The (laughable) SBT

[Denny Zartman]

1 hour ago, Dave Chrisman said:

 

He doesn't care. Anyone feel sharpened by the steel, yet?

A better use for this thread would be to discuss why some people insist that they actually believe in the single bullet theory. No reasonable adult who knows anything at all about this case believes that fantasy. It's strange that this forum constantly indulges the fantasies of someone who refuses to look at facts again and again. In fact, this type of person is welcomed back into the forum even after being kicked out for thievery.

You can show them a picture of a test bullet fired into a cadaver wrist and compare it to CE 399, and they don't care at all that they look nothing alike. You can show them a picture of another test bullet fired into cotton wadding and compare it to CE 399, and they don't care that they look identical. You can show them footage of doctors who were actually there saying that the bullet was still in Connally's thigh, and they still insist the bullet fell out on its own, cleaned off all the blood, tissue, bone, and clothing fibers, climbed onto a different stretcher, and rolled itself under a mat. You can tell them the bullet that was found had a pointed nose and that CE 399 has a rounded nose. You can tell them all that and more. It means nothing to them, yet people here still engage them as if they were reasonable.

JFK's back wound was found to be shallow. The single bullet theory ends there.

JFK's doctor - the man credited with directing the autopsy and the only medical professional who saw JFK's body at both Parkland and Bethesda - refused to agree with the Warren Commission on the number of bullets that had entered JFK's body. What does a reasonable person take away from that fact?

[David Von Pein]

59 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

You can show them a picture of a test bullet fired into a cadaver wrist and compare it to CE 399, and they don't care at all that they look nothing alike.

That's because the cadaver bullet was fired DIRECTLY into the cadaver's wrist, which doesn't in any way simulate the double-man wounding of the SBT. So it's a mystery to me why CTers keep pretending--year after year--that test bullet CE856 mirrors the situation that existed in Dealey Plaza with the SBT.

~big shrug~

Edited September 27, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Dr. Robert Shaw (Chief Of Thoracic Surgery) at Parkland never stated that the bullet that went into Connally's thigh fell out and was found on a stretcher in his national news interview on 11,22,1963.

I would think he would have mentioned that the thigh bullet dislodged itself so they didn't have to remove it.

Via the Warren Commission testimony of Dr. Charles F. Gregory (one of Governor Connally's physicians at Parkland). Emphasis added by DVP:

DR. GREGORY -- "I think again that bullet, Exhibit 399, could very
well have struck the thigh in a reverse fashion and have shed a bit of
its lead core into the fascia immediately beneath the skin, yet never
have penetrated the thigh sufficiently so that it eventually was
dislodged and was found in the clothing. I would like to add to that we
were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. Here was our patient
with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient
magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought
to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if
it could be identified or found, rather."

[Source: 4 H 125.]

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Dave Chrisman said:

Thank you Vince Palamara for making these available on your channel.

Exactly...thank you Vince. The lower video says it all.

My goodness...the misinformation regards the provenance of the pristine bullet is incredible.

[Karl Hilliard]

22 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Dave, you’re quoting the bible to an atheist 

Crock-ola.  Quite the opposite. 

Quote

At the news conference, Dr. Perry answered a series of hypothetical questions and stated to the press that a variety of possibilities could account for the President's wounds. He stated that a single bullet could have caused the President's wounds by entering through the throat, striking the spine, and being deflected upward with the point of exit being through the head.183 This would have accounted for the two wounds he observed, the hole in the front of the neck and the large opening in the skull. At that time, Dr. Perry did not know about either the wound on the back of the President's neck or the small bullet-hole wound in the back of the head.

Quote

Speculation.--It is inconceivable that the doctors at Parkland Hospital did not turn the President over on his face and notice the bullet hole in the back of his neck.

Commission finding.--Doctors at Parkland Hospital have testified that the President remained on his back while he was at Parkland Hospital for treatment and that they did not turn him over at any time; they were busy trying to save his life. Consequently, they were never aware of the hole in the back of his neck until they were notified of it later.14

So ...the Parkland Drs were just told about the hole in the back of the neck.

23 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Sean,

The Warren Commission definitely was NOT forcing itself into accepting the Single-Bullet Theory at all costs...  

 

Quote

The Commission, however, did not conclude the single-bullet theory had been proven, as three members of the body, Representative Hale Boggs, Senators Richard Russell and John Cooper thought the theory improbable.^[33] Russell requested that his opposition to the theory be stated in a footnote in the report.^[34] In the end, the Commission changed the word "compelling" to "persuasive" and stated: "Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot hit Governor Connally, there is very persuasive evidence to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President's throat also caused Governor Connally's wounds."^[35]

The Warren Report has been demonstrated as being false doctrine...a phony gospel...and hardly biblical creed and more like dogma crap. Why is it [the SBT] still called the single bullet theory after 60 years if it is indeed factual canon?

