Ted Callaway & The 1:15 Shooting

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh, but you have gotten it backwards. Virtually all the evidence points to a 1:06 shooting. The 1:18 ambulance document is the oddball. So it has the incorrect time, not the death certificate.

I believe that the ambulance document was originally marked 1:08, but was changed to 1:18 so as not to conflict with the revised time of shooting, 1:16.

Here are the TRUE times:  Tippit was shot at 1:06, the ambulance was called at 1:08, the ambulance arrived at 1:10, and the body arrived at the hospital at 1:15, at which time Tippit was pronounced DOA.

 

Sandy,

Excellent post on the timeline.  I am going to make a copy of it.  Timelines are key investigative tools well worth doing.  I was going to ask you about the ambulance times.  But, you have covered that now. 

Still, the time that the ambulance left the funeral home and arrived at the Tippit crime scene needs a time.  There was roughly two minutes at the crime scene and then on to the Methodist Hospital.  The trip to the Methodist Hospital and the unloading of Tipping and getting him into the Emergency Room and a doctor, a quick assessment of Tippit, and a death call at 1:15.  All of this surely took some time.

I am suggesting 10 minutes for the whole event.  1:15 is the documented time of death and must be called by a doctor.  This is documentation that would be accepted in court.  If you add 10 minutes to the 1:18 time the ambulance driver said, then the time of arrival and the Hospital would be 1:28. That is far past any clock error or variance in different clocks.

Folks keep saying that there is a lot of variances in different watches and clocks in times in the past.  I don't think so, there were accurate timepieces in those days.  And, I would expect a hospital to have an accurate clock for this kind of purpose.     

Edited July 17, 2022 by John Butler

[David Von Pein]

47 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I believe that the ambulance document was originally marked 1:08, but was changed to 1:18 so as not to conflict with the revised time of shooting, 1:16.

So how do you account for the fact that the 1:18 ambulance call slip matches nicely with the DPD radio tapes, with the DPD tapes indicating that Tippit's ambulance was communicating via DPD radio in the 1:18 to 1:19 range?

Do you want to suggest that BOTH the Dudley Hughes time clock AND the DPD clocks were BOTH incorrect by pretty much the exact same amount?

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Gil Jesus]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Oh, but you have gotten it backwards. Virtually all the evidence points to a 1:06 shooting. The 1:18 ambulance document is the oddball. So it has the incorrect time, not the death certificate.

I believe that the ambulance document was originally marked 1:08, but was changed to 1:18 so as not to conflict with the revised time of shooting, 1:16.

Here are the TRUE times:  Tippit was shot at 1:06, the ambulance was called at 1:08, the ambulance arrived at 1:10, and the body arrived at the hospital at 1:15, at which time Tippit was pronounced DOA.

 

Here's another goodie:

FBI Memo from Inspector James Malley to SAC Dallas dated 11/28/63 saying, "make sure that our times jibe," meaning if they don't, make sure they do.

If that's not evidence of tampering with the times, I don't know what is.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Sean Coleman]

9 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Here's another goodie:

FBI Memo from Inspector James Malley to SAC Dallas dated 11/28/63 saying, "make sure that our times jibe," meaning if they don't, make sure they do.

If that's not evidence of tampering with the times, I don't know what is.

..also interesting on this memo, regarding WBF & the sack - “…..get him to view it and identify it.” ….ominously suggestive? 
 

[Tom Gram]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Tom, you might want to know that Capt Fritz ordered the detectives to turn the "Oswald" handgun ( serial # V510210 ) and the THREE unfired rounds over to Capt. Doughty at 3:30 pm. This further confounds the chain of possession of the handgun and proves that Sgt. Hill lied when he testified that he was the only one in whose possession the gun was. ( Dallas Police Box 1, pg. 80 )

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217800#relPageId=80

BTW, Doughty, like Lt. Baker, was never called to testify.

Killer stuff Gil, I did not know this. 

And David, I appreciate the reply, but whether or not V510210 was ordered by Oswald is a totally different topic. For the purpose of argument, I will stipulate to it being Oswald’s revolver. 

The point is that it cannot be proved to any acceptable legal standard that Oswald actually had that gun on him in the Texas Theater, period. There is no chain of evidence from the crime scene, and the official chain of custody has several full-blown contradictions that would have been a very big deal if Oswald had made it to trial. 

This is why I specifically asked your opinion on Baker and Bentley. They are the two most basic examples: 1) The officer who recovered the gun didn’t initial the gun at the scene; and 2) An officer who officially never had possession of the gun initialed the gun; it looks like he did so before everyone else; and the WC pretended he didn’t exist. 

