Roger Craig's (Lack Of) Credibility

[Bill Brown]

Roger Craig was interviewed in 1968 and in that interview, he stated that Tippit was shot around 1:40. He was immediately corrected by Penn Jones, who told him (Craig) that the Warren Commission determined that the shooting occurred around 1:15. Craig's response to that? "Was it? Oh, that's right."

Then, a few years later, in the early 70's, while writing his manuscript "When They Kill A President", Craig states matter-of-factly that he heard about the shooting over in Oak Cliff on a nearby police radio while he was in Dealey Plaza and he looked down at his watch and noted that the time was 1:06.

Isn't it something that Craig didn't remember this 1:06 police radio stuff while doing the 1968 interview a few years earlier?

Think about it.

 

1968:  No clue what time the Tippit shooting occurred

 

Early 70's:  Heard of the shooting, looked at his watch, 1:06

 

[Michael Griffith]

46 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

Roger Craig was interviewed in 1968 and in that interview, he stated that Tippit was shot around 1:40. He was immediately corrected by Penn Jones, who told him (Craig) that the Warren Commission determined that the shooting occurred around 1:15. Craig's response to that? "Was it? Oh, that's right."

Then, a few years later, in the early 70's, while writing his manuscript "When They Kill A President", Craig states matter-of-factly that he heard about the shooting over in Oak Cliff on a nearby police radio while he was in Dealey Plaza and he looked down at his watch and noted that the time was 1:06.

Isn't it something that Craig didn't remember this 1:06 police radio stuff while doing the 1968 interview a few years earlier?

Think about it.

 

1968:  No clue what time the Tippit shooting occurred

 

Early 70's:  Heard of the shooting, looked at his watch, 1:06

 

These criticisms strike me as a bit hyper-critical and nit-picky. To say he had "no clue" when Tippit was shot in 1968 seems a bit harsh, given that the time he gave was within 34 minutes of the actual time. I would agree that his later account in his book was embellished. Anyway, there is good evidence for Craig's November 1963 account of seeing someone who resembled Oswald run from the rear of the TSBD and jump into a Nash Rambler station wagon. Dr. Michael Kurtz:

Quote

 

There is, in fact, substantial evidence that provides far more corroboration for Craig's testimony than for the totally unsubstantiated statements of Whaley.  Carolyn Walther was watching the motorcade from Houston Street.  She saw a man standing on the fourth or fifth floor in the southeast corner window of the Depository building.  He was holding a gun.  Next to him was a man dressed in a brown sport coat.  Shortly after the assassination, James Worrell saw a man run out of the back of the Depository.  The man was five feet eight inches to five feet ten inches tall, average weight, had dark hair, and was wearing a dark sports jacket.  The man was moving south on Houston Street.

Richard Randolph Carr watched the motorcade from Houston and Commerce streets.  Shortly before the shooting, he saw a man wearing a brown sport coat in an upper floor of the Book Depository building.  A couple of minutes after the shooting, Carr saw the same man walking very fast heading south on Houston Street.  After going around the block, the man entered a grey or green Rambler station wagon.  Marvin Robinson was driving his car west on Elm Street about fifteen minutes after the shooting.  He saw a man come down the grassy incline and enter a Rambler station wagon, which then drove away.

Mrs. James Forrest was standing in a group of people who had gathered on the incline near the grassy knoll.  As she was standing, she saw a man suddenly run from the rear of the Depository building, down the incline, and then enter a Rambler station wagon.  The man she saw running down and entering the station wagon strongly resembled Lee Harvey Oswald.  "If it wasn't Oswald," Mrs. Forrest has declared, "it was his identical twin."  The testimony of Walther, Worrell, Carr, Robinson, and Forrest all provide strong substantiation for Roger Craig's story.

Craig's story is also supported by photographic evidence.  One photograph shows Deputy Craig running toward the grassy knoll.  Another shows him standing near the grassy knoll.  Another shows him standing on the south side of Elm Street looking toward the Book Depository building.  In the same photograph, a light-colored Rambler station wagon can be seen heading west on Elm Street.  In another photograph, Craig is seen looking toward Elm Street in the general direction of the station wagon. . . . (Crime of the Century, 1982, pp. 130-133)

 

 

[Gil Jesus]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Roger Craig was interviewed in 1968 and in that interview, he stated that Tippit was shot around 1:40. He was immediately corrected by Penn Jones, who told him (Craig) that the Warren Commission determined that the shooting occurred around 1:15. Craig's response to that? "Was it? Oh, that's right."