[Karl Hilliard]

On 9/26/2022 at 1:11 PM, Sean Coleman said:

 

 Duplicate post...Sorry about that--    😕

Edited October 2, 2022 by Karl Hilliard

[Sandy Larsen]

On 9/26/2022 at 2:49 AM, Chris Bristow said:

 I saw the Myers video test firing into several feet of pine and retrieving a near pristine bullet.

 

Shooting into solid wood is nothing but a parlor trick. Think about it...

As the bullet travels through the material, it naturally attempts to deform by expanding in diameter. But it cannot do so because it is surrounded by the material. The surrounding material greatly resists expansion of the bullet laterally, and so the bullet exits the other end in much the same shape as it entered. Or stops midway if all the energy is expended before reaching the other end.

To perform this trick, you just need to choose a material soft enough that it won't smash the bullet before it fully enters the material. Apparently pine in one such material.

In contrast, if the bullet hits a hard bone, the bone will fracture and there will be nothing to prevent the bullet from deforming. And so it will.

 

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Shooting into solid wood is nothing but a parlor trick. Think about it...

As the bullet travels through the material, it naturally attempts to deform by expanding in diameter. But it cannot do so because it is surrounded by the material. The surrounding material greatly resists expansion of the bullet laterally, and so the bullet exits the other end in much the same shape as it entered. Or stops midway if all the energy is expended before reaching the other end.

To perform this trick, you just need to choose a material soft enough that it won't smash the bullet before it fully enters the material. Apparently pine in one such material.

In contrast, if the bullet hits a hard bone, the bone will fracture and there will be nothing to prevent the bullet from deforming. And so it will.

 

That's what I would think. Good one, Sandy. Pine would probably split easily too. Good combination. Relieves the front of the bullet but constrains the expansion. Don't know it for a fact but makes sense.

[Joe Bauer]

Blluet Found On Stretcher Versus Bullet Removed From Connally's thigh.

Is this confusing or what? 

Mr. SPECTER - What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck?
Dr. SHAW - I feel that

>>>>> there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399<<<<<

without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet.
(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES - Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound of entry, could you tell at all?
Dr. SHAW - Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I can't testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I think, was there at the time that >>>>>the debris was carried out <<<<< and he may have more knowledge than I have.

Mr. DULLES - Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a bullet which had been found on the stretcher?
Dr. SHAW - No; this was later knowledge.
Mr. DULLES - When did you first hear that?
(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)
Dr. SHAW - This information was first given to me by a man from the Secret Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It is the first time I knew about any bullet being recovered.

WC testimony of Dr. Charles Gregory:

Mr. SPECTER - What other wounds, if any, did you notice on the Governor at that time?
Dr. GREGORY - In addition to the chest wound and the wound just described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect of his left thigh. This was almost round and did not seem to have disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass through the skin and to the fascia beneath. I could not tell from the superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. An X-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. Repeat X-rays failed to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to reveal any wound of exit.
Mr. SPECTER - What did the X-rays reveal with respect to the presence of a missile?
Dr. GREGORY - In the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps 1 mm. by 2 mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh or a wound of that character.

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Chris Bristow]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Shooting into solid wood is nothing but a parlor trick. Think about it...

As the bullet travels through the material, it naturally attempts to deform by expanding in diameter. But it cannot do so because it is surrounded by the material. The surrounding material greatly resists expansion of the bullet laterally, and so the bullet exits the other end in much the same shape as it entered. Or stops midway if all the energy is expended before reaching the other end.

To perform this trick, you just need to choose a material soft enough that it won't smash the bullet before it fully enters the material. Apparently pine in one such material.

In contrast, if the bullet hits a hard bone, the bone will fracture and there will be nothing to prevent the bullet from deforming. And so it will.

 

Yes that is the point that I was trying to make. But I didn't consider the point you made about the boards limiting any deformation. The fact that the bullet did not be deform when hitting the first Pine board when it was moving at full velocity proves that Pine is not hard enough to deform the bullet. As I recall from Google even the hardest type of pine is only about 60 or 70% the density of human bone.

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Yes that is the point that I was trying to make. But I didn't consider the point you made about the boards limiting any deformation. The fact that the bullet did not be deform when hitting the first Pine board when it was moving at full velocity proves that Pine is not hard enough to deform the bullet. As I recall from Google even the hardest type of pine is only about 60 or 70% the density of human bone.

As an old woodworker, let me add...you can shoot with the grain, and it goes easy.

If you shoot against the grain, it goes tough. 

2x4s, 4x4s etc are cut with the grain, of course.

You can pound a nail into the end of 2 x4 easily.

Driving the nail sideways into the board takes more effort. 

Pine is a very soft wood. Try shooting into oak, if you likely get different results. 

 

[Pete Mellor]

When the laughable SBT is pontificated upon, it is also necessary to include consideration of the 3 hulls found on the 6th floor of the TSBD, particularly CE543.