The evidence, taken in full, suggests that the arresting officers either a) massively screwed up to the point of jeopardizing the most important piece of evidence in the Tippit case; or b) Were up to something sketchy as all hell. There is no other alternative here. Can you imagine what someone like Mark Lane would have done to these guys on the stand?

In the real world, are cops really that careless when dealing with the alleged murder weapon of a fellow officer? It’s a pretty reasonable question to ask, but I’m not sure that carelessness alone can explain all the contradictions in the record.

[David Von Pein]

21 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

David, I appreciate the reply, but whether or not V510210 was ordered by Oswald is a totally different topic. For the purpose of argument, I will stipulate to it being Oswald’s revolver. 

The point is that it cannot be proved to any acceptable legal standard that Oswald actually had that gun on him in the Texas Theater, period. There is no chain of evidence from the crime scene, and the official chain of custody has several full-blown contradictions that would have been a very big deal if Oswald had made it to trial. 

Well, Tom, can you answer this for me please.....

If the gun taken off of Oswald in the theater WASN'T the V510210 S&W gun that was shipped to Oswald by Seaport Traders, Inc., then how and when did the Dallas Police acquire the V510210 revolver?

Even Oswald himself admits to taking a revolver into the movie theater. And there is no indication that Oswald owned TWO different revolvers.

I guess CTers can speculate that Oswald got ahold of another pistol and it was this "other" gun that was taken off of him in the theater (and you DO believe he WAS caught with a gun on him in the theater, don't you Tom?)....but why would you want to jump through such "another gun" hoops when the logical answer is that the ONE & ONLY handgun known to be owned by Lee Oswald was, indeed, the gun wrested from his grasp in the Texas Theater on Friday, November 22nd?

Shouldn't Occam and his handy Razor apply in this discussion about LHO's gun?

Edited July 17, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Bill Brown]

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Following is Version 5 of my Tippit Scene time line.

(I have multiple versions of the timeline because I adjusted it for every bit of new information that became available to me.)

Note that the timeline consists of a preliminary timeline, followed by a timing analysis, and then the final timeline. (I needed to do a detailed analysis before adding certain individuals for the final timeline.) I retain the preliminary timeline and timing analysis in order to document how the final timeline was developed.

Note that it is quick and easy to read the timeline if you focus on the black text. The gray text provides sources for timeline data.

 

Tippit Scene Timeline (Version 5)

1:06 - Tippit is shot. [Time Sources: Helen Markham & Margie Higgins (in The Girl on the Stairs)]

1:07 - Witness Mrs. Frank Wright calls in the shooting. [Time: Based on Mrs. Frank Wright comments reported in 10/12/64 The New Leader magazine article, page 69.]

1:09 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio. [Time Source: T.F. Bowley. Actually, his statement suggests that his call was made at 1:11 to 1:12, because he said he arrived at 1:10. But this would make Tippit's 1:15 hospital arrival impossibly too quick. So this 1:09 timeline estimate presumes Bowley's watch being off by a minute or two, and that he rounded off to the nearest 5-minute mark to get his "1:10 PM" watch reading.]

1:10 - The ambulance arrives. [Time: Based on Mrs. Frank Wright & Clayton Butler statements reported in 10/12/64 The New Leader magazine article, page 69. Actually, their comments suggest a time of 1:08. But the ambulance cannot have arrived before T.F. Bowley's ~1:10 call. Note also that Bowley said the ambulance arrived "a few minutes" after his call.]

1:11 - Police reserve Sergeant Croy arrives and sees Tippit being loaded into the ambulance. Croy talks to a "hysterical" witness, probably Helen Markham. [Time: Based on Croy's WC testimony, his seeing ambulance being loaded upon his arrival.]

1:12 - The ambulance departs. [Assuming it was there for two minutes. This includes time for radio trouble they reportedly experienced.]

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene. [Time Source: DPD radio log transcript.]

 

Timing Analysis

According to Officer Poe's WC testimony, Walker arrived AFTER he and patrolman Jez arrived. They interviewed an excited Helen Markham, got a description of the shooter, and gave it to Walker for him to broadcast.

So Poe and Jez were the second and third officers to arrive. They arrived some time between 1:11 (Croy's arrival) and 1:17 (if we allow a 5 minute interview with Markham before giving the shooter's description to Walker to broadcast at 1:22).

