Interesting account of JFK affair, Gore Vidal

[Kirk Gallaway]

6 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Bobby Bonds was a great player...without steroids.

If he had juiced himself like his son he would have doubled his home run output.

Barry Bonds godfather is Willie Mays.

At one point the Giants had all these power hitters on the same team at the same time:

Willie Mays

Willie McCovey

Bobby Bonds

Jimmy Ray Hart

 

Yes those were great years Joe. But just before that they had Hall of Famer Orlando Cepeda in place of Bobby Bonds who never made it. But as Cliff said, they made that trade for Ray Sadecki who the Dodgers always killed! I knew at the time, that was a disaster!

Hell of a farm system! The first to really bring in the Latin players.

But other than that, let me count the ways, Mays McCovey, Marichal. Gaylord Perry, the 3 Alou brothers, Jim Hart, Bobby Bonds. George Foster, Tito Fuentes, Gary Matthews. Some I forget.  Some other guys who they were smart to trade but made it in the American League, Willie Kirkland, Leon Wagner.

I went to the same 1-6 grade school as Barry Bonds! Arundel school in San Carlos! But over a decade earlier! I never found that out until about 15 years ago, when I heard an interview with him!

 

Do you think there may be a little juicing of JFK stats?

 

Fan Boy Fan  Boy

What you gonna do?

What you gonna do when they come for you!

 

heh heh!  (joke)

 

 

 

 *

Edited November 28, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Pat Speer]

6 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Bobby Bonds was a great player...without steroids.

If he had juiced himself like his son he would have doubled his home run output.

Barry Bonds godfather is Willie Mays.

At one point the Giants had all these power hitters on the same team at the same time:

Willie Mays

Willie McCovey

Bobby Bonds

Jimmy Ray Hart

 

Well, now we've turned this into a Bobby Bonds tribute thread. I would like to add that I looked it up last night and found that over a 5 year stretch, 1969-1973, Bobby Bonds was by far the most productive player in baseball. He scored 65 more runs than any other player, while at the same time ranking tenth in runs batted in. And this despite the fact he frequently batted lead off! (The next closest run total to his 613 among those with more RBI's was Billy Williams, with 493.) 

It's a pity that at the time most fans dwelled on his strikeouts, and failed to realize that with his five 30-30 seasons and three gold gloves Bonds was the best position player of that era, even when you extend it to 1975. Better than Reggie Jackson, better than Willie Stargell, better than Pete Rose, Joe Morgan and Rod Carew. And yes, David Von Pein, even better than Johnny Bench. (When you expand the range to 1976, Bench comes out on top.) 

So...how can we relate this to the Kennedy assassination? Well, how about this... Sometimes the media, and the public as a  whole, is misled by the darkness of a situation (such as Bonds' strikeouts, and Oswald's purported wife-beating) and this will prevent them from seeing a greater truth--that Bonds at his peak was a wonder, and that Oswald was an unlikely assassin. 

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Yes those were great years Joe. But just before that they had Hall of Famer Orlando Cepeda in place of Bobby Bonds who never made it. But as Cliff said, they made that trade for Ray Sadecki who the Dodgers always killed! I knew at the time, that was a disaster!

Hell of a farm system! The first to really bring in the Latin players.

But other than that, let me count the ways, Mays McCovey, Marichal. Gaylord Perry, the 3 Alou brothers, Jim Hart, Bobby Bonds. George Foster, Tito Fuentes, Gary Matthews. Some I forget.  Some other guys who they were smart to trade but made it in the American League, Willie Kirkland, Leon Wagner.

I went to the same 1-6 grade school as Barry Bonds! Arundel school in San Carlos! But over a decade earlier! I never found that out until about 15 years ago, when I heard an interview with him!

 

Do you think there may be some juicing of JFK stats?

 

Fan Boy Fan  Boy

What you gonna do?

What you gonna do when they come for you!

 

heh heh!  (joke)

 

Juicing of JFK stats?

No.

The thing with the Giants was often this team talent dichotomy of half the players being power hitting superstars ( each one could have been another team lifting super star on their own like Orlando Cepeda ) and the other half being mediocre at best!

Hal Lanier could barely bat his weight! Tito could bat 250 and get a decent amount of doubles but he was never close to being an all star talent. Jimmy Davenport was a really good defensive player but another 250 to 260 light weight hitter.

Dick Dietz?  Please.

