What Did JFK Do that Caused Certain Powerful People to Have Him Killed?

[Michael Griffith]

11 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

NSAM 263 was an obvious culprit-- suspiciously reversed by LBJ, McGeorge Bundy, et.al., within a few days of JFK's murder, by NSAM 273.

And let's not forget about Allen Dulles and Indonesia.

Destiny Betrayed describes that history quite cogently. James DiEugenio, Fletcher Prouty, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott, et.al., have made a very clear case for foreign policy reversals resulting from 11/22/63.

What's truly amazing to contemplate is the highly successful, multi-year cover up of the truth about those post-JFK foreign policy reversals by LBJ and the Mockingbird mainstream media-- involving everyone from David Halberstam to Ken Burns.  

 

11 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

NSAM 263 was an obvious culprit-- suspiciously reversed by LBJ, McGeorge Bundy, et.al., within a few days of JFK's murder, by NSAM 273.

I used to believe this as well, but I think a closer look at NSAM 263 and related evidence casts doubt on this interpretation. Plus, if Vietnam was a major motive for the conspirators, they certainly did not act like it during the four years when LBJ and McNamara were disastrously bungling the war effort. 

And let's not forget about Allen Dulles and Indonesia.

Yes, I think this was part of the overall Dulles-CIA factor. 

Destiny Betrayed describes that history quite cogently. James DiEugenio, Fletcher Prouty, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott, et.al., have made a very clear case for foreign policy reversals resulting from 11/22/63.

I agree with about 85% of Destiny Betrayed. However, I would not touch Fletcher Prouty's nonsense with a 10-foot poll. He was a borderline quack, possibly even a plant in the research community. His attacks on Edward Lansdale were baseless, reckless, and downright nutty. Prouty was even more of a clown than the ARRB exposed him to be. I highly recommend historian Max Boot's highly acclaimed 768-page biography of Lansdale: The Road Not Taken: Edward Lansdale and the American Tragedy in Vietnam (2018).

What's truly amazing to contemplate is the highly successful, multi-year cover up of the truth about those post-JFK foreign policy reversals by LBJ and the Mockingbird mainstream media-- involving everyone from David Halberstam to Ken Burns.  

I certainly agree that the news media engaged in a massive cover-up about JFK's death, RFK's death, and certain CIA crimes, but I don't quite get how Halberstam and Burns could be included in the list of offending journalists. For example, Burns' "documentary" on the Vietnam War is disgraceful--it mostly parrots North Vietnamese, Soviet, and Chinese Communist propaganda about the war, although it does correct a few--just a few--of the errors/omissions in the 1983 PBS documentary on the war. 

[Paul Cummings]

I believe toward the end of fall 1962 is when things really started ramping up against JFK.

[W. Niederhut]

41 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

 

NSAM 263 was an obvious culprit-- suspiciously reversed by LBJ, McGeorge Bundy, et.al., within a few days of JFK's murder, by NSAM 273.

I used to believe this as well, but I think a closer look at NSAM 263 and related evidence casts doubt on this interpretation. Plus, if Vietnam was a major motive for the conspirators, they certainly did not act like it during the four years when LBJ and McNamara were disastrously bungling the war effort. 

And let's not forget about Allen Dulles and Indonesia.

Yes, I think this was part of the overall Dulles-CIA factor. 

Destiny Betrayed describes that history quite cogently. James DiEugenio, Fletcher Prouty, John Newman, Peter Dale Scott, et.al., have made a very clear case for foreign policy reversals resulting from 11/22/63.

I agree with about 85% of Destiny Betrayed. However, I would not touch Fletcher Prouty's nonsense with a 10-foot poll. He was a borderline quack, possibly even a plant in the research community. His attacks on Edward Lansdale were baseless, reckless, and downright nutty. Prouty was even more of a clown than the ARRB exposed him to be. I highly recommend historian Max Boot's highly acclaimed 768-page biography of Lansdale: The Road Not Taken: Edward Lansdale and the American Tragedy in Vietnam (2018).

 

Michael,

   There has been a lot of defamatory CIA/Mockingbird garbage written about Col. Fletcher Prouty during the past 30 years.  Don't believe it.  We've discussed the subject at length on several threads here.

   Prouty was the precise opposite of a quack.  He was the Joint Chiefs liaison to the CIA in 1963, and participated (with General Victor Krulak)  in writing the Taylor/McNamara Report in the fall of 1963.

   He also worked with Ed Lansdale for years at the CIA's Saigon Station.  He was a firsthand witness of CIA history.

