How did Oswald just happened to get a job at the place where he was needed to be the patsy?

[Matt Allison]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The purpose of this thread is to show, as simply as possible, that the plotters had to somehow have gotten Oswald the job at the TSBD. That there is just no way around it... at least not for reasonable people who wouldn't think the the plotters needed virtually no planning, and would rely on luck in choosing an assassination site.

And the problem is you're so married to that speculative theory that you're now ignoring all the evidence that contradicts it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

And the problem is you're so married to that speculative theory that you're now ignoring all the evidence that contradicts it.

Which is, of course, the organizing principle of Sandy Larsen's presence on this forum.

[Joe Bauer]

On 10/27/2022 at 8:05 PM, Tom Gram said:

Oswald could’ve been placed in the TSBD in advance just in case, and the other plots could have been arranged in the same way.

Absolutely.

Planning a JFK visit with a motorcade through downtown Dallas, including through Dealey Plaza, was certainly thought of before just two months prior to 11,22,1963.

Hindsight yes, but Dealey Plaza should have been cleared of crowds and open windows for the motorcade. Those two 90% turns there ( or one and another long 134% turn) plus the long grassy knoll hiding scene and the overpass were obvious reasons for this. And the crowd there was relatively small compared to main street and not worth all those logistical security risks.

But maybe TXSBD owner D.H. Byrd insisted on his building employees getting a "byrds" eye view of JFK and Jackie?

Sylvia Odio fainted when she first saw TV news video of Lee Harvey Oswald as the one and only suspect in the JFK killing.

She recalled Leopoldo telling her that this loco American Leon told Leopoldo that the Cubans didn't have any guts. They should have gone after JFK for his Bay Of Pigs abandonment. Leopoldo told Ms. Odio this at the very end of September 1963.

Before Oswald got the TXSBD job.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

There's no evidence for that. The original plan was for the lunch to be at the Statler Hilton, which means the motorcade would have ended a mile before ever getting near Dealey Plaza.

If there was a plan months in advance to put Oswald on a potential parade route, anywhere along Main would have been a far better choice.

But there wasn't a plan months in advance to do that, as I feel I've more than amply demonstrated.

The evidence for that is the 1960 motorcade. DP, and the TSBD specifically, could have been chosen strategically during site selection as the best if not only possible location for a successful assassination and frame up  - and the plan would have been aborted if everything didn’t line up just right. 

I think the opportunistic scenario you are describing is very plausible too, but we simply do not have enough information to completely rule out the possibility that Oswald was maneuvered into the TSBD. The coffee klatch story doesn’t even need to be a lie. If the CIA was involved in the assassination, we’re talking about the top experts in the world in manipulating people and planting ideas in people’s heads without their knowledge. I think we often underestimate the kind of stuff they were capable of.

There’s not enough evidence to prove anything, but I think John Manning did the best job at describing what that type of social engineering might have looked like - with BWF placed into the TSBD as a stocking horse for Oswald through a shady staffing agency. Oswald’s other job applications could have been pretty easily blocked, and BWF could have been asked and if he had any friends that needed a job and even incentivized for referrals (most staffing agencies today do that sort of thing), passed it along to Linnie, and Ruth would have advocated for Linnie to get BWF some extra cash. The only lie of omission in this scenario is the parties involved not wanting to admit they accidentally got the President killed for a couple bucks. This is speculative obviously but a similar scenario is not out of the realm of possibility. This would even explain Ruth Paine’s sketchy testimony about the TEC job. 

I’m not disagreeing with you. All I’m saying is that we don’t have enough information to really come to a definitive conclusion about Oswald’s job. A lot of this stuff may seem pretty far fetched but if a random schmuck like me can come up with an even remotely plausible scenario in five minutes a team of genius level professional sociopaths could certainly dream up a way to get a dude a job without leaving behind any evidence. 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

And the problem is you're so married to that speculative theory that you're now ignoring all the evidence that contradicts it.

 

It's not a theory. It's an argument made using logic, odds, and common sense.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Anyone who thinks the TSBD as the assassination site was pre-planned prior to Oct 15 when Oswald started work there, and that that plan required Oswald to be employed there at the time of the assassination, has to explain all those failed job applications of Oswald prior to Oct 15. No way around it: you must explain those, if you are going to hold to that premise. Do you intend to address this?

 

Thanks for your response Greg.

I suppose Oswald wasn't given those jobs because more suitable applicants were found in each case.

Had Oswald taken one of the jobs and later his services as patsy became needed, he would have quit his job and taken the one where the plotters needed him.

 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Which is, of course, the organizing principle of Sandy Larsen's presence on this forum.

I was once engaged to an organizing principal. Huh!

[Larry Hancock]

Off Topic, but Pat I see you have messages turned off or cannot receive them for some reason.  Would you email me at larryjoe@westok.net  Thanks

[John Cotter]

On 10/28/2022 at 2:41 AM, Matt Allison said:

Because there are people that think the entire plan to assassinate JFK revolved exclusively around Dallas and LHO for months in advance. 