When this weak part of the Giants line came up to bat it was time to go buy a hot dog, go to the bathroom, clip your fingernails or walk around the stadium and check out the odd looking characters in the stands like the loud yelling "PEANUTS! GET YOUR PEANUTS HERE" vendors.

And the Giants were always just short in the 3rd pitcher department beyond Marichal and Gaylord Perry. They never had that "Don Sutton" to carry them all the way.

This trip down 1960's MLB nostalgia memory lane is fun, but getting back to JFK...

Why do so many compare and hold JFK up to a Pope and Mother Theresa sexual morality standard?

His one self-indulgent and debatably indecent propensity for extramarital promiscuity was never viewed anywhere near the end-all sin in over half the world. 

And it's nothing compared to the political leader sins of murder, corruption, anti-democracy agendas, personal greed and power obsession, societal neglect, war mongering, etc.

And the wild adoration and crowd size reaction to JFK's foreign countries parade visiting worldwide seemed to rival those of the Pope!

The adoration context was different of course. 

Adoration without the guilt.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Kirk Gallaway]

Joe, Only the first 5 I mentioned were Hall of Fame.. Mays, Mac Covey Marichal, Perry and Cepeda. It's a pretty high standard!

Of course the problem with Bobby  Bonds was his alcoholism.

Dick Dietz is a good one. I interviewed him when he was manager of the San Jose Giants farm club, and I asked him about the umpire's ruling that he tried to get hit by a pitch by I believe it was Drysdale in a late season critical game with the Dodgers.

Of course, you remember Danny Kaye's _Hiller-Miller Haller lujah Twist?!

Edited November 28, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Joe Bauer]

13 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Joe, Only the first 4 I mentioned were Hall of Fame. It's a pretty high standard.

Of course the problem with Bobby  Bonds was his alcoholism.

Dick Dietz is a good one. I interviewed him when he was manager of the San Jose Giants farm club, and I asked him about the umpire's ruling that he tried to get hit by a pitch by I believe it was Drysdale in a late season critical game with the Dodgers.

Of course, you remember Danny Kaye's _Hiller-Miller Haller lujah Twist?!

Tom Haller. Forgot him.

I guess Bobby Bonds did develop a drinking problem later on. So did Mickey Mantle!

Dick Deitz had TWO controversial play calls with Drysdale that both cost the Giants  important wins against the Dodgers.

The hit by the pitch one...and another outrageous call of a home run by Dietz off of the big DD.

Dietz's hit ball did hit above the outfield fence home run line. Replay after replay showed this. But the ref who made the final decision no home run call would not budge from his dumb stubborn error decision. 

I swear, the umps favored the Dodgers in their own park.

And Juan Marichal took a bat to Dodger catcher Johnny Roseboro when big bodied Roseboro came at him after Marichal rightfully made a big angry fuss after he was almost decapitated by the Dodger pitchers aiming at his head! Good for Juan. He was a fighter.

In his birth place of the Dominican Republic... "you don't take no Chit like that man " without a fight!

Edited November 28, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

I think we are all forgetting something about why the Giants could not beat the Dodgers for the title. (Save for one year.)

Bad trades.

They traded Perry for McDowell.

That is one of the worst trades they ever made.  Perry landed in the HOF and he won a Cy Young in the AL. He won 24 games the first year he was traded to the Indians.

They also traded George Foster for Frank Duffy. Foster later won MVP. He ended up hitting 348 home runs.

Sadecki for HOF Cepeda? Orlando won the MVP for the Cards in 1967.

Trade away three guys like that and you will never beat the Dodgers. Especially when you get next to nothing in return.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Cliff Varnell]

In the summer of ‘68 my family moved from Northern California to suburban Philadelphia.  We went to see the Giants play the Phillies at Connie Mack Stadium.  They say Candlestick was a dump but Connie Mack made the ‘Stick look luxurious.  The outfield fence was all advertising.  They served this strange sandwich called a hoagie.  

 In the bottom of the 1st with two on the PA guy announced: “Now batting...Richie Allen.”  The place erupted with boos, the loudest crowd I’d ever heard.  Booing their own guy, I couldn’t believe it!  Allen hit a 3-run homer and the joint broke out in robust cheers. A couple of innings later with two on the PA guy announced: “Now batting...Richie Allen.”  This time the booing was more intense.  Allen cracked a double off an outfield advertisement, 2 runs scored, place goes nuts cheering.  In his next AB Allen struck out, the booing was on steroids.  I’ll never forget the silent dignity Allen carried himself with as he walked back to the dugout amidst thundering derision.