   But Lansdale and CIA propagandists later promoted the fiction that Prouty was a mere pilot and quack who was uninvolved in the CIA ops which he exposed.  It was a "kill the messenger" op, similar to what happened to Oliver Stone after 1991.

   Instead of reading Max Boot's garbage, try reading Prouty's books, The Secret Team and JFK-- The CIA, Vietnam, and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy.

Edited September 29, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[David Boylan]

In this interview with Wheaton, conducted by William Law and Mark Sobel, Wheaton opened up to a limited degree about what he had witnessed. The following quotes are excerpted from the interview [ iv ], which can be watched in its entirety by clicking the image above.

"Carl Jenkins was a retired high-level paramilitary specialist for the CIA.....He headed up the largest covert base in Laos during the secret CIA wars over there when the open war was going on in Vietnam.....[Jenkins] invited me to stay in their home.....In 1985 he [Jenkins] became my Washington representative when I took over as Vice President for a cargo airline called National Air.....I was like a brother to Carl.....Carl was the head recruiter and trainer of the Bay of Pigs invasion for the assassins and saboteurs that were going into Cuba for the pre-invasion to lay the groundwork for the Bay of Pigs.....He trained the 17, 18, 19 year old exiles and became their father figure.....Chi Chi Quintero became like a son to Carl.....He [Quintero] and two or three others, Felix Rodriguez, Nestor Pino, all went to Vietnam with him.....Chi Chi was a shooter. He was trained by I.W. Harper.....There was a CIA funded program to assassinate Castro and Carl was in charge of training the Cubans from Miami.....They were the ones that diverted the Castro assassination funds and training for their own agenda to snuff Kennedy.....They had a thing called a triangulation shooting team.....[Describing the Bay of Pigs and JFK backing off the air strike] They were furious and still are to this day.....And there was another clique above them.....they would reminisce about the past and what went wrong and what went right....."

[Chuck Schwartz]

David , I could not find the image above to click on.  So , can say who formed the clique above them?

[Paul Brancato]

37 minutes ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

David , I could not find the image above to click on.  So , can say who formed the clique above them?

Second this. Also, I recall Quintero saying that if he told all he knew it would be explosive. 

[Michael Griffith]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Michael,

   There has been a lot of defamatory CIA/Mockingbird garbage written about Col. Fletcher Prouty during the past 30 years.  Don't believe it.  We've discussed the subject at length on several threads here.

   Prouty was the precise opposite of a quack.  He was the Joint Chiefs liaison to the CIA in 1963, and participated (with General Victor Krulak)  in writing the Taylor/McNamara Report in the fall of 1963.

   He also worked with Ed Lansdale for years at the CIA's Saigon Station.  He was a firsthand witness of CIA history.

   But Lansdale and CIA propagandists later promoted the fiction that Prouty was a mere pilot and quack who was uninvolved in the CIA ops which he exposed.  It was a "kill the messenger" op, similar to what happened to Oliver Stone after 1991.

   Instead of reading Max Boot's garbage, try reading Prouty's books, The Secret Team and JFK-- The CIA, Vietnam, and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy.

I've read Prouty's The Secret Team. Have you read Boot's book? 

Good heavens, just go read Prouty's ARRB interview. Holy cow. How anyone can read that interview and still believe Prouty is a reliable source is beyond me. 

If Prouty had had any idea what he was talking about, he would have known that Lansdale was one of the good guys in the CIA and that Lansdale frequently disagreed with the CIA's approach and frequently clashed with his CIA bosses and peers.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Richard Price]

I will add my speculation to the above possibilities.  I think the one thing that really pulled all the pieces together was the back channel and presumably verifiable talk of taking LBJ off the ticket for 1964.  LBJ was pushed into a corner just as Trump is now.  The one big difference is that LBJ had a way of having opponents "removed" when they got in his way, whereas Trump (as far as we currently know) tends to stall, litigate and bluster.  LBJ was facing being removed from the White House (his lifelong dream of being President), being prosecuted for his ties to various possibly criminal acts which would remove him from any chance to ever be President and possible jail time.  He, as everyone around him knew, was quite prescient about politics and power.  He also was quite ruthless and willing to do whatever it took to have power and retain power.  I think all the many people suggested have some of the means and opportunities to start the process, but without the "cover" of someone in the absolute highest power seat, things could go horribly wrong and heads would roll (possibly literally).  LBJ filled this bill exactly, so I think when he started back channel chatter among the proper people about something happening to the President, I think the fuse was lit and there was no going back.  The fact that the assassination happened the very same day that LBJ was subject of discussion at the Capitol shows to me that this was the last possible chance for his and the cabal's success.  The fact that the assassination happened in Texas, which LBJ could completely control also adds to the scenario.  When you are talking about the planned murder of the President, this is the only absolutely foolproof way of all the participants getting what they wanted without risk of reprisal/retribution/punishment.  Exactly how the scenario played out is not provable, but without LBJ either starting the plan or actively participating, it would not have worked without consequences for some or all the parties, PERIOD.

