Into the Nightmare: A Milestone

[James DiEugenio]

So, as far as we can see, the Marie/Edgar Lee story checks out.

You have what appears to be Tippit looking for someone, even down to a phone call at the Record Store.  And you have the other guy, Mentzel, distracted by a car wreck. 

Just recall, this info was given to Marie in the wake of 11/22/63. 

But through some dogged research, it has been fortified.

Now, if this is all so, what is the evidence that the police knew about Oswald early on that day? As I have noted, in the Peterson/Zachry book, The Lone  Star Speaks, Pat Hall, daughter of the owner of the Beckley boarding house, says that she called her mom, since she saw Oswald being escorted out of the Texas Theater.  In that book, the mom told her the FBI was there, but so was a policeman. (p. 175) I don't have to tell anyone the time of this incident.  Plus the fact they were already there.

So, it would seem that with all these corroborating witnesses, the Edgar Lee/Marie testimony is more than likely accurate.

One last point on this: in Joe's interview with Wade, he said, "Somebody reported to me that the police already knew who he was, and they were looking for him." (p. 437)

Edited July 29, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Denny Zartman]

It's hard for me to understand why the LN's are so determined to prove Oswald was Tippit's killer. In my view the official story is plenty suspicious in and of itself and suggests a conspiracy, so it's not like anyone is scoring points for the Lone Nut theory by "proving" LHO did it. At least that's how I see it.

[James DiEugenio]

27 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

It's hard for me to understand why the LN's are so determined to prove Oswald was Tippit's killer. In my view the official story is plenty suspicious in and of itself and suggests a conspiracy, so it's not like anyone is scoring points for the Lone Nut theory by "proving" LHO did it. At least that's how I see it.

I agree, and its pretty obvious the WC did a horrendous job on the Tippit case, even though they suspected something about the radio transcripts.

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

I so it's not like anyone is scoring points for the Lone Nut theory by "proving" LHO did it.

Two killings with no known motive for either one. Fits like a glove with the narrative of the "lone nut".

[Ken Davies]

It actually fits more with the narrative of a set up.

Why did the "lone nut" claim to be a patsy, and not gloat over his feats?

 

 

[Denny Zartman]

3 minutes ago, Ken Davies said:

It actually fits more with the narrative of a set up.

Why did the "lone nut" claim to be a patsy, and not gloat over his feats?

 

 

Exactly. I hate to make Lincoln/Kennedy comparisons, but in the Lincoln assassination there was 1. A conspiracy, and 2. An assassin that couldn't wait to take credit for the deed.

LHO had no motive. Trying to allegedly take a shot at right wing Walker and then allegedly at left wing Kennedy, any presumed political motive makes no sense. The Lone Nut advocates say that he was a little man that wanted to be a big man; to be someone important; to make his mark on history. But how was he going to go down in history by refusing to take credit for it?

The best I've heard from the LN's was that Oswald wanted to reveal himself as the assassin at his trial (as if it would have been some shock to the media) and use his trial as a political soapbox of sorts. I always ask what precedent this has in history. When has any assassin proclaimed their innocence after being accused of a crime and then later proudly took credit for it in court?

[Ron Bulman]

Yes, Tippit was set up.  The cop car in the driveway between the two houses which he blocked when he stopped likely contained his killer.  A contact he didn't suspect but wanted to talk to about where the hell is Oswald?  He was shot to draw the wrath of the DPD down on Oak Cliff, ultimately to the Texas Theater, attention away from the TSBD.  There was no wrath in the DPD about JFK being Assassinated.  As Dr. McBride points out from his interview of detective Leavelle (chained to Oswald when Ruby assassinated him) JFK's death was no more important to the DPD than a N*gger Killin in South Dallas.  But a fellow officer was a much different story. 

Just my take from the book.  If you've read it, please correct me. 

[James DiEugenio]

Now, as I have outlined above, it would seem to me if you were running an inquiry into the Tippit case,  Mentzel and Nelson would be important witnesses.

Go ahead and try and find them in the 888 pages of the Warren Report.

Tell me when you do.

(Sound of crickets in the night)

[Joseph McBride]

Thanks for your kind words about INTO THE NIGHTMARE, Jim.