Philadelphia sports fans are...different.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Cliff Varnell

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Well, now we've turned this into a Bobby Bonds tribute thread. I would like to add that I looked it up last night and found that over a 5 year stretch, 1969-1973, Bobby Bonds was by far the most productive player in baseball. He scored 65 more runs than any other player, while at the same time ranking tenth in runs batted in. And this despite the fact he frequently batted lead off! (The next closest run total to his 613 among those with more RBI's was Billy Williams, with 493.) 

It's a pity that at the time most fans dwelled on his strikeouts, and failed to realize that with his five 30-30 seasons and three gold gloves Bonds was the best position player of that era, even when you extend it to 1975. Better than Reggie Jackson, better than Willie Stargell, better than Pete Rose, Joe Morgan and Rod Carew. And yes, David Von Pein, even better than Johnny Bench. (When you expand the range to 1976, Bench comes out on top.) 

So...how can we relate this to the Kennedy assassination? Well, how about this... Sometimes the media, and the public as a  whole, is misled by the darkness of a situation (such as Bonds' strikeouts, and Oswald's purported wife-beating) and this will prevent them from seeing a greater truth--that Bonds at his peak was a wonder, and that Oswald was an unlikely assassin. 

From expanding my dive into Bonds' stats, I've come to realize that Bonds was actually the most productive player for an ELEVEN year stretch, 1969-1979. The only player to score more runs was Pete Rose. When comparing him to the six players to knock in more runs (all HOFers save Lee May) it's clear he was the biggest offensive threat in that he scored far more runs, and stole more than twice as many bases. He was fourth in HRs (behind Jackson, Stargell and Bench) and fourth in stolen bases (behind Brock, Morgan and Cedeno).

In short, he was easily the most exciting player of his day. Put this man in the Hall!

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I think we are all forgetting something about why the Giants could not beat the Dodgers for the title. (Save for one year.)

Bad trades.

They traded Perry for McDowell.

That is one of the worst trades they ever made.  Perry landed in the HOF and he won a Cy Young in the AL. He won 24 games the first year he was traded to the Indians.

They also traded George Foster for Frank Duffy. Foster later won MVP. He ended up hitting 348 home runs.

Sadecki for HOF Cepeda? Orlando won the MVP for the Cards in 1967.

Trade away three guys like that and you will never beat the Dodgers. Especially when you get next to nothing in return.

 

Bingo Jim D.

[Ken Davies]

Bobby Bonds was very good, but not the most exciting player of his day to us Cardinal fans.

We were at Busch stadium, late August 1974.

Phillies and Cards tied for first. Phillies leading 2-1 bottom of the ninth.  Two out. Cards pinch hitter doubles. Lou Brock singles to right center, tying run scores.  It is free bat night and 48,000 fans are pounding bats on the floor and screaming. The stadium seemed to be shaking. Everyone knew that Brock would be running. Nine throws to first.  Brock steals second. He takes off for third. Ted Sizemore hits a ground ball up the middle and Brock scores as the stadium erupts in cheers.

I saw Gibson, Koosman, Carlton, Ryan, Jenkins,

Pitch in person. Gibson lost a 4-3 game, pitching 11 innings. Ryan fanned 12 Cards in 5 innings. Those guys could pitch.

Bobby Bonds, McCovey, Stargell could hit, as could Ritchie Allen (only hitter with over 30 homers when Gibson was on Cards). Cepeda

lead the Cards with 16 homers in 1968 when they won the pennant.

Nate Colbert hit the highest pop up I ever saw.

I had time to eat 2 White Castle burgers before it was caught by the shortstop.

JFK liked his football, baseball?

[Cliff Varnell]

4 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

In the summer of ‘68 my family moved from Northern California to suburban Philadelphia.  We went to see the Giants play the Phillies at Connie Mack Stadium.  They say Candlestick was a dump but Connie Mack made the ‘Stick look luxurious.  The outfield fence was all advertising.  They served this strange sandwich called a hoagie.  

 In the bottom of the 1st with two on the PA guy announced: “Now batting...Richie Allen.”  The place erupted with boos, the loudest crowd I’d ever heard.  Booing their own guy, I couldn’t believe it!  Allen hit a 3-run homer and the joint broke out in robust cheers. A couple of innings later with two on the PA guy announced: “Now batting...Richie Allen.”  This time the booing was more intense.  Allen cracked a double off an outfield advertisement, 2 runs scored, place goes nuts cheering.  In his next AB Allen struck out, the booing was on steroids.  I’ll never forget the silent dignity Allen carried himself with as he walked back to the dugout amidst thundering derision.