[David Boylan]

1 hour ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

David , I could not find the image above to click on.  So , can say who formed the clique above them?

Chuck and Paul,

Here is the full essay - https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_The_Wheaton_Lead.html

Here is the Wheaton Interview. Thanks to Wiiliam Law for this!

 

[David Boylan]

From the The Red Bird Airport Leads:

 

“[Wayne ], I tell you. I was a mercenary pilot, hired by the CIA. I was involved in the Bay of Pigs planning strategy which was operated by the CIA. I was there involved with many of my friends when they died, when Robert Kennedy talked John Kennedy out of sending in the air cover which he agreed to send. He cancelled the air cover which he agreed to send. He cancelled the air cover after the invasion was launched. Many, many died. Far more than was told. I don’t know all that was going on but I do know that there was an indescribable amount of hurt, anger and embarrassment of those involved in the operation. … They are not only going to kill the President; they are going to kill Robert Kennedy and any other Kennedy that gets into that position. …You will see…They want Robert Kennedy real bad.” - Cuban pilot.

[Michael Griffith]

1 hour ago, Richard Price said:

I will add my speculation to the above possibilities.  I think the one thing that really pulled all the pieces together was the back channel and presumably verifiable talk of taking LBJ off the ticket for 1964.  LBJ was pushed into a corner just as Trump is now.  The one big difference is that LBJ had a way of having opponents "removed" when they got in his way, whereas Trump (as far as we currently know) tends to stall, litigate and bluster.  LBJ was facing being removed from the White House (his lifelong dream of being President), being prosecuted for his ties to various possibly criminal acts which would remove him from any chance to ever be President and possible jail time.  He, as everyone around him knew, was quite prescient about politics and power.  He also was quite ruthless and willing to do whatever it took to have power and retain power.  I think all the many people suggested have some of the means and opportunities to start the process, but without the "cover" of someone in the absolute highest power seat, things could go horribly wrong and heads would roll (possibly literally).  LBJ filled this bill exactly, so I think when he started back channel chatter among the proper people about something happening to the President, I think the fuse was lit and there was no going back.  The fact that the assassination happened the very same day that LBJ was subject of discussion at the Capitol shows to me that this was the last possible chance for his and the cabal's success.  The fact that the assassination happened in Texas, which LBJ could completely control also adds to the scenario.  When you are talking about the planned murder of the President, this is the only absolutely foolproof way of all the participants getting what they wanted without risk of reprisal/retribution/punishment.  Exactly how the scenario played out is not provable, but without LBJ either starting the plan or actively participating, it would not have worked without consequences for some or all the parties, PERIOD.

Oh, shoot! I forgot about this important factor. Yes, LBJ was about to be engulfed in a serious scandal, a scandal that Bobby was helping to fuel with leaks to selected journalists. Also, LBJ may have learned that JFK was gonna drop him from the ticket in '64 regardless of the scandal. There is some anecdotal evidence that indicates that LBJ had advance knowledge of the assassination. The plotters surely did not want to wait until LBJ was forced to resign, because JFK would have replaced him with someone who was less corrupt.

According to Evelyn Lincoln, JFK was considering NC Governor Terry Sanford as his new VP. Interestingly, we know that JFK met with one of Sanford's top aides at the White House. The fact that JFK was considering Sanford is interesting because Sanford was a fiscal conservative and supported taking power from the federal government and giving it back to the states. He opposed segregation and was generally left-of-center on most issues while in the Senate, but not radically so. As a Senator, he supported a bill that would have mandated a balanced federal budget. He also voted to confirm most of Reagan's judicial nominees, including Anthony Kennedy and Antonin Scalia, although he voted against Robert Bork

[John Kennedy White]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I don't disagree with all of the above...but also, the JFKA may have been independently carried out by mid-level or lower CIA operatives connected to the Miami station.

That is, Cuban exiles and CIA mercenaries angered by what they perceived as betrayal on the battlefield by JFK, in which their brothers were killed (Bay of Pigs).  

The cover-up had to happen so that the public did not find out it was CIA operatives who did the deed. 

"Yes, JFK was shot by CIA operatives, but they were rogue, and LHO was CIA too"---that's a PR black eye to the moon. 

