The Two "Oswalds"

[Bob Ness]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Are you really comparing an idiotic, off-the-cuff comment by Trump to the complexities of a long-term secret government doppelganger project?

Hahaha! How many people were working on it after he said it? Just joking. The point is the IC isn't immune to nutso programs and the "Doppleganger Project" would be one of their more realistic attempts during the post war period. Like I said, it's not that far out to sea.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bob Ness

[Ron Bulman]

Why waste my time, but since DJ tried.

Gil, I think there is a more complete list of this somewhere but regarding two Oswald's.

My favorite is Down-Town Mercury, the non-driving Ozzie doing 80 on Stemmons scaring the test drive salesman.  Him at the target range shooting at another man's target.  The barbershop.  Mailing the order for the carcano (not!) while he was at work.  More, I think.  Not to mention buying jeeps or trucks in Louisiana while he was in Russia.

Regarding the pictures similarities dispute they may be of the same man, yet there was still another, un-photographed Ozzie?

I firmly believe there were two Oswald's in the Texas Theater.

      

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Denny Zartman]

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Cohen admitted in May of last year that "there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life."

This is what is so frustrating about "debate" on this forum. Either Oswald was impersonated in the weeks leading up to the JFK assassination (which is a screaming indicator of conspiracy) or he was impersonated before it was possible that those impersonations would be linked specifically to the JFKA (as evidenced by the J. Edgar Hoover memo, which means there was something rotten going on about the identity of "Lee Harvey Oswald" before the JFKA.) Or... it was both. If it was both, then in my view a person can't totally discount the possibility of the Harvey and Lee theory as being possible.

In addition to @Bob Ness 's story about Star Gate, one could also point to the book "The Men Who Stare At Goats" as good examples of how far the government would go in the name of espionage.

Finally, I must always point to the recent documentary "Three Identical Strangers" as evidence that separating twins for nefarious purposes is not a difficult feat to accomplish.

[David Josephs]

The difference between the 2 boys is crazy...  the Bronx zoo photo which Robert claims to have taken is not recognizable to PIC as his brother...

Taken just 18 months earlier, the inset is a 5'4" 115lb Lee Oswald described as a leader, one of the biggest in the class, and a one tough kid...

I called the zoo to ask about the height of those railings to be sure...

I don't think children get shorter and smaller between ages 12 and 13... or men get shorter and smaller between age 18 and 23...

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Why waste my time, but since DJ tried.

Gil, I think there is a more complete list of this somewhere but regarding two Oswald's.

There are other examples, but here's a partial list of the evidence pointing to two Oswalds.

1.  Way back in 1948, one LHO was living at 101 San Saba in Benbrook while the other was at 3330 Willig St. (and then 7408 Ewing) in Fort Worth.

2. In 1953 the Russian-speaking LHO (Harvey) was sent to Youth House for truancy, fled to Stanley, North Dakota to avoid further entanglement with the NYC legal system, and started attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans that fall, all the while the American-born LHO (Lee) had good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.

3.  During the fall semester of 1954, Harvey attended Stripling School in Fort Worth while Lee attended Beauregard School in New Orleans,.

4. By the mid-1950s, both Oswalds had various sometimes conflicting jobs, which eventually required the FBI to destroy all the original employment (and school) records for both young men and to create a false employment and education legend.  The Social Security Administration refused to corroborate the Official Story® of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

5. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: My favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.  Other examples from USMC unit diaries and testimony show how the two LHOs associated with completely different groups of Marines both early and late in their enlistment periods.

6. While Russian-speaking HARVEY was in the Soviet Union, American-born LEE was active briefly as an agent provocateur in NYC, working with Marita Lorenz and anti-Castro Cubans in and around Florida, visiting Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans, and much more.

7.  One Oswald never had a driver’s license and could not drive while the other had a valid Texas driver’s license and could drive, including doing work for Jack Ruby in 1963 involving cars.

8.   American-born LEE Oswald appeared in Baytown, TX on Labor Day weekend in 1963 attempting to purchase rifles from Fidel Castro’s friend and gun supplier Robert McKeown.  At the time, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald and his family were on holiday with the Murrets at Lake Pontchartrain in Louisiana.

9. In October 1963, two different young men, both claiming to be “Lee Harvey Oswald,” appeared before Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell, the first on October 3 and again a few days later, the second on October 22.   Ms Kittell told the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi that the second Oswald “looked the same,” and had “the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing.”

10. While the other Oswald was elsewhere, LEE Oswald visited the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target;

11. On Nov. 2 one LHO visited Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth.

12. Also on Nov. 2 LEE Oswald visited the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership where he test drove a car at recklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car.  (Remember that Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald did not have a driver’s license.)