Then, a few years later, in the early 70's, while writing his manuscript "When They Kill A President", Craig states matter-of-factly that he heard about the shooting over in Oak Cliff on a nearby police radio while he was in Dealey Plaza and he looked down at his watch and noted that the time was 1:06.

Isn't it something that Craig didn't remember this 1:06 police radio stuff while doing the 1968 interview a few years earlier?

Think about it.

 

1968:  No clue what time the Tippit shooting occurred

 

Early 70's:  Heard of the shooting, looked at his watch, 1:06

 

You have a problem with someone changing their story a few years later, but you have no problem with Jack Ray Tatum coming forward after 15 years ? That's a story you can believe ?

One of the things we consider when we determine the credibility of a witness is whether or not the statements of that witness are corroborated either by other witnesses or by the evidence. People's time pieces may be a couple of minutes off, but not 10 minutes. Markham approximated 1:06, the police log said after 1:08 and Bowley said prior to 1:10.

Other witnesses who did not see the shooting but heard the shots gave their opinions of the time:

Ted Callaway " about 1 pm" ( 24 H 204 )
Sam Guinyard  "about 1pm" ( 24 H 210 )
Barbara Davis "a few minutes after 1pm" ( CD 87, pg. 556 )
Domingo Benavides " it was about 1 o'clock" ( 6 H 446 )
Francis Kinneth "approximately 1 pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol 25, part 2 of 2, pg. 119 )
Frank Cimino "around 1pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol. 8, pg. 239 )
Mrs. Higgins "heard the shots and ran out her front door to see Tippit lying in the street. She said it was 1:06. She knew that because she was watching TV and the announcer said it. So she automatically checked her clock when he said it and he was right." ( Barry Ernest interview with Mrs. Higgins from his book, "The Girl on the Stairs", 2010 )

Not one witness who saw or heard the shots has ever come forward to say the shooting occurred at 1:15 or 1:16.

Not one witness.

As far as Craig's credibility with regard to a man running down the slope and getting into a Rambler, his credibility is bolstered by the corroborating statements of Helen Forrest, James Pennington, Roy Cooper and Marvin Robinson ( CD 5, pg. 70 ). 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[George Govus]

Thanks, Gil.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

You have a problem with someone changing their story a few years later, but you have no problem with Jack Ray Tatum coming forward after 15 years ? That's a story you can believe ?

One of the things we consider when we determine the credibility of a witness is whether or not the statements of that witness are corroborated either by other witnesses or by the evidence. People's time pieces may be a couple of minutes off, but not 10 minutes. Markham approximated 1:06, the police log said after 1:08 and Bowley said prior to 1:10.

Other witnesses who did not see the shooting but heard the shots gave their opinions of the time:

Ted Callaway " about 1 pm" ( 24 H 204 )
Sam Guinyard  "about 1pm" ( 24 H 210 )
Barbara Davis "a few minutes after 1pm" ( CD 87, pg. 556 )
Domingo Benavides " it was about 1 o'clock" ( 6 H 446 )
Francis Kinneth "approximately 1 pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol 25, part 2 of 2, pg. 119 )
Frank Cimino "around 1pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol. 8, pg. 239 )
Mrs. Higgins "heard the shots and ran out her front door to see Tippit lying in the street. She said it was 1:06. She knew that because she was watching TV and the announcer said it. So she automatically checked her clock when he said it and he was right." ( Barry Ernest interview with Mrs. Higgins from his book, "The Girl on the Stairs", 2010 )

Not one witness who saw or heard the shots has ever come forward to say the shooting occurred at 1:15 or 1:16.

Not one witness.

As far as Craig's credibility with regard to a man running down the slope and getting into a Rambler, his credibility is bolstered by the corroborating statements of Helen Forrest, James Pennington, Roy Cooper and Marvin Robinson ( CD 5, pg. 70 ). 