The other plots (that had nothing to do with LHO) demonstrate that, as Ben described it, catch-as-catch can was more likely the modus operandi.

After LHO was already working in downtown Dallas, the WH agreed to a motorcade, and that was when that particular specific opportunity presented itself.

Matt,

The following self-explanatory paragraphs among others from James Douglass’s masterpiece, JFK and the Unspeakable, prove beyond reasonable doubt that the planning of the ritual sacrifice of JFK in broad daylight for all the world to see and fear in the amphitheatre of Dealey Plaza began before Oswald got the job in the TSBD:

On October 9, 1963, one week before Lee Harvey Oswald began his job at a site overlooking the president’s future parade route, an FBI official in Washington, D.C., disconnected Oswald from a federal alarm system that was about to identify him as a threat to national security. The FBI's man's name was Marvin Gheesling. He was a supervisor in the Soviet espionage section at FBI headquarters. His timing was remarkable. As author John Newman remarked in an analysis of this phenomenon, Gheesling “turned off the alarm switch on Oswald literally an instant before it would have gone off.”

Four years earlier, in November 1959 shortly after Oswald told the US embassy in Moscow he would give military secrets to the Soviet Union, the FBI issued a FLASH on Oswald. A “Wanted Notice Card” was sent throughout the Bureau stating that anyone who received information or an inquiry on Oswald should notify the espionage section, Division 5. By its FLASH the FBI had put a security watch on Oswald that covered all its offices. That watch was abolished on October 9, 1963, for no apparent reason, only hours before the FBI received critical information on Oswald. When Marvin Gheesling canceled Oswald's FLASH, he effectively silenced the national security alarm that was just about to sound from an incoming CIA report on Oswald's (or an impostor’s) activities in Mexico.

From the perspective of the plot to kill Kennedy, the cancellation of the FBI's FLASH came in the nick of time. Oswald was to play the indispensable role of scapegoat in this scenario, requiring that he be quietly manipulated right up through the assassination. Had the FBI alarm sounded, Oswald would have been placed on the Security Index, drawing critical law enforcement attention to him prior to Kennedy's visit to Dallas. That much pre-Dallas focus on the patsy would have made it impossible to play out the assassination scenario. The FBI watch on Oswald had to be revoked immediately. It was.

Edited October 29, 2022 by John Cotter

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, John Cotter said:

Matt,

The following self-explanatory paragraphs among others from James Douglass’s masterpiece, JFK and the Unspeakable, prove beyond reasonable doubt that the planning of the ritual sacrifice of JFK in broad daylight for all the world to see and fear in the amphitheatre of Dealey Plaza began before Oswald got the job in the TSBD:

On October 9, 1963, one week before Lee Harvey Oswald began his job at a site overlooking the president’s future parade route, an FBI official in Washington, D.C., disconnected Oswald from a federal alarm system that was about to identify him as a threat to national security. The FBI's man's name was Marvin Gheesling. He was a supervisor in the Soviet espionage section at FBI headquarters. His timing was remarkable. As author John Newman remarked in an analysis of this phenomenon, Gheesling “turned off the alarm switch on Oswald literally an instant before it would have gone off.”

Four years earlier, in November 1959 shortly after Oswald told the US embassy in Moscow he would give military secrets to the Soviet Union, the FBI issued a FLASH on Oswald. A “Wanted Notice Card” was sent throughout the Bureau stating that anyone who received information or an inquiry on Oswald should notify the espionage section, Division 5. By its FLASH the FBI had put a security watch on Oswald that covered all its offices. That watch was abolished on October 9, 1963, for no apparent reason, only hours before the FBI received critical information on Oswald. When Marvin Gheesling canceled Oswald's FLASH, he effectively silenced the national security alarm that was just about to sound from an incoming CIA report on Oswald's (or an impostor’s) activities in Mexico.

From the perspective of the plot to kill Kennedy, the cancellation of the FBI's FLASH came in the nick of time. Oswald was to play the indispensable role of scapegoat in this scenario, requiring that he be quietly manipulated right up through the assassination. Had the FBI alarm sounded, Oswald would have been placed on the Security Index, drawing critical law enforcement attention to him prior to Kennedy's visit to Dallas. That much pre-Dallas focus on the patsy would have made it impossible to play out the assassination scenario. The FBI watch on Oswald had to be revoked immediately. It was.

It sure looks fishy. 

On the hand, perhaps the FBI and intel agencies wanted LHO to be surveilled, but not harassed. He was an asset, but perhaps a dubious one. 

They wanted LHO to go to Mexico City and meet with Kostikov, to get that meeting on the record. (I suspect LHO's ID as an US intel asset was intentionally leaked to Kostikov. Otherwise Kostikov would not have met with an annoying wayward tourist on a Saturday (non-office hours) and delay a volleyball game.

Does that mean the CIA-FBI was planning the JFKA?