See Ed Forum posts from 2009 here:- 

 

[Karl Hilliard]

On 9/27/2022 at 8:23 AM, David Von Pein said:

Via the Warren Commission testimony of Dr. Charles F. Gregory (one of Governor Connally's physicians at Parkland). Emphasis added by DVP:

DR. GREGORY -- "I think again that bullet, Exhibit 399, could very
well have struck the thigh in a reverse fashion and have shed a bit of
its lead core into the fascia immediately beneath the skin, yet never
have penetrated the thigh sufficiently so that it eventually was
dislodged and was found in the clothing. I would like to add to that we
were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. Here was our patient
with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient
magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought
to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if
it could be identified or found, rather."

[Source: 4 H 125.]

What wasn't highlighted------

Quote

that bullet, Exhibit 399..... eventually was
dislodged and was found in the clothing.

So no matter how you slice it...the [CE399 was found on some random stretcher] story meant that it was just planted "evidence" and had nothing at all to do with the governor's wounds.

[Joe Bauer]

27 minutes ago, Karl Hilliard said:

What wasn't highlighted------

So no matter how you slice it...the [CE399 was found on some random stretcher] story meant that it was just planted "evidence" and had nothing at all to do with the governor's wounds.

Connelly's own surgeon Dr. Robert Shaw didn't see the injuries causing bullet at the time of surgery? He only "heard" about it weeks later when the SS told him about it's discovery on a stretcher?

Come on.

Shaw told the WC flat out he didn't think the "pristine bullet" could have been the one that caused all of Connelly's wounds.

[Michael Griffith]

On 9/25/2022 at 3:48 PM, David Von Pein said:

I wonder how many conspiracy theorists endorse Dr. Cyril Wecht when he continually goes on TV and radio and tries to sell his bucket of anti-SBT crap to the world, armed with his silly argument about the test bullet seen in Warren Commission Exhibit No. 856, with Wecht acting as though the CE856 test bullet took the very same path through TWO bodies that CE399 took through the bodies of JFK and John Connally in Dallas.

Conspiracy theorists can't (or won't) see that JFK and Governor Connally are reacting to their bullet wounds at the exact same time in the Zapruder Film clip below. No matter how many times the anti-SBTers watch this clip, they will never admit to themselves what they are obviously seeing--two men being hit by the same bullet:



And take note of Jackie Kennedy's reactions in the above Z-Film clip too. She kind of "springs" up in her seat and then puts both of her hands on JFK's left arm. But Jackie only STARTS TO REACT (as she moves her arms and her body toward JFK) AFTER Z226 or so.

But if we're to believe the HSCA's timing for the SBT, JFK was struck by a bullet back at about Z190. But Jackie doesn't react and try to aid her husband until after approximately Z226. Just a coincidence? Did Jackie have a "delayed reaction" too?

In reality, Jackie Kennedy's reactions (and her reaching out with both of her hands to aid her husband shortly after Z225) are reactions that are perfectly consistent with a bullet striking President Kennedy at around Z224. She is "reacting" at almost the exact same time as the two victims.

Here's a slow motion version:



IMO, Jackie's movements are somewhat difficult to explain and reconcile if JFK had been struck as early as Z190 or so. She doesn't move toward her injured husband until AFTER the men reappear from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

I suppose that could conceivably just be a coincidence (because we ARE only talking about 1.86 seconds in real time--between Z190 and Z224), but there's no question in my mind that Jackie Kennedy's movements and reactions as she MOVES TOWARD JFK after Z225-Z226 are certainly not INCONSISTENT with the SBT occurring at Z224.

In fact, the more I focus on JUST JACKIE in the above Zapruder Film clips, the more I think her reactions and movements fully buttress the "Z224 SBT Hit" even more solidly than ever.

David Von Pein
August 26, 2010
Revised September 13, 2015


 

Here's what I wonder: I wonder how anyone in 2022, after all we now know, can get on a public forum and defend the single-bullet theory, especially with such utterly erroneous, ridiculous material.

The back wound was shallow and had no exit point. The bullet that struck JFK's back was traveling at a slightly upward trajectory, and JFK was never leaning far enough forward to make any vertical SBT trajectory possible. JFK and Connally were never aligned in a way that would make the SBT possible. There was no hole through JFK's tie and no nick on the edge of the tie. The holes in the front of JFK's shirt were slits made by one of the nurses. Only by assuming a far-fetched bunching of both JFK's coat and his shirt in nearly perfect millimeter-for-millimeter correspondence can one put the back wound where the WC placed it. JFK is clearly, clearly, clearly reacting to severe external stimulus before Connally even begins to turn to his right--anyone who denies this is either blind or is dissembling. There is no path from the back wound to the throat wound that would not have done severe damage to the spine, as Dr. Mantik has proved. CE 399 was planted and looked nothing like the bullet that was "found" at Parkland Hospital. Etc., etc., etc.