 

You should remove Helen Forrest from your list. Her name was mentioned in a book by Kurtz, but no one else ever talked to her or even knew who she was. And Kurtz, well, uh, he routinely made up or changed witness statements, and got way with it so long that by his last book he was claiming numerous interviews with key witnesses, many of whom were actually dead at the time he'd supposedly interviewed them. 

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

You have a problem with someone changing their story a few years later, but you have no problem with Jack Ray Tatum coming forward after 15 years ? That's a story you can believe ?

One of the things we consider when we determine the credibility of a witness is whether or not the statements of that witness are corroborated either by other witnesses or by the evidence. People's time pieces may be a couple of minutes off, but not 10 minutes. Markham approximated 1:06, the police log said after 1:08 and Bowley said prior to 1:10.

Other witnesses who did not see the shooting but heard the shots gave their opinions of the time:

Ted Callaway " about 1 pm" ( 24 H 204 )
Sam Guinyard  "about 1pm" ( 24 H 210 )
Barbara Davis "a few minutes after 1pm" ( CD 87, pg. 556 )
Domingo Benavides " it was about 1 o'clock" ( 6 H 446 )
Francis Kinneth "approximately 1 pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol 25, part 2 of 2, pg. 119 )
Frank Cimino "around 1pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol. 8, pg. 239 )
Mrs. Higgins "heard the shots and ran out her front door to see Tippit lying in the street. She said it was 1:06. She knew that because she was watching TV and the announcer said it. So she automatically checked her clock when he said it and he was right." ( Barry Ernest interview with Mrs. Higgins from his book, "The Girl on the Stairs", 2010 )

Not one witness who saw or heard the shots has ever come forward to say the shooting occurred at 1:15 or 1:16.

Not one witness.

As far as Craig's credibility with regard to a man running down the slope and getting into a Rambler, his credibility is bolstered by the corroborating statements of Helen Forrest, James Pennington, Roy Cooper and Marvin Robinson ( CD 5, pg. 70 ). 

 

If you remove Forrest you can add Marion Meharg. Witness to the Rambler who afterwards got mixed up in a bizarre saga with the FBI. Also Richard Randolph Carr. 

[Ron Bulman]

Was it 61 or 62 when Roger Craig was proclaimed, with Sherriff Decker's approval of course, the Sherriff's Department Man of the Year? 

I guess already no one here remembers David Andrews comments on "If Roger Craig Was Wrong, I Don't Wanna Be Right"?

recent 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

Oh please with this guy.  He just runs around making purposely provocative statements.At least DVP contributes photos and films at times.   

I want to quote Gene K :

"You made a statement in public for all to hear.  Are you unable to defend the statements or simply unwilling to have a reasoned discussion?"

https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/upset-wild-sea-lion-gm157308947-4680774

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Bill Brown]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

You have a problem with someone changing their story a few years later, but you have no problem with Jack Ray Tatum coming forward after 15 years ? That's a story you can believe ?

One of the things we consider when we determine the credibility of a witness is whether or not the statements of that witness are corroborated either by other witnesses or by the evidence. People's time pieces may be a couple of minutes off, but not 10 minutes. Markham approximated 1:06, the police log said after 1:08 and Bowley said prior to 1:10.

Other witnesses who did not see the shooting but heard the shots gave their opinions of the time:

Ted Callaway " about 1 pm" ( 24 H 204 )
Sam Guinyard  "about 1pm" ( 24 H 210 )
Barbara Davis "a few minutes after 1pm" ( CD 87, pg. 556 )
Domingo Benavides " it was about 1 o'clock" ( 6 H 446 )
Francis Kinneth "approximately 1 pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol 25, part 2 of 2, pg. 119 )
Frank Cimino "around 1pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol. 8, pg. 239 )
Mrs. Higgins "heard the shots and ran out her front door to see Tippit lying in the street. She said it was 1:06. She knew that because she was watching TV and the announcer said it. So she automatically checked her clock when he said it and he was right." ( Barry Ernest interview with Mrs. Higgins from his book, "The Girl on the Stairs", 2010 )

Not one witness who saw or heard the shots has ever come forward to say the shooting occurred at 1:15 or 1:16.

Not one witness.