Or to use LHO in a non-lethal false flag op? 

 

 

[Matthew Koch]

4 hours ago, John Cotter said:

Matt,

The following self-explanatory paragraphs among others from James Douglass’s masterpiece, JFK and the Unspeakable, prove beyond reasonable doubt that the planning of the ritual sacrifice of JFK in broad daylight for all the world to see and fear in the amphitheatre of Dealey Plaza began before Oswald got the job in the TSBD:

Exactly, a "ritual sacrifice" has a scape goat. 

scapegoat \SKAYP-goat\ noun. 1 : a male goat upon whose head are symbolically placed the sins of the people after which he is sent into the wilderness in the biblical ceremony for Yom Kippur. 2 a : one that bears the blame for others. b : one that is the object of irrational hostility.
 

How did Lee Harvey Oswald get a job at the Texas School Book Depository? IMO D.H. Byrd brought the company in that hired Oswald. He would later add the sniper nest window to his Safari Trophy Collection, Byrd was on Safari with James Doolittle in Africa at the time of the assassination.  The Doolittle Report, 1954:" We are facing an enemy whose objective is world domination by whatever means, at whatever cost. There are no rules …" is credited by some historians for inspiring covert overthrows of democratically elected leaders and using dirty tricks that were formerly associated with our enemies. https://aarclibrary.org/cold-war-context/

 

[John Cotter]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

It sure looks fishy. 

On the hand, perhaps the FBI and intel agencies wanted LHO to be surveilled, but not harassed. He was an asset, but perhaps a dubious one. 

They wanted LHO to go to Mexico City and meet with Kostikov, to get that meeting on the record. (I suspect LHO's ID as an US intel asset was intentionally leaked to Kostikov. Otherwise Kostikov would not have met with an annoying wayward tourist on a Saturday (non-office hours) and delay a volleyball game.

Does that mean the CIA-FBI was planning the JFKA?

Or to use LHO in a non-lethal false flag op? 

 

 

I don’t see how any of that constitutes a rebuttal of Douglass’s analysis, Ben

Your suggestion that switching off the alarm system might mean the securicrats “wanted LHO to be surveilled, but not harassed” doesn’t seem to make sense, since the switching off ostensibly means he wouldn’t be surveilled.

But of course, in reality it clearly means the very opposite, since such a bizarre intervention signifies that Oswald was being given very special attention. With the benefit of hindsight we can see that that very special attention involved, as Douglass put it, Oswald “being quietly manipulated right up through the assassination”. It necessarily included Oswald getting the job in the TSBD.

Whether these machinations related to a non-lethal false flag op or not is beside the point. The paragraph following the three paragraphs by Douglass quoted in my previous post further elucidates Douglass’s interpretation, to which I cannot imagine any credible alternative:

“What would have sounded the alarm on Oswald was the CIA's October 10, 1963, message to the FBI about Oswald contacting the Soviet embassy in Mexico City. Because Oswald's security watch had just been lifted, the CIA's October 10 message managed to document his latest Soviet connection in a way that could become explosive after the assassination, while at the same time avoiding a security alert on Oswald before the assassination. It was a brilliant tactic in manipulating the FBI that demonstrated just how sophisticated the plotters’ knowledge and control was of their national security bureaucracy. John Kennedy was killed by people who knew their national security state inside out and could direct it according to their will.”

Edited October 29, 2022 by John Cotter

[Matt Allison]

49 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Douglass put it, Oswald “being quietly manipulated right up through the assassination”.

True.

49 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

It necessarily included Oswald getting the job in the TSBD.

Not even remotely close to true.

 

Once again, the idea for the lunch at the Trade Mart had been refused by the WH, and thus the TSBD would not have worked as a shooting location.

"October 31, 1963: Bruno visits two other potential luncheon sites, the Dallas Memorial Auditorium, which he deems too large, and the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest, which he believes would be too far out of town and thus impractical. He is also informed that Governor Connally is unhappy with the decision not to use the Trade Mart for the luncheon because of the catwalk issue. Bruno agrees to visit the Trade Mart again but retains his misgivings... Bruno is now faced with two holes in the schedule, Fort Worth and Dallas. One last place is suggested as a luncheon possibility, the Women's Building (now known as The Women's Museum) at the fairgrounds at Fair Park."

[Matt Allison]

I have to point out again, there is nothing more immaterial than where LHO happened to be working on 11/22/63.

When people suggest that it was a necessity, they are essentially following the same logic as "Truly says LHO is only missing employee, ergo, He's the Shooter."

Anyone not working on the parade route that day could have figured out a building along the route that would work to shoot from. Putting Oswald's rifle in a building along the parade route was not a moon shot.

The insistence on making this aspect of the assassination complicated is truly baffling.

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

The insistence on making this aspect of the assassination complicated is truly baffling.

Indeed it is. It's also standard procedure for people like Sandy Larsen, who believe in other ludicrous. comically overwrought and complex conspiracy theories like "Harvey and Lee."