Mary Moorman

[Jamey Flanagan]

Ok, so forgive me if any of this has been addressed before in other threads. Was watching an interview of Mary Moorman and her describing what all happened during the assassination. Several things jumped out at me. It was a public question and answer type thing and was after the 50th anniversary so significant time had passed. She says the limo never came to a complete stop, but personally I think that all these years of seeing the Z film (along with the fact that she had a camera in front of her face and possibly just didn't see a momentary stop) has maybe tainted her memory. But the limo stop isn't really what this thread is about. I'm wondering just how many pictures she had taken? I have never heard of more than the one. Never seen any more of hers. She said as she took her picture she heard a shot. She was asked if she noticed any distress or anything in the limo and she said no she thought she was gonna get a good picture of JFK smiling and facing her. This leads me to believe she is referring to an earlier photograph. Because she then said after that she heard two more shots. She says she only heard 3 and all sounded like firecrackers to her. She reports the typical bang.......bang, bang heard by the majority of witnesses. But then she also talks about seeing his hair fly up and such associated with the head shot. It's just all a little confusing. And this is over 50 years later so there's that. I know she used a Polaroid camera, right? I vaguely remember those from my childhood but those are the ones where the picture comes out instantly and you gotta kinda wait for it to develope I guess you'd say. Am I correct in all this? So, using a camera like that, would she have had time for more than one picture between the first and third shot? But she says when recounting the events "pictures" as in the plural form. If she did take any more pictures I would think they would be analyzed and be considered important as well if nothing more than maybe capturing faces in the crowd. Am I correct in thinking there is only one picture that Moorman took? You would think that having a camera you would take more than one picture. If nothing else you'd probably take pictures at intervals as the motorcade progressed and would have others besides the one where the President was right in front of you. Maybe not. It's pretty confusing so I just wonder if anyone could clear any of this up or if any of this has been addressed in the past on this forum. Thanks in advance!

[Jamey Flanagan]

Apparently she had taken 5 pictures that day. I've been studying this thing for most of my life and I have yet to my knowledge to see any of the other 4. Have any of you seen any other pictures taken by Moorman? In a case where it seems that every known photograph and every still of every motion picture has seemingly been analyzed in excruciating detail this seems strange to me. Have the other 4 been made public at all? I just wonder what could be on these and if anything can be taken from those to help fill in some of the gaps.

[Jamey Flanagan]

Just to update anyone possibly following this thread and interested. If I'm understanding correctly, there was a picture of Mary herself being Moorman 1. There was a picture of a motorcycle patrolman well in advance of the motorcade with whom she had went to school with. In the interview I'm watching now she hasn't said anything about this next picture I'll discuss but apparently in Dallas police reports they stated that one of her pictures captured the TSBD. So there are 3. She then took a picture of another motorcycle officer she knew which was Lumpkin. She said she gave the picture to officer Lumpkin later and many years later asked him about it and he said he had lost it somewhere along the way at one point possibly when he moved. And then there was the famous Moorman 5 photograph.

[Steve Thomas]

37 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

Just to update anyone possibly following this thread and interested. If I'm understanding correctly, there was a picture of Mary herself being Moorman 1. There was a picture of a motorcycle patrolman well in advance of the motorcade with whom she had went to school with. In the interview I'm watching now she hasn't said anything about this next picture I'll discuss but apparently in Dallas police reports they stated that one of her pictures captured the TSBD. So there are 3. She then took a picture of another motorcycle officer she knew which was Lumpkin. She said she gave the picture to officer Lumpkin later and many years later asked him about it and he said he had lost it somewhere along the way at one point possibly when he moved. And then there was the famous Moorman 5 photograph.

Jamey,

You might want to check out Denis Morrissette's page here:

https://jfkassassinationfiles.wordpress.com/2016/05/27/mary-moorman-photos/

He says that Mary was "acquainted" with Glen C. McBride. I had read once that she had a crush on him and was hoping to get a date.

Steve Thomas

[Jamey Flanagan]

Thanks Steve Thomas! What I found disturbing about the website you linked above was the section where there were a couple of different reports of a street dressed officer possibly firing at an unknown fleeing suspect behind the knoll area. Did you see that?

