Evidence Oswald was on the first floor before and after the shooting

[Gil Jesus]

Evidence Oswald was on the 1st floor before and after the shooting

Oswald’s whereabouts between 11:45am and 12:25pm is documented by 5 different witnesses who claimed to have seen him on the first floor. According to Dallas Homicide Captain Will Fritz, Oswald told him that he was on the first floor in the “Domino Room” at the time of the assassination having his lunch. Fritz testified: “I asked him what part of the building at the time the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor.” 

But it was not until 1997 that Fritz’s notes of his interview of Oswald were released in which Oswald said that he was “out with Bill Shelley in front”.
JFK’s motorcade was scheduled to be at Dealey Plaza at 12:25pm but was 5 minutes late. Oswald was seen on the first floor of the TSBD at 12:25pm by an employee as she was exiting the building. 

That employee was not interviewed by the Warren Commission. 

The “Domino Room” was a recreation room on the first floor where the employees would take their breaks. The lunchroom was on the second floor, but many of the warehouse employees used the first floor “Domino Room” to eat lunch and play dominoes. TSBD witness testimony was unanimous: Oswald ALWAYS ate his lunch in the Domino room-which was on the same floor as the entrance to the TSBD.

11:50 - 12:00 : Oswald on the first floor
At least five witnesses claimed they saw Oswald on the first floor either before or after the shooting.

WITNESS # 1. Charles Givens told the FBI that he saw Oswald reading a newspaper in the Domino room at 11:50 am. Givens testified that when he saw Oswald reading, it was usually “right at lunch time” and Oswald always ate lunch in the Domino Room.

WITNESS # 2. William Shelley gave testimony supporting Oswald being in the first floor Domino Room at 11:50.

WITNESS # 3. Janitor Eddie Piper also saw Oswald on the first floor at about noon.

These sightings of Oswald on the first floor between 11:45 and 12:00 give credibility to Givens’ original account of seeing Oswald reading the newspaper in the Domino Room at 11:50 am. They also imply that Givens, under tremendous pressure, changed his story to not seeing Oswald at all that day.

During questioning by FBI agent James W. Bookhout, Oswald claimed that he saw two “Negro employees” in the Domino Room. One he recognized as “Junior”; the other was a shorter man whose name he did not recall. The “Junior” he referred to was James “Junior” Jarman; the other man was Harold Norman.

In his WC testimony, Jarman admitted being in the Domino Room at the time Oswald said he was, but denied seeing Oswald. He said that after descending from the sixth floor he went to the first floor to wash up. He then picked up his lunch in the Domino Room and went upstairs to the second floor to buy a soda from the machine. He returned to the “Domino Room” where he ate a part of his sandwich while standing, then walked around on the first floor eating his sandwich and drinking his soda.
Harold Norman also ate his lunch in the Domino Room. Although he admitted that there was someone else there with him, he “could not remember who ate in the domino room with me”.

Norman’s lack of memory of who had lunch with him on the day the President of the United States was assassinated is strange. 

He remembered that after eating his lunch, he stood on the sidewalk with Danny Arce. 
He recalled seeing Roy Truly and TSBD Vice President O.V. Campbell and Billy Lovelady outside as well. He said that he returned to the building with James Jarman. 
He remembered coming out of the building after the shooting and seeing Howard Brennan. 
He remembered being interviewed by an FBI agent named Kreutzer on November 26th.

Harold Norman could remember all of these details, but not who he had lunch with in the “Domino Room”. Could the other person in the Domino Room have been Oswald ? 

If Oswald had been on the sixth floor prior to 12:15, as the Commission believed, it was a remarkable coincidence that out of all of the employees of the TSBD, Oswald was able to pick out two who were together as he claimed, on the same floor as he claimed, in the same room as he claimed and at the same time as he claimed.

How could he have known that from the sixth floor ?

12:25 : Oswald seen on the first floor.
WITNESS # 4. Carolyn Arnold told the FBI that as she was leaving the TSBD, she caught a glimpse of someone she thought was Oswald on the first floor. FBI notes indicated that she claimed to have seen Oswald “a few minutes before 12:15". 