13. On Nov. 6 or 7 LEE Oswald visited the Irving Furniture Mart for a gun part and was referred by the ladies there to the shop where Dial Ryder worked.

14. On Nov. 15, LEE Oswald went to the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) and applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.

15. On Nov. 20 “Oswald” hitch-hiked on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introduced himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” discussed the President's visit, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already working).

16. On Nov. 22, both LHOs were in Dealey Plaza.  One left in a bus and then a taxi; the other got into a Nash Rambler station wagon.

17.  Two men who looked similar were detained by police in the Texas Theater,  according to Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire.  
 

[Ron Ege]

On 1/8/2023 at 6:33 AM, Gil Jesus said:

Something that has always bugged me is this photo taken inside the Carousel Club showing a man in the audience.

Who was this man ? Could this man have been mistaken by witnesses as Oswald ?  Or did Ruby and Oswald know each other ?

The Commission never identified him.

Another thing that bugs me is the photo on the left taken from Oswald's DOD card stamped October 23, 1963.

 

The Commission never mentioned that Oswald had been issued a DOD card during the time he was working at the TSBD building. Why not ?

And how did this military photo of Oswald find it's way onto the fake "Hidell" Selective Service Card ? Is this evidence that the fake draft card was made AFTER October 23, 1963, when Oswald was working in the TSBD building ? 

The Commission never answered those questions either.

Gil, thanks.

I'm probably way off base and going from memory, so apology herewith. 

Here goes.

Re "Oswald's military ID card", directly above.  Long ago, I thought that there was a discussion that that type of ID card (have not been able to establish the actual DD Form number of it) was traditionally used to identify military service dependents.  In particular, I can vouch for that, as I was in the USAF, from 1961-1990 and was married.  My spouse, as well as all dependents (even as a minor, over a certain age) were issued that type of card.

Further, still from memory, I thought there was also a discussion that established that that same type of ID card was also issued to civilians in the DOD's employ.

After his alleged defection to the USSR, Oswald's discharge was changed from honorable to undesirable.  Thus, subsequently, he could not have been in the USMC inactive reserves.  How could he be classified as "Reserve/Inactive" on any USG, DOD, or Military Service ID card?

Here is an image of a USMC inactive reserve ID (DD Form 2MCR) card from that era.

The USMC Active Duty Card (DD Form 2MC) from that era looks the same, other than color reading "ACTIVE", where the DD Form 2MCR reads "RESERVE (INACTIVE)".

Bottom line, I cannot fathom how the "Oswald's military ID card" can be legitimately classified as such.  I served in Okinawa in '62-'63 as a Morse Intercept Operator and each year, there was a tri-service (USMC, USA, and USAF) "contest" - to establish who was the best, as we called ourselves, "ditty-bopper".  I can assure you that an active duty Marine's military ID card in that era was the  DD Form 2MC, as directly above, and he been honorably discharged, he would've been issued the DD Form 2MCR - and not the the DOD Card, "N 4, 271, 617".

I also so not think that the photo on the fake SS card or the photo on the DOD card is "military", per se.  Oswald's photo on his DD Form 2MC would've pictured a 17 years old youngster with a "buzz cut".  The picture would be similar to this:

Considering Oswald's brief length of service, he probably would've retained his original ID card, until he was discharged.  My ID card with the "buzz cut" pic was not updated, with a new picture (with longer hair) - until I four years after I enlisted - when I reenlisted.  The DOD ID card picture, if Oswald, shows an older man, with a full head of hair.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ron Ege

[Ron Ege]

Re post directly above:

Note that the lower left hand corner block of the military dependent ID card below, reads: "SERVICE AND STATUS OF SPONSOR", i. e., the military member who is "sponsoring" the dependent.  In this case, the "USA AD", indicates that the military member sponsor of the dependent is Active Duty, United States Army.

The "Oswald's military ID card" image below is the same DD Form, but the lower left had block on it has the "OF SPONSOR" portion blacked out.  I believe that the "SERVICE NUMBER OF SPONSOR" most probably would've had a prefix before it.  The USAF used "AF", and we see the USA, used "US".  My take is that the card is an unprofessional forgery.

Era appropriate military dependent ID card:

http://munozfamily.homestead.com/ID_Card.GIF

And "Oswald's military ID card":

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ron Ege

[Guest]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:56 PM, Ron Ege said:

Gil, thanks.

I'm probably way off base and going from memory, so apology herewith. 

Here goes.

