The Killing Floor

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I think you're falling into the trap Salandria explained years ago, Ben:  The WR, flimsy, lie-filled, and contradictory was. *designed* to eventually fall apart, revealing a series of puzzles that we would chase our tail endlessly trying to solve.  For two purposes:  (1) to leave the message that powerful people actually did it, they're in control, and there is nothing anyone can do about it and  (2) more important for our purposes here, to distract people from confronting the real, threshold question the WR claimed to answer:  did Oswald do it from the 6th floor window?

I think not and I think you agree.  But there is work remaining to firm up that answer enough so that even DVP runs out of sophistry, and the public can be convinced so as to allow a real investigation into what happened.

If Oswald didn't do it, we already know someone else did from somewhere at present unknown.  Their trail keeps getting colder.

I suppose it's possible that you will someday prove that others were at the window, beyond the claims of a few witnesses, they did it, and then solve the puzzle of how they got out of there undetected.  Seems awfully unlikely.

Instead I'd like to urge you, and everyone else, to not be distracted by secondary puzzles and use your time and considerable intellect to focus on that threshold question--did Oswald do it from the 6th floor window. 

RO-

OK, "Did LHO shoot JFK from the 6th Floor window?"

1. If LHO did, someone else was shooting also. The shots strike JBC (Z-295) and JFK (Z-213)  in too-rapid succession to have been issued from a single-shot bolt-action rifle. Also, there is a small round bullet hole in the rear of JBC's shirt. Ergo, no tumbling bullet. 

2. My guess is LHO shot at JFK and missed, intentionally, ala the Walker shooting. That explains the wild miss that struck the curb near James Tague. LHO was then made the patsy by the real perps. 

3. The real perps may have been in the TSBD, or maybe the Dal-Tex building, and also on the GK. The GK gunman may have been only a diversion. 

4. Likely, LHO was murdered to silence him. 

That's about as far as I get. 

Just IMHO....

 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Exactly where do you have Dougherty at the time of the shooting?

I don't know. He said he ate lunch in the Domino room. But he may have been in the bath room when the actual shots were fired. In any event, he was almost certainly somewhere near the back of the building seeing as he didn't hear any shots. 

[Tony Krome]

18 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I don't know. He said he ate lunch in the Domino room. But he may have been in the bath room when the actual shots were fired. In any event, he was almost certainly somewhere near the back of the building seeing as he didn't hear any shots. 

In his hand-written affidavit, he states he did he hear a shot, then after that, he went downstairs. He writes that he was "working on the sixth floor today" which means he filled out his affidavit on that Friday.

1. Can you explain why you believe this affidavit is false?

2. If Dougherty was not on the 5th/6th floor in the minutes either side of the assassination, and did not hear any shots, why then was he bought before the WC?

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Here is an example of what I am talking about with hiding exculpatory material and how it can get a case thrown out:

https://rollcall.com/2014/10/28/recalling-the-injustice-done-to-sen-ted-stevens-commentary/

This is the real world.

When I interviewed Bob Tanenbaum, real world prosecutor, this is one of the things that shocked him also.  namely the amount of exculpatory material that the WC discarded.  Coming from real world homicide cases, you just did not do that. Because you ran the risk of getting the case thrown out. But, that's the real world.  The guys on the WC knew they ran no such risk. 

Oh, not even!

A well-funded aggressive defense counsel would have sought out exculpatory evidence and witness statements, conducted its own investigation--we do not even know what evidence or witness statement have been lost.

We largely only know what the WC and FBI wanted us to know, plus some other information that leaked out. 

However, it remains that LHO was almost surely a CIA asset, and very possible that elements of the CIA did the JFKA.

That sets up that LHO was somehow involved---maybe only as an unwitting patsy, but involved. Which explains why LHO was also murdered. 

Just IMHO....

PS Never trust a government investigation of itself, or a government investigation in which there is not forceful and equal defense counsel. 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

I agree, that this case would have never even gotten THAT far.  And that all four would have testified at a real legal proceeding.

But what I am trying to say that hiding exculpatory evidence has serious consequences in the real world.

 

[Ron Bulman]

16 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Gerry Hemming and others posited that the elevator shaft was used, and was used for that deliberate purpose.

I would be curious if the reason for the elevator being non-working at the time of the shooting was ever chased down; was it because an employee left the door open on another floor, or if it was due to a power issue.