But in her original statement she indicated that she left the building at 12:25, a fact that she repeated in a March 1964 affidavit. 
( CD 706, pg. 7 )

If Arnold left the building at 12:25 pm to watch the parade and saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the first floor “standing between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse”, he could not have been the killer of President Kennedy. She could not have mistaken Billy Lovelady for him because Lovelady was outside the building. It also means that the 

FBI lied in its report on the time that she claimed to have seen him. They needed Oswald in the sixth floor window at 12:25, so they changed the time to a few minutes before 12:15, rather than a few minutes after 12:25, in order to give Oswald time to get to the 6th floor.  

Not surprisingly, Arnold was never called as a witness by the Warren Commission.

Oswald on the first floor AFTER the shooting
Ochus Campbell, Vice-President of the TSBD, informed the NY Herald Tribune on 11/23/63 that shortly following the assassination, Oswald was seen on the ground (first) floor near the storage room.
 
WITNESS # 5. Verifying what Ochus Campbell said, Roy Truly told Will Fritz on the day of the assassination that he saw Oswald near the storage room on the first floor as he went inside with officer Marion Baker.

If true, then the whole "lunchroom encounter" was a lie.
 

[James DiEugenio]

Nice summary Gil.  

I tend to agree with that conclusion.

 

[Ron Bulman]

15 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Evidence Oswald was on the 1st floor before and after the shooting

Oswald’s whereabouts between 11:45am and 12:25pm is documented by 5 different witnesses who claimed to have seen him on the first floor. According to Dallas Homicide Captain Will Fritz, Oswald told him that he was on the first floor in the “Domino Room” at the time of the assassination having his lunch. Fritz testified: “I asked him what part of the building at the time the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor.” 

But it was not until 1997 that Fritz’s notes of his interview of Oswald were released in which Oswald said that he was “out with Bill Shelley in front”.
JFK’s motorcade was scheduled to be at Dealey Plaza at 12:25pm but was 5 minutes late. Oswald was seen on the first floor of the TSBD at 12:25pm by an employee as she was exiting the building. 

That employee was not interviewed by the Warren Commission. 

The “Domino Room” was a recreation room on the first floor where the employees would take their breaks. The lunchroom was on the second floor, but many of the warehouse employees used the first floor “Domino Room” to eat lunch and play dominoes. TSBD witness testimony was unanimous: Oswald ALWAYS ate his lunch in the Domino room-which was on the same floor as the entrance to the TSBD.

11:50 - 12:00 : Oswald on the first floor
At least five witnesses claimed they saw Oswald on the first floor either before or after the shooting.

WITNESS # 1. Charles Givens told the FBI that he saw Oswald reading a newspaper in the Domino room at 11:50 am. Givens testified that when he saw Oswald reading, it was usually “right at lunch time” and Oswald always ate lunch in the Domino Room.

WITNESS # 2. William Shelley gave testimony supporting Oswald being in the first floor Domino Room at 11:50.

WITNESS # 3. Janitor Eddie Piper also saw Oswald on the first floor at about noon.

These sightings of Oswald on the first floor between 11:45 and 12:00 give credibility to Givens’ original account of seeing Oswald reading the newspaper in the Domino Room at 11:50 am. They also imply that Givens, under tremendous pressure, changed his story to not seeing Oswald at all that day.

During questioning by FBI agent James W. Bookhout, Oswald claimed that he saw two “Negro employees” in the Domino Room. One he recognized as “Junior”; the other was a shorter man whose name he did not recall. The “Junior” he referred to was James “Junior” Jarman; the other man was Harold Norman.

In his WC testimony, Jarman admitted being in the Domino Room at the time Oswald said he was, but denied seeing Oswald. He said that after descending from the sixth floor he went to the first floor to wash up. He then picked up his lunch in the Domino Room and went upstairs to the second floor to buy a soda from the machine. He returned to the “Domino Room” where he ate a part of his sandwich while standing, then walked around on the first floor eating his sandwich and drinking his soda.
Harold Norman also ate his lunch in the Domino Room. Although he admitted that there was someone else there with him, he “could not remember who ate in the domino room with me”.

Norman’s lack of memory of who had lunch with him on the day the President of the United States was assassinated is strange. 

He remembered that after eating his lunch, he stood on the sidewalk with Danny Arce. 
He recalled seeing Roy Truly and TSBD Vice President O.V. Campbell and Billy Lovelady outside as well. He said that he returned to the building with James Jarman. 
He remembered coming out of the building after the shooting and seeing Howard Brennan. 
He remembered being interviewed by an FBI agent named Kreutzer on November 26th.