Re "Oswald's military ID card", directly above.  Long ago, I thought that there was a discussion that that type of ID card (have not been able to establish the actual DD Form number of it) was traditionally used to identify military service dependents.  In particular, I can vouch for that, as I was in the USAF, from 1961-1990 and was married.  My spouse, as well as all dependents (even as a minor, over a certain age) were issued that type of card.

Further, still from memory, I thought there was also a discussion that established that that same type of ID card was also issued to civilians in the DOD's employ.

After his alleged defection to the USSR, Oswald's discharge was changed from honorable to undesirable.  Thus, subsequently, he could not have been in the USMC inactive reserves.  How could he be classified as "Reserve/Inactive" on any USG, DOD, or Military Service ID card?

Here is an image of a USMC inactive reserve ID (DD Form 2MCR) card from that era.

The USMC Active Duty Card (DD Form 2MC) from that era looks the same, other than color reading "ACTIVE", where the DD Form 2MCR reads "RESERVE (INACTIVE)".

Bottom line, I cannot fathom how the "Oswald's military ID card" can be legitimately classified as such.  I served in Okinawa in '62-'63 as a Morse Intercept Operator and each year, there was a tri-service (USMC, USA, and USAF) "contest" - to establish who was the best, as we called ourselves, "ditty-bopper".  I can assure you that an active duty Marine's military ID card in that era was the  DD Form 2MC, as directly above, and he been honorably discharged, he would've been issued the DD Form 2MCR - and not the the DOD Card, "N 4, 271, 617".

I also so not think that the photo on the fake SS card or the photo on the DOD card is "military", per se.  Oswald's photo on his DD Form 2MC would've pictured a 17 years old youngster with a "buzz cut".  The picture would be similar to this:

Considering Oswald's brief length of service, he probably would've retained his original ID card, until he was discharged.  My ID card with the "buzz cut" pic was not updated, with a new picture (with longer hair) - until I four years after I enlisted - when I reenlisted.  The DOD ID card picture, if Oswald, shows an older man, with a full head of hair.

 

Isn't there a mix-up between the different cards, as the card below (form DD 217 MC) was issued on his discharge date Sept. 11, 1959.   I don't know if he was supposed to turn it in when his status changed ?    In fact the card was "correct" for about 1 year (his discharge was changed in Sept. , 1960 I believe.    

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
picture removed to save attachment space

[Guest]

Oops, mixed them up myself..., both o/c issued by Ayers Sept. 11, 1959

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
picture removed to save attachment space

[Ron Ege]

Paul, thanks.

The DD 217 Form 217 MC is Oswald's discharge certificate.

Whilst on active duty, he should've been issued a DD Form 2 MC ID card, surrendered to the USMC upon his active-duty discharge.

If Oswald then, indeed, entered Inactive Reserve status, one would think the USMC would've issued him a DD Form 2 MCR.

For me, the DD Form 1173, purported to be "Oswald's military ID card" is problematic.

That form is issued by the DOD to military dependents, civilian employees, contractors, and other authorized persons for the purpose of identification, facilities admission, benefits eligibility, and so on.  Oswald was none of these.

Also, as noted above Oswald's DD Form 1173 was "monkeyed with", as indicated by the blacking out of the "OF SPONSOR" in the lower left corner of the front of the card and the insertion of "MCR INACT", i. e., Marine Corps Reserve Inactive.

It would be interesting if someone here could share with us if the service number on the card IS actually Oswald's USMC service number.  Typically, in that era, the service number would have a prefix.  In the USAF it was "AF"; in the USA, I believe, it was "US".

If memory serves, it seems that it was long ago determined that the DD Form 1173, "Oswald's military ID card", as noted at the beginning of this thread, was a forgery - by Oswald and/or person(s) unknown for whatever the reason was at that time.

And yes, A. G. Ayres, 1st Lt, USMC, signing both the DD Form 217 and the "Oswald's military ID card is quite a stretch of the believability continuum.

Don't have the USMC regs/manuals in front of me, but yes, it is difficult to believe that when Oswald's discharge was changed from honorable to undesirable, that he would've been allowed to continue his USMC Inactive Reserve status, along with his ID card, identifying him as such. 

So, in the end, if all of this is just "old ground recovered" for everyone here, apology herewith.