Philadelphia sports fans are...different.

As a stickler for accuracy I double checked my 54 year old memory with an internet box score for August 18, 1968 — Allen went 3 for 4 with 2 runs scored, a double, a home run and a strike out but he only had 1 RBI.  

The booing is what I remember the most.  

In 1964 the Phillies had a 6.5 game game lead with 12 games to go when Phil’s manager Gene Mauch decided to pitch his aces Jim Bunning and Chris Short on 2 days rest — they lost 10 in a row and finished 1 game behind the St. Louis Cardinals.  

How the fans blamed Allen I’m not sure.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Cliff Varnell

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

In the summer of ‘68 my family moved from Northern California to suburban Philadelphia.  We went to see the Giants play the Phillies at Connie Mack Stadium.  They say Candlestick was a dump but Connie Mack made the ‘Stick look luxurious.  The outfield fence was all advertising.  They served this strange sandwich called a hoagie.  

 In the bottom of the 1st with two on the PA guy announced: “Now batting...Richie Allen.”  The place erupted with boos, the loudest crowd I’d ever heard.  Booing their own guy, I couldn’t believe it!  Allen hit a 3-run homer and the joint broke out in robust cheers. A couple of innings later with two on the PA guy announced: “Now batting...Richie Allen.”  This time the booing was more intense.  Allen cracked a double off an outfield advertisement, 2 runs scored, place goes nuts cheering.  In his next AB Allen struck out, the booing was on steroids.  I’ll never forget the silent dignity Allen carried himself with as he walked back to the dugout amidst thundering derision.

Philadelphia sports fans are...different.

Different? Sadistic more like it.

Richie Allen was a great power hitter. Really feared by every NL pitcher. Phillies had Jim Bunning as well. One of the greatest pitchers of that era. A super star.

Even Mays had a hard time hitting against Bunning.

Bunning was right up there with Koufax and Bob Gibson.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Kirk Gallaway]

Juan Marichal won more games than any pitcher in the 60's. To me Marichal, Koufax and Gibson were the best I ever saw.

Golden age of Baseball.

When I heard  Frank Robinson being traded for Milt Pappas.  That was quite a humorous relief. It became obvious if you were a NLer you were always going to get the short end of the stick trading with the AL.

I saw a promotion day  at the Candlestick park in the 80's with Aaron, Mays, Robinson (who I think was the manager of the expos at the time)and Mac Covey who I think were 4 of the top 7 in home runs at that time.

Boy Cliff, your Philly story about Richie Allen sounds really twisted! I see Allen had over 1,000 ops  with a career high 40 HR's in 1966! What are those people thinking?

The 1967 All Star Game had I think 22 players who made it to the Hall of Fame plus Pete Rose. 14 from the National and 9 from the American. NL all star outfield, Mays, Aaron, Clemente!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Major_League_Baseball_All-Star_Game

 

[Cliff Varnell]

18 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Boy Cliff, your Philly story about Richie Allen sounds really twisted! I see Allen had over 1,000 ops  with a career high 40 HR's in 1966! What are those people thinking?

The Sunday supplement for the Philadelphia Inquirer once carried a front cover color photo of Joe Kuharich hung in effigy.  Wiki:

“The 1968 season was Kuharich's last. The Eagles vied most of the season for pro football's worst record, which would have earned them the chance to draft Heisman Trophy winner O. J. Simpson No. 1 overall. But the Eagles won the twelfth and thirteenth games of the season, then a 14-game season, for a final record of 2-12-0, and the Buffalo Bills, with a record of 1-12-1, won the rights to Simpson. So despised by Eagles' fans by this time was Kuharich that a plane towing a banner reading "Joe Must Go" circled Franklin Field, the Eagles home field at that time, for all home games of the 1968 season, and for three of the home games a large banner was draped over the upper deck of Franklin Field which read simply "Joe Please Do Us a Favor and Die". This was the season of the game of legend in which Santa Claus was pelted with snowballs as he circled the track at Franklin Field at halftime of the final game of the season (December 15, 1968, a loss to the Minnesota Vikings, 24-17), precipitated as a result of the fans realizing that they would not be getting the No. 1 overall draft pick as they had hoped only three weeks earlier.”

[Cory Santos]

You guys are baseball fanboys.