally all the death for which Trump is responsible.

Quote

To me, the fact that the secret bombing of Cambodia was not included on Nixon's bill of impeachment shows you how cowering congress had become over executive power.

How about Johnson?

There was a peaceful transfer of power under Johnson, and he didn’t encourage his supporters to wage civil war.

Quote

Knowingly reversed Kennedy's foreign policy just about everywhere, but let us just focus on Vietnam and Indonesia. LBJ knew that JFK was withdrawing, he did everything he could to 1.) Reverse that policy, and 2.) Cover up that reversal in order to say he was not really breaking with Kennedy. How does it get worse than that?  He then did what Kennedy would have never done: he started a massive air war over North Vietnam called Rolling Thunder, and he committed combat troops, going up to 530,000 of them. This caused the deaths of about 2.5 million Vietnamese and over 30,000 American soldiers. I don't have to tell you about all the attendant problems that went along with this: the breakdown of the US army, the Golden Triangle, the lack of belief by the public in government etc. And perhaps the worst of all, the path to power for Richard Nixon. What about Indonesia? Knowingly reversed Kennedy's policy there. That one comes in third for fatalities, over a half million. (I try not to differentiate fatalities by skin color.)

We tend to think of the present as being a constant, for the reason that past horrors have a tendency to recede in memory.  This country has not been fortunate in its choice of presidents in recent years. But to hold up Trump as the poster child is, I think, ignoring history i.e. the above. In my position, I cannot do that.

Says the man who ignored Trump’s travesties for 5 years.

Quote

I like and respect you William, please don't join the ranks of the Gallagher Brothers.  I have them on ignore for a good reason. They think smearing me is more important than the JFK case.

Jim doesn’t read my posts but accuses me of “smearing” him?

Some people take it very personally when their claims are challenged.

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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21 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

William, my article was not about Trump.  Neither is my site about the current political scene. My article was about the Insurrection. Do you think I need to be schooled on American History?

How soon we forget W.  He started a war over nothing.  It caused the death of over 600,000 innocent Iraqis.  It destroyed that country and reduced it to rubble.  It completely destabilized the Middle East, so much so that it led to the rise of ISIS.  This has gone on to the point now that the fundamentalist Arabs have more in common with Israel than they do the secular states like Syria. Many would have thought that impossible.

W also wanted to appoint Kissinger to chair the 9/11 investigation.  W also cut taxes on the rich.  He turned a surplus into an almost incurable deficit because of that plus the endless wars in the Middle East. 

How about Nixon?  Nixon knew that the Vietnam War was not winnable in 1969.  He kept it going for four years anyway just so, as in his own words, he would not be labeled as the first president to lose a war.  This caused the death of tens of thousands of American soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese. Then, he did one of the most incredible acts a president could do, he invaded Cambodia and Laos. Because he thought he could get a Korea style settlement. The invasion of Cambodia led to the fall of Sihanouk and the eventual rise to power of Pol Pot. Which caused one of the most terrible post WW 2 genocides.  The death of about 2 millions Cambodians. And Nixon still could not get his Korea style settlement.  If you add up the combination of the Vietnamese and Cambodian fatalities, you come to at least 3.5 million.  To me, the fact that the secret bombing of Cambodia was not included on Nixon's bill of impeachment shows you how cowering congress had become over executive power.

How about Johnson? Knowingly reversed Kennedy's foreign policy just about everywhere, but let us just focus on Vietnam and Indonesia. LBJ knew that JFK was withdrawing, he did everything he could to 1.) Reverse that policy, and 2.) Cover up that reversal in order to say he was not really breaking with Kennedy. How does it get worse than that?  He then did what Kennedy would have never done: he started a massive air war over North Vietnam called Rolling Thunder, and he committed combat troops, going up to 530,000 of them. This caused the deaths of about 2.5 million Vietnamese and over 30,000 American soldiers. I don't have to tell you about all the attendant problems that went along with this: the breakdown of the US army, the Golden Triangle, the lack of belief by the public in government etc. And perhaps the worst of all, the path to power for Richard Nixon. What about Indonesia? Knowingly reversed Kennedy's policy there. That one comes in third for fatalities, over a half million. (I try not to differentiate fatalities by skin color.)