Harold Norman could remember all of these details, but not who he had lunch with in the “Domino Room”. Could the other person in the Domino Room have been Oswald ? 

If Oswald had been on the sixth floor prior to 12:15, as the Commission believed, it was a remarkable coincidence that out of all of the employees of the TSBD, Oswald was able to pick out two who were together as he claimed, on the same floor as he claimed, in the same room as he claimed and at the same time as he claimed.

How could he have known that from the sixth floor ?

12:25 : Oswald seen on the first floor.
WITNESS # 4. Carolyn Arnold told the FBI that as she was leaving the TSBD, she caught a glimpse of someone she thought was Oswald on the first floor. FBI notes indicated that she claimed to have seen Oswald “a few minutes before 12:15". 

But in her original statement she indicated that she left the building at 12:25, a fact that she repeated in a March 1964 affidavit. 
( CD 706, pg. 7 )

If Arnold left the building at 12:25 pm to watch the parade and saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the first floor “standing between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse”, he could not have been the killer of President Kennedy. She could not have mistaken Billy Lovelady for him because Lovelady was outside the building. It also means that the 

FBI lied in its report on the time that she claimed to have seen him. They needed Oswald in the sixth floor window at 12:25, so they changed the time to a few minutes before 12:15, rather than a few minutes after 12:25, in order to give Oswald time to get to the 6th floor.  

Not surprisingly, Arnold was never called as a witness by the Warren Commission.

Oswald on the first floor AFTER the shooting
Ochus Campbell, Vice-President of the TSBD, informed the NY Herald Tribune on 11/23/63 that shortly following the assassination, Oswald was seen on the ground (first) floor near the storage room.
 
WITNESS # 5. Verifying what Ochus Campbell said, Roy Truly told Will Fritz on the day of the assassination that he saw Oswald near the storage room on the first floor as he went inside with officer Marion Baker.

If true, then the whole "lunchroom encounter" was a lie.
 

Yes, he ate his cheese sandwich in the Domino room, got a coke then went out front with Shelly per Fritz notes.  Who convinced Baker and Truly otherwise?  Somebody on hand that day.  

[Adam Johnson]

Why has Buell never said, "lee was on the steps/TSBD entrance with me and other staff members in the minutes leading up too and during the shooting"?

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Why has Buell never said, "lee was on the steps/TSBD entrance with me and other staff members in the minutes leading up too and during the shooting"?

Self preservation?

[Andrej Stancak]

On 8/8/2021 at 2:20 PM, Gil Jesus said:

If true, then the whole "lunchroom encounter" was a lie.

Gil:

I posted on your other recent thread on the topic of the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter. Can you have a look? It is related to this thread and it may be useful to keep the posts related to the same topic under one thread.

Anyway, the truth about the second-floor lunchroom encounter appears to be blurred by inaccuracies in witness testimonies, e.g. those of officer Baker, and by an intentional lack of interest in mapping Lee Oswald's movements during the critical time (11:50-12:35 and later).

My view is that Baker did see Lee Oswald for a very brief moment when Baker was just stepping on the second-floor platform and Lee was about to cross from the vestibule to the second floor lunchroom. Barry Ernest wrote a very good piece on the second-floor encounter relying on early witness reports: https://thegirlonthestairs.wordpress.com/2021/03/29/the-lunchroom-encounter/

The scenario which does not require anyone lying is that Lee Oswald was eating his lunch in Domino room and heard the wave of excitement as the motorcade just turned from Main to Houston street. He walked the distance from Domino room to the front glass door, exited through the door and found a spot on the first/second step close to the western wall of the doorway. This would match Lee Oswald's statements given during his Friday 2:15PM interrogation as recorded by the FBI agent James Hosty. Hosty scribbled down Lee's words that clearly informed that he went out to watch "P. parade" and that he had his lunch on the first floor; he went briefly to the second floor to buy Coke to have it with his lunch but returned to the first floor (credit to Mr. Bart Kamp):

Lee stayed in the doorway for about 40-50 seconds, and his presence there is indicated by the Wiegman and Darnell films. He left the doorway just seconds before or after Baker and Truly entered the doorway and walked up to the second floor via the second-floor hallway. As he was passing throuh the vestibule in front of the lunchroom, Baker was able to take a brief glimpse of him, and this motivated Baker to enter the lunchroom and contront Lee Oswald.