 

Not to distract from the thread topic but the elevator(s) are an interesting subject in conjunction with the electricity being off.  The passenger elevator near the front of the building Vicki was trying to take up five minutes after the assassination only went up to the fourth floor.

I always thought the electricity was only off a minute or two.  Based on the lady covering the front desk (power and phones off at the time of the assassination), and, Truly trying the freight elevator.  From memory, it was stuck on the 4th or 5th floor when he, with Baker tried to access it with him calling for it then taking off up the stairs when there was no response.

The elevators/escape of the men on the sixth floor has always been intriguing to me.   

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

In his hand-written affidavit, he states he did he hear a shot, then after that, he went downstairs. He writes that he was "working on the sixth floor today" which means he filled out his affidavit on that Friday.

1. Can you explain why you believe this affidavit is false?

2. If Dougherty was not on the 5th/6th floor in the minutes either side of the assassination, and did not hear any shots, why then was he bought before the WC?

He was told there were shots. He subsequently said "Well, that loud sound I heard must have been a shot." But he only heard one and the loud sound he heard came from directly above him over by the elevators, and not from the open windows directly below the assassination window. It follows then that he heard something other than a shot. He was also consistent in that he returned to work five minutes or so after the shots were fired. And well, hell, if one assumes he was correct then it seems likely the loud sound he heard had something to do with Baker and Truly coming down from the roof. 

And, by golly, Truly said he saw Dougherty on the fifth floor as he came down in the elevator. That Dougherty returned to work AFTER the shooting thereby becomes the only logical conclusion...one which the WC staff avoided like the plague. 

From reading all the testimony, moreover, it becomes clear that they knew this. If not, they would have asked Piper at what time he talked to Dougherty after the shooting. In fact, they probably did ask him this...just off the record. And when he didn't tell them what they wanted to hear they both failed to ask him about it on the record, and bad-mouthed him in the Warren Report--saying he was confused while at the same time using him as a witness against Adams.

 

[Pat Speer]

3 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Not to distract from the thread topic but the elevator(s) are an interesting subject in conjunction with the electricity being off.  The passenger elevator near the front of the building Vicki was trying to take up five minutes after the assassination only went up to the fourth floor.

I always thought the electricity was only off a minute or two.  Based on the lady covering the front desk (power and phones off at the time of the assassination), and, Truly trying the freight elevator.  From memory, it was stuck on the 4th or 5th floor when he, with Baker tried to access it with him calling for it then taking off up the stairs when there was no response.

The elevators/escape of the men on the sixth floor has always been intriguing to me.   

The freight elevators were not stuck on the upper floors due to a power outage. They were stuck up there because the east elevator could not be called to another floor, and the west elevator could only be called if the gates were pulled down.  Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth, and left the gate up so they could use it to come down. And Williams is presumed to have taken the east elevator down from the sixth to the fifth. So both elevators would have been stuck on the fifth, precisely as claimed by Baker and Truly. 

It seems clear, moreover, that Dougherty took the west elevator back up after the shooting. So how did it get down? Someone must have taken it down. But not any of the fifth floor witnesses. They raced down to the fourth floor where they  ran into some women who were looking out the west side windows. 

[Joseph McBride]

Frank Capra told me that during World War II, when

he was in the Army making propaganda films, he

was walking through a warehouse full of paper military records

with a higher-ranking officer. Capra asked what they

do when such a warehouse becomes full. The officer

smiled and said, "We have a fire."

[Ron Bulman]

29 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

The freight elevators were not stuck on the upper floors due to a power outage. They were stuck up there because the east elevator could not be called to another floor, and the west elevator could only be called if the gates were pulled down.  Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth, and left the gate up so they could use it to come down. And Williams is presumed to have taken the east elevator down from the sixth to the fifth. So both elevators would have been stuck on the fifth, precisely as claimed by Baker and Truly. 

It seems clear, moreover, that Dougherty took the west elevator back up after the shooting. So how did it get down? Someone must have taken it down. But not any of the fifth floor witnesses. They raced down to the fourth floor where they  ran into some women who were looking out the west side windows. 

So, the fifth-floor witnesses rushed down to the fourth floor and ran into Vicki, and Sandra?

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

So, the fifth-floor witnesses rushed down to the fourth floor and ran into Vicki, and Sandra?

No, they had already left. They ran into Vicki's boss, Peggy Ann Garner, and some other unnamed women from the 4th floor. 