As far as Craig's credibility with regard to a man running down the slope and getting into a Rambler, his credibility is bolstered by the corroborating statements of Helen Forrest, James Pennington, Roy Cooper and Marvin Robinson ( CD 5, pg. 70 ). 

 

"You have a problem with someone changing their story a few years later, but you have no problem with Jack Ray Tatum coming forward after 15 years ? That's a story you can believe ?"

 

You continue to make one straw-man argument after another.  I have talked about the Tippit witnesses at least a couple thousand times all over the internet and in none of those discussions do I rely on Jack Tatum in an attempt to prove Oswald's guilt.

 

 

"One of the things we consider when we determine the credibility of a witness is whether or not the statements of that witness are corroborated either by other witnesses or by the evidence. People's time pieces may be a couple of minutes off, but not 10 minutes. Markham approximated 1:06, the police log said after 1:08 and Bowley said prior to 1:10.

Other witnesses who did not see the shooting but heard the shots gave their opinions of the time:

Ted Callaway " about 1 pm" ( 24 H 204 )
Sam Guinyard  "about 1pm" ( 24 H 210 )
Barbara Davis "a few minutes after 1pm" ( CD 87, pg. 556 )
Domingo Benavides " it was about 1 o'clock" ( 6 H 446 )
Francis Kinneth "approximately 1 pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol 25, part 2 of 2, pg. 119 )
Frank Cimino "around 1pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol. 8, pg. 239 )"

 

William Scoggins: "around 1:20"

Virginia Davis: "about 1:30"

Pat Patterson: "approximately 1:30"

Mary Brock: "approximately 1:30" (not a witness to the shooting but saw Oswald 3 to 4 minutes afterwards)

 

 

"Mrs. Higgins "heard the shots and ran out her front door to see Tippit lying in the street. She said it was 1:06. She knew that because she was watching TV and the announcer said it. So she automatically checked her clock when he said it and he was right."

 

So then you should have no trouble providing the film clip of ANY "announcer" proclaiming that the time was 1:06.  Go on.  I'll wait.

 

 

"People's time pieces may be a couple of minutes off, but not 10 minutes."

 

The verbal time stamps on the Dallas Police Tapes may be off by one minute (at the most) "but not 10 minutes".

 

The police tapes, combined with the descriptions of their own actions by Benavides and Bowley, clearly tell you that the shooting occurred right around 1:15.  Even if the tapes are off by as much as one minute, then the shooting occurred around 1:14 to 1:16.  No chance in hell the time stamps are ten minutes off and therefore, no chance the shooting occurred around 1:06.

 

 

"As far as Craig's credibility with regard to a man running down the slope and getting into a Rambler, his credibility is bolstered by the corroborating statements of Helen Forrest, James Pennington, Roy Cooper and Marvin Robinson ( CD 5, pg. 70 )."

 

Well what do you know?  Another straw-man argument (they're adding up).  I haven't seen anyone attack Craig's credibility with regard to a man running down the slope and getting into a Rambler.

[Bill Brown]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Oh please with this guy.  He just runs around making purposely provocative statements.At least DVP contributes photos and films at times.   

I want to quote Gene K :

"You made a statement in public for all to hear.  Are you unable to defend the statements or simply unwilling to have a reasoned discussion?"

https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/upset-wild-sea-lion-gm157308947-4680774

 

 

All bark, no bite.  Or... do you care to address my post?

Edited July 29, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Sean Coleman]

12 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Roger Craig was interviewed in 1968 and in that interview, he stated that Tippit was shot around 1:40. He was immediately corrected by Penn Jones, who told him (Craig) that the Warren Commission determined that the shooting occurred around 1:15. Craig's response to that? "Was it? Oh, that's right."

Then, a few years later, in the early 70's, while writing his manuscript "When They Kill A President", Craig states matter-of-factly that he heard about the shooting over in Oak Cliff on a nearby police radio while he was in Dealey Plaza and he looked down at his watch and noted that the time was 1:06.

Isn't it something that Craig didn't remember this 1:06 police radio stuff while doing the 1968 interview a few years earlier?

Think about it.