Edited February 26, 2021 by Jamey Flanagan

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

Thanks Steve Thomas! What I found disturbing about the website you linked above was the section where there were a couple of different reports of a street dressed officer possibly firing at an unknown fleeing suspect behind the knoll area. Did you see that?

Jamey,

Yes. I saw that newspaper article. I wonder if that could be the source of the pool of blood seen at the top of the stairs by several people; although none of the three guys on the stairs reported getting shot.

The reporter misspells Charles Brehm's name wrong in his article.

Steve Thomas

[Joseph McBride]

FYI, she prefers to be called Mary Ann Moorman.

[Jamey Flanagan]

Haha, yeah I saw that in the multi-part interview I watched with her! Lol! I definitely find her more credible than her companion that day, Jean Hill. But her recollection of events seems a little off. Not saying I think Hill is straight up lying, but to put it kindly there does seem to be some embellishment there as the years went by. The story seemed to get bigger with all these other people in it seeming more shady. Almost a complete opposite from Mary Ann Moormon. Moorman seems to naively assume everyone is on the up and up and although she doesn't come out and say it she seems content with the "official" story. Maybe she's just holding back something or maybe she just didn't see anything she considered out of the ordinary. In the one long interview I watched the guy questioning her did ask about the babushka lady and she doesn't recall ever seeing her or anyone like her there close to them. And she had somewhat backtracked a little if I'm not mistaken. She says she had stepped off into the street to take the other pictures but said in that particular interview that she did back up out of the street to the edge of the curb. I still think she was in the street. Unless it has been debunked since, the measurements and recreation that Jack White did to calculate just where she was standing to get the pic lined up seemed pretty sound to me. Then again, I have heard said that the famous Moorman 5 was really taken by the babushka lady. Don't know if that theory would even hold up. If I'm not mistaken there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for chicanery there. Seems to be a pretty tight chain of custody on that picture if I'm not mistaken. Her sequence of events sure sounds strange though. She seems to be talking about that 5th picture, the head shot, but says it was the first shot she heard and then she heard 2 more. Unless as some say that there was a double head shot, and then one of the shots that missed was fired last it just doesn't make sense. Many things in this case don't. But, if that were the case, how does she not hear or recognize the throat shot or any others that may have come before her famous photograph?

[Tony Krome]

Reality;

Moorman had been waiting to take a photo of the Kennedys. She had a Polaroid camera and she had one crack at getting a single photo that captured their faces as they were coming toward her position. She took that photo, and that photo was confiscated by Featherstone.

What is known as the Moorman photo is more than likely a Polaroid photo of a single frame of a moving film.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes;..... I saw a black-and-white film.

 

 

[Jamey Flanagan]

So, has anything ever come to light on this Featherstone guy to lead you to believe that he might not have been on the up and up? I know lots of media people even back then had ties to intelligence agencies somewhere down the line. Anything in his record that is an obvious tie to someone who might have been a figure in the coverup?

[Pat Speer]

Holy moly. It's not all that complicated.

Moorman and Hill were chatting away and didn't pay attention to JFK until he was right upon them. Moorman, who'd taken other Polaroids that day, and who'd taken one of a DPD officer as he rode by, then took her picture of JFK...just as one or more shots rang out. This was the fatal headshot. She then heard one or more shots AFTER this shot. Hill said the same--that the first shot was the head shot, and that shots came after. Charles Brehm, Emmett Hudson, and Malcolm Summers, standing nearby, also heard one or more shots after the headshot. 

IOW, the closest witnesses were quite consistent in that a shot was fired after the headshot. 