Virginia and Barbara Davis had to have looked out the door very shortly after the shooting because they saw the gunman flee. Barbara Davis said that after calling the police, she and Virginia went out and to the car. It "wasn't 5 minutes" before the police arrived, according to Barbara. (Virginia said that they had "already arrived." But this cannot be reconciled with other testimony. Note also that Virginia had a habit of using the word "already.")

So the Davises left their house at about 1:08 and arrived at Tippit's car shortly thereafter. And then, within 5 minutes, Officers Poe and Jez arrived. This pegs their time of arrival between 1:12 (after Croy's 1:11 arrival) and 1:13 or so.

 

Tippit Scene Timeline (with Virginia Davis and the first arriving police officers added)

1:06 - Tippit is shot.

1:07 - Witness Mrs. Frank Wright calls in the shooting.

1:07 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law arrive at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house. [Time: Based on the above Timing Analysis.]

1:08 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard. They walk over and see Tippit's body lying on the ground. [Time: Based on the above Timing Analysis.]

1:09 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio.

1:10 - The ambulance arrives and the body is loaded.

1:11 - Croy arrives and sees Tippit being loaded into the ambulance. Croy talks to a "hysterical" witness, probably Helen Markham.

1:11 to 1:12 - The ambulance departs.

1:12 to 1:13 - Officer Poe and Patrolman L.E. Jez arrive, and interview an excited Helen Markham. [Time: Based on the above Timing Analysis.]

1:13 to 1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker arrives. Officer Poe gives Markham's description of the shooter to Walker for him to broadcast. [Time: Based on the above Timing Analysis.]

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene.

 

How do you know that Walker broadcasted the killer's description from the scene at 1:22?

 

[James DiEugenio]

The chain of custody after the fact would have been blown up at trial.

Its that simple. Hill was a born prevaricator.

Edited July 17, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

How do you know that Walker broadcasted the killer's description from the scene at 1:22?

 

It's on the DPD radio log.

 

[Bill Brown]

11 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

It's on the DPD radio log.

 

Good.

 

And what else is on the DPD radio log?

 

At 1:18:38, Butler (ambulance 602) reports on the police radio that they are en route.

At 1:18:59, the ambulance (602) reports to the police dispatcher that they have arrived at the scene.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

So how do you account for the fact that the 1:18 ambulance call slip matches nicely with the DPD radio tapes, with the DPD tapes indicating that Tippit's ambulance was communicating via DPD radio in the 1:18 to 1:19 range?

You can't trust the dictabelts or recordings from them... they've been proven, without a doubt, to be altered. Researchers listening to the recordings have even heard identical segments from two different dictabelts.

The proof is documented here:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/J Disk/Justice Department of/Justice Department of JFK-King Reinvestigation/Item 05.pdf

I believe that the communications related to Tippit were simply moved. Either that or the recorded times changed.

 

[Bill Brown]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You can't trust the dictabelts or recordings from them... they've been proven, without a doubt, to be altered. Researchers listening to the recordings have even heard identical segments from two different dictabelts.

The proof is documented here:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/J Disk/Justice Department of/Justice Department of JFK-King Reinvestigation/Item 05.pdf

I believe that the communications related to Tippit were simply moved. Either that or the recorded times changed.

 

In real time, the tapes are pretty much non-stop once Bowley makes his report on the patrol car radio at 1:17.

 

At 1:22, Walker broadcasted the physical description of the killer.  You've already acknowledged this.

 

What you're dismissing out of convenience is that less than four minutes before Walker's report went out, the ambulance reported that it had just arrived at the scene.  Yet, for some reason, you have the ambulance arriving at 1:10, some twelve minutes before Walker's report went out at 1:22.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

At 1:18:38, Butler (ambulance 602) reports on the police radio that they are en route.

 

At 1:18:59, the ambulance (602) reports to the police dispatcher that they have arrived at the scene.

 

What's your source for the DPD radio transcripts?

 

[James DiEugenio]

Don't hold your breath on that one Sandy.

[Gil Jesus]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

What's your source for the DPD radio transcripts?

 

I'd like to know too because after the ambulance signs off at the scene of the shooting, it never appears on the transcripts again. ( 17 H 408-433 ) I checked the transcript up to 5:22pm ( pg. 433 )  and nothing there.

So what happened to the magic ambulance ?

It was never enroute to the hospital ?

It never arrived at the hospital ?

It never cleared from the hospital ?

Our ambulances always called dispatch ( which I've worked ) on the radio so we could log their times in.

What happened to the ambulance after 1:18 and why isn't it in the transcripts ?

Is it because it was already back in quarters at 1:18 ?

Edited July 18, 2022 by Gil Jesus