I appreciated your letting me write a response to that other

author on your website. I usually avoid what Orson Welles

called "that odious thing, 'a reply to the critic,'" but made

an exception in this case because that author maligned a good

source of mine, Edgar Lee Tippit, falsely claiming he

was suffering from dementia. In fact, he was a vigorous

and lucid 90 when I interviewed him, and he was

still working every day as a farmer. https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/myers-dale-with-malice-lee-harvey-oswald-and-the-murder-of-officer-j-d-tippit

Edited July 30, 2022 by Joseph McBride

[Guest]

Seems odd that while the DPD is frenetically redeploying units to deal with the aftermath of Dealey Plaza, one car still had time to leisurely cruise North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Did this police car stop directly in front of your house? Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes-it stopped directly in front of my house and it just “tip-tip” and that’s the way Officer Alexander and Charles Burnely would do when they stopped, and I went to the door and looked and saw it wasn’t their number. Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald when this happened? Mrs. RO~EBTS. In his room. Mr. BALL. It was after he had come in his room? Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. Mr. BILL. Had that police car ever stopped there before? Mrs. ROBERTS. I don’t know-1 don’t remember ever seeing it.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Roberts.pdf

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

The is an interesting point Mike.

Which the WC tried to discount.  But one would have to think again, that it indicated the police somehow knew where Oswald was.

Before they should have.

Edited July 30, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Now that we have laid in the police background of the Tippit case, including a very questionable record of transcriptions--which seemed to improve at each  go round--, the indications TIppit was involved in a manhunt, Nelson's weird reaction to what should have been the same order given to Tippit, and Edgar Lee Tippit's sound information about Mentzel, let us proceed to see what Joe does with the witnesses at the scene.

Joe believes that Clemmons is a key witness, perhaps the most important.  She describes two men on the scene, one the shooter and one appearing to be an accomplice/lookout.  The crucial point is this: neither of them is Oswald. Not even close. (p. 492). And this was going to cause her problems. 

A man with a gun visited her about two days after the shooting. He told her that she might get hurt, "someone would hurt me if I would talk about what I saw.  He just told me it would be the best if I didn't say anything, because I might get hurt."(ibid). This man would appear to have all the earmarks of a Dallas plainclothes detective.  It appears too early for the FBI to be doing a field inquiry. Clemmons ' name must have gotten out through the other witnesses.

Clemmons appeared on camera in 1966 for Mark Lane.  Prior to that she had been interviewed by some researchers  in person and on tape: Golz, Martin, Salandria.  She told Martin that the Dallas police "don't allow me to say anything." When Golz talked to her, one of her sons had a gun on the table.

After the Lane filmed interview, Clemmons vanished.  Researchers tried everything to find her, searching through various databases. (ibid). But Clemmons seemed to be truly fearful about her fate.   After telling Shirley Martin it was two men and they seemed to be talking to each other, she added. "Might get killed on the way to work...They might kill people that know something about it." (p. 493)

As we know both Clemmons and Victoria Adams left Dallas. The DPD did a first rate job in intimidating witnesses who exposed the plot.

Edited July 30, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Try to find Acquilla Clemmons in the index to the 888 page Warren Report.

Let me know when you do.

(Sound of crickets in the night.)

[James DiEugenio]

Domingo Benavides, a car mechanic, was approaching the scene in his pick up truck.  He had a good view of the gunman from about fifteen feet away.

But he declined to identify the man as Oswald.  Benavides took cover and pulled his truck to the curb when he heard the shots go off. He told the Commission he hid in his truck for "just a few minutes."  Fearful the gunman would return. (p. 471)

When describing the suspect for the Commission, Benavides did not describe Oswald.  It was the wrong height, body type and complexion. (p. 476). He said he looked like he needed a haircut for about two weeks. He was not escorted to a line up.  As Lane commented, he would have been a good witness for the defense.

But then, but then.  As Joe writes, the police habitually harassed and threatened Benavides. His brother Eddy, who resembled him, was shot to death in a Dallas bar in February of 1965.  As W said, MIssion  Accomplished. In 1967, under the watchful eye of trustworthy Eddie Barker, Domingo did his back flip: Oswald was the gunman. 

[James DiEugenio]

Who could possibly condone the tactics used by the DPD in these two instances.

In a real case, the defense would have brought these things up in court or in camera before the judge.

At the very least, the jury would have been allowed to hear about it.

SInce it forms a pattern, the judge might have even dismissed the case.

But that is the real world, not the fairy tale world of the Warren Commission.

Edited July 30, 2022 by James DiEugenio