[Bob Ness]

20 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

And if LHO wasn't the sixth-floor sniper, then the question needs to be asked --- How, then, did the real 6th-floor assassin(s) manage to avoid being seen by Garner, et al, in the minutes following JFK's murder?

That is certainly a legitimate and valid question that has never been satisfactorily answered (IMO) by any conspiracy theorist.

But who are you asking? Ask the Warren Commision! They were supposed to find that out! Why do you think people who volunteer to find information without any investigative authority or agency should be responsible for that?

This is a redirect away from Oswald's assumed guilt fortified by what can generously be described as tainted testimony and evidence. A "whatabout". The subject in the case is how did the DPD, Warren Commission and FBI so badly bungle something as rudimentary as gathering and transcribing witness testimony? It's nice of you to try to get to the bottom of it David. How can you seriously countenance several examples of clear and unambiguous manipulation strategically entered into the record only to perform as evidence to implicate one person?

The Supreme Court just months before the JFKA ruled on Brady vs. Maryland and sited a 1942 case, Pyle vs. Kansas, that " ... imprisonment resulted from perjured testimony, knowingly used by the State authorities to obtain his conviction, and from the deliberate suppression by those same authorities of evidence favorable to him. These allegations sufficiently charge a deprivation of rights guaranteed by the Federal Constitution, and, if proven, would entitle petitioner to release from his present custody.

So yes. Apparently Oswald, had it gone to trial, would have had a very strong case to have the whole nine yards thrown out. I suspect this was standard procedure in those days, especially in Texas with the DPD (but also elsewhere), to the point that these prosecution and investigative techniques went on without anyone having to say anything. 

Maybe you have no idea what the South and other areas of the US were like in the 60's. Many of the people we're talking about were wearing Klan robes on their time off you know. You seem to think the WR is biblical truth or something. IMO it's at best a rushed compendium of conveniences and directives put together to mollify and comfort (or perhaps camouflage) and reach a conclusion that accomplishes those goals.

[Joseph McBride]

Retired DPD detective Morris Brumley, who had

known J. D. Tippit since they grew up together,

pulled out his wallet during our interview and, with

my tape recorder running on the table in front of us,

showed me his KKK membership card and started

bragging about his violent activities against Black

men. Brumley claimed he was "infiltrating" the Klan

for the Dallas Police Department. I told that to

a Dallas-area JFK researcher, who told me about

three-fourths of the Dallas Klan in those days

were police officers.

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

He was told there were shots. He subsequently said "Well, that loud sound I heard must have been a shot." But he only heard one and the loud sound he heard came from directly above him over by the elevators, and not from the open windows directly below the assassination window. It follows then that he heard something other than a shot. He was also consistent in that he returned to work five minutes or so after the shots were fired. And well, hell, if one assumes he was correct then it seems likely the loud sound he heard had something to do with Baker and Truly coming down from the roof. 

And, by golly, Truly said he saw Dougherty on the fifth floor as he came down in the elevator. That Dougherty returned to work AFTER the shooting thereby becomes the only logical conclusion...one which the WC staff avoided like the plague. 

So you have Dougherty hearing no shots, and you have him returning to work after the assassination. In other words, everything was like a regular lunch break, and a regular return to work after the lunch break.

Since he did not hear any shots, did not see Truly and Baker rush across the first floor, and did not hear Truly yelling out twice for the elevator, you have him in the bathroom.

You then have Dougherty taking the west elevator up to the 6th floor for his return to work, then take the elevator back down to the 5th where he heard a loud noise. You are suggesting this noise was made by Truly/Baker above him. On the 5th is where he is seen by Truly as he comes down from the roof.

Do I have this correct?

 

 

[Bob Ness]

3 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

Retired DPD detective Morris Brumley, who had

known J. D. Tippit since they grew up together,

pulled out his wallet during our interview and, with

my tape recorder running on the table in front of us,

showed me his KKK membership card and started

bragging about his violent activities against Black

men. Brumley claimed he was "infiltrating" the Klan

for the Dallas Police Department. I told that to

a Dallas-area JFK researcher, who told me about

three-fourths of the Dallas Klan in those days

were police officers.

Yeah this gets lost pretty easily. Even in Seattle where I grew a lot of the Cops were rotten and wouldn't think twice about framing someone up for just about anything. I guess a lot of the LN's look at these people as choir boys or have Jack Webb embedded in their brains. The LEO's today as a whole are fairly straight up in my experience. There's always exceptions but in those days it was more the rule.