The evidence for this is all over my website. But here, in short, is Moorman, and her earliest statements:

Mary Moorman was on the south side of Elm across from the Newmans, and to the east of Toni Foster. She can be seen in the Zapruder film, Nix film, and Muchmore film, as well as stills such as the Bond photo. She took a picture of Kennedy a split second after the impact of the head shot. (11-22-63 article in the Dallas-Times Herald) "“A Dallas woman snapped a candid picture of President Kennedy—then heard the scream, ‘My God, he’s been shot.’ The Polaroid snapshot taken by Mary Moorman, 2832 Ripplewood, shows the President of the United States slumped over the seat of his limousine. His young wife was leaning toward him" (11-22-63 article in the Dallas Times-Herald) "Mrs. Moorman, who snapped a picture just at the time the President was shot, and said: 'I took the picture exactly at the moment the shot rang out. My Polaroid shows Kennedy slumped over in the car and it shows Jackie leaning towards him. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say 'My God, he's been shot.' I heard another shot or two and I turned to my friend and we got on the ground.'" 

(11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H487, 24H217) “As President Kennedy was opposite me, I took a picture of him.  As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and said “My God, he has been shot!” When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all.” (3:16 PM 11-22-63 WBAP TV interview, available on Youtube) (When asked why she took the photo at that moment) “That was the only chance I had. Mine is a Polaroid and I can only take one every ten seconds, and that was at that time, whenever I took it. (When asked if she'd realized he'd been shot when she took the picture) "No I didn't. I must have snapped it immediately when he slumped, cause in the picture that’s the way she’s there and he’s slumped over.” (When asked if she'd seen the shooter) "No, I had taken the picture. And then the shots. And I decided it was time to fall on the ground." (3:30 PM 11-22-63 KRLD radio interview, as transcribed by David Lifton and posted on the Education Forum, 6-30-11, with a few changes) (When asked if she took her Polaroid picture before or after the first shot) “Evidently, just immediately, as the… Cause he was, he was looking, you know, whenever I got the camera focused and then I snapped it in my picture, he slumped over.” (When asked how far away she was from Kennedy at this time) “10 or 15 foot. I know 'cause that's where I had my camera set.”  (When asked where she was standing) “Just a few feet from the underpass" (When asked if she was by the grassy bank) "Yes, that's where we were and I stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.” (When asked if she saw any suspicious persons) "Yeah, of course, I have, I was just uh you know (unclear word) my camera, and when I took that the shots had rang out, and I wasn’t looking around. I hit the ground." (When asked how many shots she heard) “Oh, oh, I don’t know. I think three or four is what I, uh, that I heard…that I’m sure of. Now, I don’t know, there might have been more. It just took seconds for me to realize what was happening. (When asked her first thought) “That those are shots--and that he has been hit. And that they're liable to hit me 'cause I'm right at the car. So I decided that the place for me was to just get on the ground. (When asked Kennedy's response) He grabbed his chest, and, of course, Mrs. Kennedy jumped up immediately and fell over him, and she said “My God, he’s been shot.” (When asked the reactions of others) “Uh, they hesitated just for a moment ‘cause I think they were like I was, you know—'Was that a shot or was it just a backfire, or just what?' And then, of course, he clutched his chest and they immediately sped up, real fast, you know, like to get out of there.  And, uh the police, there were several motorcycles around him, and uh, they stopped, and uh—one or two must have went with him.  And one ran up the hill, and a friend that was with me ran up the hill across the street, from where the shots came from.” (When asked if the shots sounded loud) "Yes, they did. Just like a firecracker going off right at the car." (When asked if they seemed close by) "Yes, uh huh." (When asked where the shots came from) “Oh, just right there at you.”  (When asked if this meant the shots were fired toward her)  “Yes, sir... The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might have been a firecracker right there in that car.” (When asked again if her picture was taken before the shot) “Evidently, at the minute that is, that it hit him because, uh, he was, he was looking, at me, or I mean, he was looking, you know, at the people when my picture came out. They just, just slumped over, so I must have got it. (words, unintelligible).” (When asked if this is shown in her picture) “Yes, uh huh. You could tell he’s clutched. He’s bent over, and she’s…and she hadn’t even gotten up in my picture, and she did get up, stood up, in the car.” (11-22-63 WFAA TV interview, during the evening, many hours after the shooting, as quoted in Pictures of the Pain)  “My picture when I took it was at the same instant that the President was hit, and that does show in my picture…it shows the President, uh, he slumped, Jackie Kennedy was leaning towards him to see, I guess. It all happened so suddenly, I don’t think anyone realized, you know, what had happened.” (About the shots) “There was three or four real close together, and it must have been the first one that shot him, ‘cause that was the time I took the picture, and during that time after I took the picture, and the shots were still being fired, I decided I better get on the ground...I was no more than 15 foot from the car, and in the line of fire, evidently.” (When asked if Mrs. Kennedy screamed after the first shot) "I don't know about the first shot, but she did scream. She says 'My God, he's been hit' or 'He's been shot!'" (When asked if he fell in her arms) "No, I think he just slumped into the seat. She jumped up over him." 