We tend to think of the present as being a constant, for the reason that past horrors have a tendency to recede in memory.  This country has not been fortunate in its choice of presidents in recent years. But to hold up Trump as the poster child is, I think, ignoring history i.e. the above. In my position, I cannot do that.

I like and respect you William, please don't join the ranks of the Gallagher Brothers.  I have them on ignore for a good reason. They think smearing me is more important than the JFK case.

All true...and not forgotten, misunderstood or disagreed upon by at least me and I am sure many others here on or regularly visiting the forum.

Just disagree on Trump though. 

Even though I believe LBJ to be the most vile, depraved and ruthlessly vicious president we've ever had, and Nixon was as corrupted as they come and GW was one of the dumbest, most unqualified and incompetent presidents ever ...

Donald J. Trump takes the cake in pathologic sociopath narcissistic delusion disorder.

The man is pathologically obsessed 24/7/365 with not just increasing his personal wealth ( which his neice Mary Trump says...is never enough ) but also being the center of attention to the same "never enough" degree no matter if gained through amoral, immoral, and even illegal means.

Carried on with a super aggressive willingness to take incredible risks in meeting his never enough self obsessed needs. Pushing and testing every boundary, every rule, every tradition.

Bullying, threatening, inciting others to threaten and intimidate on his behalf.  Hence the January 6th, Capitol Building insurrection attack.

Trump's chaotic behavior emboldened by the Republicans was like giving a super spoiled and abusive child power over his own fearful parents or anyone else that dared stand up to his constant demands and tantrums. An outrageously irresponsible, dangerous and societal harming abdication as we now know.

I've seen a few people ( all men) in my life who like Trump, when present in any social gathering, couldn't help themselves in trying to be the absolute center of attention by the most shameless self-aggrandizing bragging and boasting with claims and heroic achievement story telling so exaggerated, eventually some in their audience would break out in laughter.

Yet, these "I'm the greatest" braggards would still continue with their tall tales despite the embarrasing chuckles all around! It was really kind of pathetic.

Knowing the backgrounds of at least two of these pathological exaggerated claim and lying attention seekers I knew that driving their shameless bragging and lying were some "deep insecurities" born out of some childhood trauma humiliations.

Of course I have no formal or even informal education in human psychology except what I have seen and sensed in my 69 year long working class life experience ... so maybe I'm all wrong on this take on DJT.  Just expressing my opinion as uninformed as it may be.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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21 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

This article is a bit different than the Inevitable Result thread.  I actually tried to draw parallels between the Kennedy case and January 6th.  But if the mods want to move it there, that is ok with me.

I cannot comprehend Caitlin Johnstone's stance on this.  And I compare it to Mark Lane's reaction to A L Wirin's plaint back in 1964 about how we should all thank Earl Warren since what he did prevented pogroms against the left. OMG.  Please not again.

I also revisited that fool Steve GIllon. Was he wrong. Blaming Mark Lane for this.

Please note the link at the bottom.  That is really important.  

BTW, the source for Gore refusing to go to mob tactics was Annette Benning.  

https://kennedysandking.com/articles/caitlin-johnstone-jfk-and-the-insurrection?fbclid=IwAR1E4ySESZl-89NRxr9I4iENmNPN2YKU58f3qdPL7ucZ-T01GPUCEbBSSBI

 

 

Jim - very good article. You of course make yourself a target by saying that Trump wasn’t the all time worst. I gather that your reference to Johnstone isn’t because she mentioned anything about JfK, but rather because she downplayed the seriousness of the DC event. If I’m reading this right, she wrote the article on Jan 7. I’d love to know what she thinks now. I’d also like to know her take on the JFK hit. You think she is more in the Chomsky camp? 

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4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

William, my article was not about Trump.  Neither is my site about the current political scene. My article was about the Insurrection. Do you think I need to be schooled on American History?

How soon we forget W.  He started a war over nothing.  It caused the death of over 600,000 innocent Iraqis.  It destroyed that country and reduced it to rubble.  It completely destabilized the Middle East, so much so that it led to the rise of ISIS.  This has gone on to the point now that the fundamentalist Arabs have more in common with Israel than they do the secular states like Syria. Many would have thought that impossible.