It is unlikely that Baker would enter the second-floor lunchroom without seeing someone passing through the vestibule. Therefore, the idea that Lee was in the second floor lunchroom and quitely ate his lunch there until he was suddenly challenged by officer Baker does not sound possible.

Of course, questions arise when considering this scenario, such as why would Lee Oswald go to the second floor lunchroom again after being there some minutes before. I can only offer a speculation - Lee went to the second floor to either check the location of his rifle (if he brought his rifle into the building) or to walk up to the upper floors to find out what happened as the shooting was not something he was told would happen on that day (in case he did not bring his rifle to the building). He may have realised that he would not be able to continue his search in the presence of Baker and Truly and decided to take a different path.

I guess the timing of Lee Oswald's movements leading to the second floor lunchroom encounter while assuming Lee's starting location in the first floor needs to be examined throughly. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Andrej Stancak

[Gil Jesus]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Gil:

I posted on your other recent thread on the topic of the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter. Can you have a look? It is related to this thread and it may be useful to keep the posts related to the same topic under one thread.

Anyway, the truth about the second-floor lunchroom encounter appears to be blurred by inaccuracies in witness testimonies, e.g. those of officer Baker, and by an intentional lack of interest in mapping Lee Oswald's movements during the critical time (11:50-12:35 and later).

My view is that Baker did see Lee Oswald for a very brief moment when Baker was just stepping on the second-floor platform and Lee was about to cross from the vestibule to the second floor lunchroom. Barry Ernest wrote a very good piece on the second-floor encounter relying on early witness reports: https://thegirlonthestairs.wordpress.com/2021/03/29/the-lunchroom-encounter/

The scenario which does not require anyone lying is that Lee Oswald was eating his lunch in Domino room and heard the wave of excitement as the motorcade just turned from Main to Houston street. He walked the distance from Domino room to the front glass door, exited through the door and found a spot on the first/second step close to the western wall of the doorway. This would match with Lee Oswald's statements given during his Friday 2'15 interrogation as recorded by the FBI agent James Hosty. Hosty scribbled down Lee's words that clearly informed that he went out to watch "P. parade" and that he had his lunch on the first floor; he went briefly to the second floor to buy Coke to have it with his lunch but returned to the first floor (credit to Mr. Bart Kamp):

Lee stayed in the doorway for about 40-50 seconds, and his presence there is indicated by the Wiegman and Darnell films. He left the doorway just seconds before or after Baker and Truly entered the doorway and walked up to the second floor via the second-floor hallway. As he was passing from the vestibule in front of the lunchroom, Baker was able to take a brief glimps of him, and this motivated Baker to enter the lunchroom and contront Lee Oswald.

It is unlikely that Baker would enter the second-floor lunchroom without seeing someone passing through the vestibule. Therefore, the idea that Lee was in the second floor lunchroom and quitely ate his lunch there until he was suddenly challenged by officer Baker does not sound possible.

Of course, questions arise when considering this scenario, such as why would Lee Oswald go to the second floor lunchroom again after being there some minutes before. I can only offer a speculation - Lee went to the second floor to either check the location of his rifle (if he brought his rifle into the building) or to walk up to the upper floors to find out what happened as the shooting was not something he was told would happen on that day (in case he did not bring his rifle to the building). He may have realised that he would not be able to continue his search in the presence of Baker and Truly and decided to take a different path.

I guess the timing of Lee Oswald's movements leading to the second floor lunchroom encounter while assuming Lee's starting location in the first floor needs to be examined throughly. 

 

 

 

 

 

After I posted this, I found another document that may support the story that Baker confronted Oswald on the second floor, but NOT in the lunchroom. As I stated, Baker's line of sight was limited, but I believe that he saw Oswald IN THE VESTIBULE as he was LEAVING the lunchroom, not in the lunchroom itself. The document is the statement of Mrs. Robert Reid, who was walking into the second floor office area two minutes after the shooting and saw Oswald coming into the same office area through the back door. That back door is connected to the same vestibule that leads to the lunchroom. Mrs. Reid said she passed Oswald in the corridor and he had a full bottle of Coke in his hand. Keep in mind this would have been only 30 seconds after Oswald was spotted by Baker as he was climbing the rear stairs.