So, we got the WC....

The cover-up is worse than the crime? Maybe, although in this case, extra-ugly all around. 

 

 

This 100%. Also RFK's continued endorsement of partnering the mafia with CIA mercenaries to take out Castro gave them leverage against any formal, public investigation knowing that plan could not be publicly surfaced.

[W. Niederhut]

5 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

I've read Prouty's The Secret Team. Have you read Boot's book? 

Good heavens, just go read Prouty's ARRB interview. Holy cow. How anyone can read that interview and still believe Prouty is a reliable source is beyond me. 

If Prouty had had any idea what he was talking about, he would have known that Lansdale was one of the good guys in the CIA and that Lansdale frequently disagreed with the CIA's approach and frequently clashed with his CIA bosses and peers.

We've discussed the ARRB Prouty interview at length on the forum.  He recognized Joannides in the room, and realized the gig was up.

Try reading Prouty's book on the CIA, Vietnam and JFK's assassination.

Lansdale was one of the "good guys," eh?  Which is why he joked about throwing guys out of helicopters while running his CIA black ops in Vietnam?

Let's not forget that Lansdale was Allen Dulles favorite black ops guy, after his black ops/psy ops success with Magsaysay in the Philippines.  

IMO, obscuring the CIA's and Lansdale's true history was a major motive for the CIA smear campaign against Prouty during the past 30 years-- especially after he and Krulak identified Lansdale in the Dealey Plaza photo.  

It's similar to what the CIA did to Jim Garrison and Oliver Stone-- repeating tropes that they were/are "quacks," "flakes," "pseudo-historians," etc.  (And recall that Prouty consulted with both Garrison and Oliver Stone, to get the truth out about JFK's murder.)

In a sense, the CIA/Mockingbird attacks on particular JFKA investigators may well be a clue about who was on the right trail.

One other interesting thing about Prouty is that he was a rare firsthand witness/participant in a lot of CIA and Lansdale ops, but never had to sign a CIA non-disclosure agreement, because he was an Air Force guy, not CIA.

Edited September 29, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[James DiEugenio]

MIKE,

Are you being for real about the ARRB and Prouty?

That was an ambush, which Fletcher sensed after about the third question. And he told Len Osanic about it when he got home.

This was exposed by the man who I think is the finest archival researcher there is right now: Malcolm Blunt. And if he had not unearthed this material we would never have known about people like the ARRB's Dennis Quinn and Tim Wray--who both left the Board after--who were setting up the ambush. (Quinn tried to halt the medical inquiry.) IMO, neither should have been employed by that body.

That material by Malcolm was then supplemented by communications with Doug Horne who gave us inside info on the perps--Wray and Quinn-- and why they did it.  For you to take that whole ersatz exercise at face value--a la Fred Litwin-- shows that you were willing to accept the worst implications about the whole set up--without digging behind the scenes to see how it was stage managed. I wrote this piece, but it could not have been written without Malcolm, Horne, Palamara, and Len Osanic.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/fletcher-prouty-vs-the-arrb

 

I really do not see how you could have had no reservations about the Board, if you had studied anything about how it was set up, and who was on it.  Plus some of the things they said on the subject. Plus the fact that as Horne said, about 2/3 of the employees were WC supporters.

If you do not know this, Fletcher Prouty wrote a long essay back in about 1986 on the Vietnam War.  If you have not read it you don't know what you are talking about..  That long essay had all the major points that Newman brought out in 1992 in his over 400 page book: the intel deception, Kennedy's disagreement with his advisors, how NSAM 263 and the Taylor/McNamara report were written etc. The only way Fletcher  could have known this was  being on the inside.

And as shown above, unlike what Quinn said, there were military supplements for Kennedy's visits;  VInce proved that.  And Prouty did have evidence, as did the ARRB, that there was an offer to extend the same in Dallas. For whatever reason, it was not accepted.

 

PS William got the point about Johannides wrong.  That was not for the ARRB, it was the HSCA.

PPSS: Max Boot?  Please read this and take special note about near the end.   https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/max-boot-vs-jfk-revisited-202201021703

Boot tried to accuse JFK of attempting to topple Lumumba!  How can anyone take such a person seriously?  The man who never met a war he did not like.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Joe Bauer]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

Lansdale was one of the "good guys," eh?  Which is why he joked about throwing guys out of helicopters while running his CIA black ops in Vietnam?

Let's not forget that Lansdale was Allen Dulles favorite black ops guy, after his black ops/psy ops success with Magsaysay in the Philippines.  

Really ruthless killing in the Philippines.