W also wanted to appoint Kissinger to chair the 9/11 investigation.  W also cut taxes on the rich.  He turned a surplus into an almost incurable deficit because of that plus the endless wars in the Middle East. 

How about Nixon?  Nixon knew that the Vietnam War was not winnable in 1969.  He kept it going for four years anyway just so, as in his own words, he would not be labeled as the first president to lose a war.  This caused the death of tens of thousands of American soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese. Then, he did one of the most incredible acts a president could do, he invaded Cambodia and Laos. Because he thought he could get a Korea style settlement. The invasion of Cambodia led to the fall of Sihanouk and the eventual rise to power of Pol Pot. Which caused one of the most terrible post WW 2 genocides.  The death of about 2 millions Cambodians. And Nixon still could not get his Korea style settlement.  If you add up the combination of the Vietnamese and Cambodian fatalities, you come to at least 3.5 million.  To me, the fact that the secret bombing of Cambodia was not included on Nixon's bill of impeachment shows you how cowering congress had become over executive power.

How about Johnson? Knowingly reversed Kennedy's foreign policy just about everywhere, but let us just focus on Vietnam and Indonesia. LBJ knew that JFK was withdrawing, he did everything he could to 1.) Reverse that policy, and 2.) Cover up that reversal in order to say he was not really breaking with Kennedy. How does it get worse than that?  He then did what Kennedy would have never done: he started a massive air war over North Vietnam called Rolling Thunder, and he committed combat troops, going up to 530,000 of them. This caused the deaths of about 2.5 million Vietnamese and over 30,000 American soldiers. I don't have to tell you about all the attendant problems that went along with this: the breakdown of the US army, the Golden Triangle, the lack of belief by the public in government etc. And perhaps the worst of all, the path to power for Richard Nixon. What about Indonesia? Knowingly reversed Kennedy's policy there. That one comes in third for fatalities, over a half million. (I try not to differentiate fatalities by skin color.)

We tend to think of the present as being a constant, for the reason that past horrors have a tendency to recede in memory.  This country has not been fortunate in its choice of presidents in recent years. But to hold up Trump as the poster child is, I think, ignoring history i.e. the above. In my position, I cannot do that.

I like and respect you William, please don't join the ranks of the Gallagher Brothers.  I have them on ignore for a good reason. They think smearing me is more important than the JFK case.

Jim,

       I have a lot of respect for your scholarly work.   It should be in the mainstream media.  And I agree with your points about George W. Bush, Nixon, and LBJ.   They are all responsible for waging disastrous, genocidal wars on a greater scale than the Trump administration's carnage in Yemen, Mosul, Raqqa, and Afghanistan.  And Trump deserves credit for de-funding Operation Timber Sycamore in Syria.  (I hope Biden and Blinken don't drag us back into that proxy war against the Assad regime!)

        Trump told over 30,000 well-documented lies during his four years in the White House, but Dubya Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, et.al., told serious lies about the pretext for invading (and occupying) Iraq.  (I happen to believe that they also lied about the origins and purpose of the 9/11 attacks.)  So, all things considered, perhaps the Bush-Cheney administration lies promoting the "War on Terror" outrank Trump's lies on an "Awfulness" scale.

        As for Kirk and Cliff, they are among my favorite posters here, and I usually agree with them-- not counting Cliff's love of punk rock.

        Being a relative newcomer to the forum, I never have understood the mutual hostility between you, Kirk, and Cliff.  You're all intelligent, informed guys with a lively interest in history and politics.  And you're all honest.

        Personally, I dislike the ad hominem sniping on the forum-- although I was guilty of harassing Rob Wheeler last year about his faith in Trump.

        Surely, we can all disagree from time to time without being disagreeable, can't we?

Edited by W. Niederhut
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Joe:  I agree, that as far as being an egomaniac with a narcissist disorder, Trump is really out there.  But there are those who think that both Nixon and LBJ, especially toward their ends ,were also quite disturbed.  Haig actually told the JCS to not approve of any Nixon order unless it was passed on to him first.