Baker opened the vestibule door, called to Oswald and Oswald returned toward him. Meanwhile Truly had continued up the stairs until he realized that Baker was no longer following him and went back down to find him. Then Truly allegedly vouches for Oswald being an employee and they start back up the stairs. I seems perfectly rational to me that all of this could have taken a total of 30 seconds, leaving Oswald no time to return to the lunchroom and buy that Coke, then leave the lunchroom and be seen by Mrs. Reid.

The point here is that when Baker saw Oswald, he had already purchased the Coke and was on his way back downstairs via the office area. I believe that the evidence shows that when Baker first wrote his "encounter" out, he included that Oswald was drinking a Coke, then crossed it out.

Why would he write that if it wasn't true ?

I believe they changed the whole encounter scenario to fit their predetermined narrative. They had Oswald just getting to the lunchroom seconds before Baker and buying the Coke AFTER the encounter, when in fact Oswald had already purchased the Coke and was leaving the lunchroom when Baker caught a glimpse of him through the window in the vestibule door. I believe Oswald had come up the front stairs from the first floor through the office area, into the vestibule and was returning the same way.

The point of all of this is that the timing doesn't support Oswald coming down the rear stairs from the sixth floor, but rather coming UP from the first floor, where he was seen by multiple witnesses.

That's why he wasn't winded. That's why he was calm.

The guy didn't kill anybody.

 

[John Butler]

On 8/8/2021 at 9:20 AM, Gil Jesus said:

If true, then the whole "lunchroom encounter" was a lie.

Been saying this for years.  However, you have stated it much, much better.  Well said.

Your explanation points out why Fritz and Curry could not put Oswald on the 6th floor during the assassination.  They said this years later.

My explanation for where Oswald or Prayer Man was at during the assassination is from the Martin film rather than Weigman, or Darnell.  IMO, there is an unmistakable Prayer Man figure on Elm Street under the trees taking photos of the p. limo.  You can even see the camera flash.  Oswald, being a combat trained Marine seeks cover and concealment, and beats Baker to the landing of the TSBD by just a few seconds.  You can also see in the Weigman film Prayer Man is still taking photos with a camera flash there on the steps of the TSBD. 

If the figure on Elm Street is not Oswald, then it was an Oswald double.  IMO, something is off with the Altgens 6 photo disguising the Doorway Man figure as Billy Lovelady.  That implies two Oswalds on the 1st floor and on Elm Street and not in the Sniper's Nest.  

Edited August 9, 2021 by John Butler

[Gil Jesus]

9 hours ago, John Butler said:

Been saying this for years.  However, you have stated it much, much better.  Well said.

Your explanation points out why Fritz and Curry could not put Oswald on the 6th floor during the assassination.  They said this years later.

My explanation for where Oswald or Prayer Man was at during the assassination is from the Martin film rather than Weigman, or Darnell.  IMO, there is an unmistakable Prayer Man figure on Elm Street under the trees taking photos of the p. limo.  You can even see the camera flash.  Oswald, being a combat trained Marine seeks cover and concealment, and beats Baker to the landing of the TSBD by just a few seconds.  You can also see in the Weigman film Prayer Man is still taking photos with a camera flash there on the steps of the TSBD. 

If the figure on Elm Street is not Oswald, then it was an Oswald double.  IMO, something is off with the Altgens 6 photo disguising the Doorway Man figure as Billy Lovelady.  That implies two Oswalds on the 1st floor and on Elm Street and not in the Sniper's Nest.  

Baker gave an affidavit of the "encounter" on the day of the assassination. He made no mention of Oswald, no mention of the second floor, no mention of a vestibule, no mention of a lunchroom:

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."

Oswald was seen on the second floor by Mrs. Reid wearing a white T-shirt.

[John Butler]

13 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."

This is primarily what I think about Marion Baker not telling the truth.  Obviously, he came under pressure to change his story once Roy Truly made a statement.  I have even more sinister thoughts concerning Marion Baker, the man with the gun.  He left his post when none others did.  His orders were to stay with the motorcade and protect them.  What would he have done if Roy Truly was not there?