 

1968:  No clue what time the Tippit shooting occurred

 

Early 70's:  Heard of the shooting, looked at his watch, 1:06

 

So he made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes that’s why they put erasers on the end of pencils.

 

[Gil Jesus]

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

You should remove Helen Forrest from your list. Her name was mentioned in a book by Kurtz, but no one else ever talked to her or even knew who she was. And Kurtz, well, uh, he routinely made up or changed witness statements, and got way with it so long that by his last book he was claiming numerous interviews with key witnesses, many of whom were actually dead at the time he'd supposedly interviewed them. 

I don't know why these authors do these things. It's like you have to check if they have sources and if they do, then look up the sources to see if that's what the witness said.

For example, Armstrong has Hill asking Oswald if the gun is his and Oswald responds, "No it's the suspect's " ( H&L, pg. 870 ). His reference is Hill's testimony at 7 H 54. But when you look up the testimony, you find out that Hill wasn't even talking to Oswald, he was talking to Det. Bob Carroll, who handed him the gun.

It's very frustrating because when one author makes a mistake, everyone who uses that info will make the same mistake.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Joe Bauer]

I assume Craig had not been focused on or concerned about the Tippit murder report time anywhere near his focus on other things he personally witnessed on 11,22,1963.

Here are some of his 11,22,1963 eye witness account statements that were verified by others.

His and his fellow sheriff's first reactions when hearing the reports around the corner from where they were standing during the motorcade.

His hearing a shrill whistle and seeing someone running down the TXSBD side bank and getting into a rambler type station wagon.

His presence when Constable Seymore Weitzman described the 6th floor found rifle as a "Mauser" which Wieitzman admitted many times he did.

Craig stated he did go to Captain Fritz's office while Fritz was interrogating Oswald. A photo of Craig in the DPD building proves his presence there that day.

When Craig was interviewed in the Mark Lane documentary several years had passed since 1963.

Craig had been shot at, run off a mountain pass road and suffered incredible major life long injuries with pain. He had been harassed off his job. His marriage finally broke up. He had no money.

Give the guy a break. He got some things wrong. In his exhausted state who wouldn't?

The man was completely broken. He killed himself finally at a relatively young age due to the price he paid in choosing to speak out with his story. A story that brought him nothing but great loss misery.

I believed the man.

Even so Craig got some details wrong with things like the Tippit exact time of death ( I don't think he ever even tried to be up on the Tippit case ) and several others his distractors have found and pounded on, when weighed against the things he reported that "were verified" by several other witnesses and photographs, you have a worthy witness imo.

I believe there were scores of Dallas PD members and Dallas County Sheriff Dept. members that were so corrupt and compromised on November 22nd, of 1963 way beyond anything ever suggested about Craig, that Craig detractors are chasing and pounding on the wrong guy. 

Craig did what 99.9% of the Dallas PD and Sheriff officers would not do.

Sacrificed everything by going public with his story which he knew contradicted the official line.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Davidson]

Roger Craig 1963 - My favourite sandwich is ham . 

1968 - My favourite sandwich is cheese 

I mean come on : )

[Joe Bauer]

32 minutes ago, Michael Davidson said:

Roger Craig 1963 - My favourite sandwich is ham . 

1968 - My favourite sandwich is cheese 

I mean come on : )

Ha!

1963 ... Craig:

What kind of underwear was I wearing on 11,22,1963?

"Fruit Of The Loom" I think.

1968 ... "Uh, maybe they were Hanes."

Craig never tried to be an expert on the Tippit Case. Dealing with the murder of the President of the United States was enough for him.

I don't think any of us can truly imagine the powerful emotional and anxiety highs and lows that Dallas police officers experienced the entire weekend of 11,22,1963 through 11,24, 1963.

You just had the President of the United States killed on your beat...and then just two days later the prime suspect is murdered right inside the DPD building while handcuffed to two beefy police security men at his side?

Dallas officials and even their policemen knew the entire world was watching and thinking bad and suspicious things about them over these murders. They knew that many thought Dallas was a place where JFK was hated.

Like Craig, that weekend was incredibly exhausting for so many others in Dallas law enforcement. 

I would even say it was a "Post Traumatic Stress" event for many of them.

Something they might have had bad dreams about the rest of their lives.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Joe Bauer