I truly think that McNamara suffered a nervous breakdown because of Johnson's nuttiness over the VIetnam war. Just remember, LBJ actually wanted to continue the war and escalate after Tet!  Even Dean Acheson thought that was nuts.  Dean Acheson!  Then Clark Clifford spent two weeks at the Pentagon and he realized that there was no way to win the war.  He told LBJ and that was it. Finally.

BTW, when I said Nixon knew that the war was not winnable,  its because he heard about all of this. So when he entered office, he and Kissinger understood the war could not be won.  But he continued it, and his Operation LInebacker during the Easter Offensive, and the infamous Xmas bombing, rivaled Rolling Thunder.

Your point about the GOP going along with Trump is a real good one. Kevin McCarthy is going to be the worst Minority leader since Newt Gingrich.  IMO, Trump needs an intervention--but his kids won't do it.

 

Edited by James DiEugenio
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19 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Jim,

       I have a lot of respect for your scholarly work.   It should be in the mainstream media.  And I agree with your points about George W. Bush, Nixon, and LBJ.   They are all responsible for waging disastrous, genocidal wars on a greater scale than the Trump administration's carnage in Yemen, Mosul, Raqqa, and Afghanistan. 

And Somalia.

19 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

And Trump deserves credit for de-funding Operation Timber Sycamore in Syria.  (I hope Biden and Blinken don't drag us back into that proxy war against the Assad regime!)

We never left.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2020/12/25/former-us-envoy-admits-misleading-trump-keep-troops-syris/

19 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

        Trump told over 30,000 well-documented lies during his four years in the White House, but Dubya Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, et.al., told serious lies about the pretext for invading (and occupying) Iraq.  (I happen to believe that they also lied about the origins and purpose of the 9/11 attacks.)  So, all things considered, perhaps the Bush-Cheney administration lies promoting the "War on Terror" outrank Trump's lies on an "Awfulness" scale.

What about American auto-genocide (“We don’t need no stinkin’ mask!”) claiming 3/4 million by the 4th of July?

19 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

        As for Kirk and Cliff, they are among my favorite posters here, and I usually agree with them-- not counting Cliff's love of punk rock.

        Being a relative newcomer to the forum, I never have understood the mutual hostility between you, Kirk, and Cliff.  You're all intelligent, informed guys with a lively interest in history and politics.  And you're all honest.

        Personally, I dislike the ad hominem sniping on the forum-- although I was guilty of harassing Rob Wheeler last year about his faith in Trump.

        Surely, we can all disagree from time to time without being disagreeable, can't we?

Thank you for your kind words.

I relish fact-based debate!  Some aren’t wired for it, take intellectual challenges personally.

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Paul:

That was my point of disagreement with Caitlin. And I do not think she has altered her opinion, or if so, I have not seen it. Although I kind of like her, I think she is one of these structuralists, who would be at home at Counterpunch. I might be wrong, but I have never seen her say anything about JFK, RFK, MLK or the Malcolm X assassinations.

And let me add, from what we are learning, the January 6th insurrection is getting worse by the day. That is why i added that link. Which i advise everyone to read. Steven Gillon is an utter fool.  When you add in the Whitmer case, January 6th was the triumph of the Minutemen.  Whipped along by the RW media and demagogues like Alex Jones, Rudy G, and Trump, I truly think the Insurrection was a real attempt to overturn the election results. And it must be rooted out.

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Thanks for that William. But I don't think I will ever be in the MSM. They just don't like people like me; Cockburn yep because he went along with the JFK cover up.

I thought Trump was going to do something  about the Middle East when he came in.  But if you look at Woodward's book, Tillerson got sidelined by Jared and Jared was buds with Benjy.  And combined, they outflanked Tillerson, and that was about it for any real change in the Middle East. If you listened to my talk at Lancer, I tend to think today that the assassination of Rabin was a real turning point in the Middle East. And this is why JFK Jr decided to print that long article about the assassin of Rabin and he edited that himself.  I think he thought there was a parallel there. Rabin was going to go along with Oslo.  Once he was out of the picture, Oslo was dead in the water.

Thanks again partner.

PS, I corrected an error above.  The Sihanouk removal occurred six weeks before the crazy Cambodian invasion.  It was the secret bombing that undermined him. Kent State and Jackson State followed, examples of Nixon polarizing the country.

Edited by James DiEugenio
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