(11-23-63 FBI, report based upon an 11-22-63 interview, 22H838) “She took a second photograph of the President as his automobile passed her, and just as she snapped the picture, she heard what she first thought was a firecracker and very shortly thereafter heard another similar sound which she later determined to have been gunfire.  She knows that she heard two shots and possibly a third shot.  She recalls seeing the President sort of “jump” and start to slump sideways in the seat, and seems to recall President Kennedy’s wife scream “My God, he’s been shot!...She recalls that the President’s car was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry.” 

 

 

[Mark Tyler]

Mary Moorman was a very good witness who gave a clear and lucid account on the day of the assassination:

At 2:26:10

 

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Moorman and Hill were chatting away and didn't pay attention to JFK until he was right upon them. Moorman, who'd taken other Polaroids that day, and who'd taken one of a DPD officer as he rode by, then took her picture of JFK...just as one or more shots rang out. This was the fatal headshot. She then heard one or more shots AFTER this shot. Hill said the same--that the first shot was the head shot, and that shots came after. Charles Brehm, Emmett Hudson, and Malcolm Summers, standing nearby, also heard one or more shots after the headshot. 

Indeed Pat, Moorman and other witnesses are very certain that one or two shots were fired after the head shot.  When I first started studying the witness statements and interviews in 2019 I was quite shocked by this.  For many years I had read books and seen TV presentations about this case and I was always told that the head shot was the final shot.  Quite whether this was poor quality research or a deliberate deceit I'm not sure, but I do feel rather foolish for naively accepting what I was told without checking primary sources.

[Paul Rigby]

12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Reality;

Moorman had been waiting to take a photo of the Kennedys. She had a Polaroid camera and she had one crack at getting a single photo that captured their faces as they were coming toward her position. She took that photo, and that photo was confiscated by Featherstone.

What is known as the Moorman photo is more than likely a Polaroid photo of a single frame of a moving film.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes;..... I saw a black-and-white film.

 

 

Beneath a reproduction of the most famous Moorman-attributed polaroid:

[John Butler]

13 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Reality;

Moorman had been waiting to take a photo of the Kennedys. She had a Polaroid camera and she had one crack at getting a single photo that captured their faces as they were coming toward her position. She took that photo, and that photo was confiscated by Featherstone.

What is known as the Moorman photo is more than likely a Polaroid photo of a single frame of a moving film.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes;..... I saw a black-and-white film.

 

 

I like your idea of a Polaroid of a single frame of a moving film.  All of the relevant films are in color.  But, that's not to say a color film frame could not be shot in a black and white with a black and white Polaroid film or some other film portrayed as a Polaroid.  Or, are there special features of the current Moorman Polaroid that it identifies it as a Polaroid? 

Can you identify the film Kellerman was talking about?

More importantly is the notion that a photo was taken from a film that has the same angle as the Moorman shot.  Perhaps from the films Muchmore, Bronson, and Nix.  Hughes is right for the angle but doesn't show those scenes.    

 

[John Butler]

This is not a good representation of the Moorman Polaroid:

Things are missing from the above when compared to the so-called original.  For instance there is Zapruder on his perch and Bill Newman the one-armed man.:

This photo has been altered to:

This photo is rather strange.  Notice the position of John Connally.  The windshield appears to end on the driver's side, but where is Greer?  Where is Clint Hill we see in other films?

Mary Moorman's photos missing one, given to someone, if I am recalling correctly.  Hill and Moorman:

 

Glen McBride and the too tall tree near the TSBD.  The tree must be covering the men see on the west side of the TSBD:

and,

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by John Butler