 

 

[Guest]

On the PREFIX : 

the DD Form 2 form number was appended with one of five variant codes denoting branch of service (A, AF, N, MC, or CG)

The colour codes : 

 

• Tan (DD FORM 2765) - Tan identification card recipients are afforded multiple privileges. Recipients include gold-star (surviving) parents and dependents, Medal of Honor recipients, prisoners of war (current and former), Air Force/Army/Navy Cross recipients, and veterans who have been given a disability rating of 100% by the Department of Veterans Affairs.
• Green - Active duty (issued only when the Common Access Card is not available or when a service member is released from active duty and is placed in the Inactive Ready Reserves), depending on location; Member of Individual Ready Reserves or Inactive National Guard.
• Blue - Retired members of the U.S. Armed Forces.
• Tan (DD FORM 1173) - Dependents of active duty and retired members. The card has the same color as DD Form 2765.
• Red (DD FORM 2) - Retired members of the Reserves and National Guard under the age of 60 (Gray Area). Also issued to family members of the Reserves and National Guard not on Active Duty order for more than 30 days.

PS : information from Wiki's United States Uniformed Services Privilege and Identification Card

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

It would be interesting if someone here could share with us if the service number on the card IS actually Oswald's USMC service number.  Typically, in that era, the service number would have a prefix.  In the USAF it was "AF"; in the USA, I believe, it was "US".

Thanks, Ron.  Don’t know about a prefix, but the service number on Oswald’s “Application for Enlistment and Individual Data Card” is shown as “165320,” matching the number on the questionable military ID card.

On our website, HarveyandLee.net, John Armstrong has noted the following peculiarities about this card, which includes information referring to Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald as well as to American-born LEE Oswald.

1. In Box 1 the original name given and entered was "HARVEY LEE OSWALD." The original name of HARVEY LEE OSWALD was erased and replaced with the name LEE HARVEY OSWALD.  Steve Thomas of this forum has an extensive list of many references to “Harvey Lee Oswald.”

2. Box 52 (a). In response to the question "Are your parents living?" HARVEY Oswald said no!

3. Box 52 (b). In response to the question "Are they divorced or separated?" HARVEY said no!

4. Box 53. The name of Robert E. Lee Oswald, DECEASED, was handwritten (not typed) as the father of Lee Harvey Oswald. When and by whom the name Robert E. Lee Oswald was handwritten on this document is unknown.

There are a couple of other oddities as well, which can be reviewed HERE.

Dr. James Norwood brought this recently discovered Application for Enlistment to our attention.

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

On our website, HarveyandLee.net, John Armstrong has noted the following peculiarities about this card, which includes information referring to Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald as well as to American-born LEE Oswald.

1. In Box 1 the original name given and entered was "HARVEY LEE OSWALD." The original name of HARVEY LEE OSWALD was erased and replaced with the name LEE HARVEY OSWALD.  Steve Thomas of this forum has an extensive list of many references to “Harvey Lee Oswald.”

2. Box 52 (a). In response to the question "Are your parents living?" HARVEY Oswald said no!

3. Box 52 (b). In response to the question "Are they divorced or separated?" HARVEY said no!

4. Box 53. The name of Robert E. Lee Oswald, DECEASED, was handwritten (not typed) as the father of Lee Harvey Oswald. When and by whom the name Robert E. Lee Oswald was handwritten on this document is unknown.

There are a couple of other oddities as well, which can be reviewed HERE.

Dr. James Norwood brought this recently discovered Application for Enlistment to our attention.

As with every single aspect of the absurd "Harvey and Lee" theory, there are perfectly reasonable alternative explanations for everything Jim wrote above that do not require the need for a long-term secret government doppelganger project.

[Ron Ege]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks, Ron.  Don’t know about a prefix, but the service number on Oswald’s “Application for Enlistment and Individual Data Card” is shown as “165320,” matching the number on the questionable military ID card.

On our website, HarveyandLee.net, John Armstrong has noted the following peculiarities about this card, which includes information referring to Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald as well as to American-born LEE Oswald.

1. In Box 1 the original name given and entered was "HARVEY LEE OSWALD." The original name of HARVEY LEE OSWALD was erased and replaced with the name LEE HARVEY OSWALD.  Steve Thomas of this forum has an extensive list of many references to “Harvey Lee Oswald.”

2. Box 52 (a). In response to the question "Are your parents living?" HARVEY Oswald said no!

3. Box 52 (b). In response to the question "Are they divorced or separated?" HARVEY said no!

4. Box 53. The name of Robert E. Lee Oswald, DECEASED, was handwritten (not typed) as the father of Lee Harvey Oswald. When and by whom the name Robert E. Lee Oswald was handwritten on this document is unknown.

There are a couple of other oddities as well, which can be reviewed HERE.

Dr. James Norwood brought this recently discovered Application for Enlistment to our attention.

Jim, thank you for the refresher.

I do have a question, in your provided link, near the end, there is this:

" . . . On September 11 HARVEY Oswald was given a Department of Defense photo ID card. . ."

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, if for nothing more that the "OF SPONSOR" being amateurishly blacked out on block 10, I believe that the card is problematic.

Are you able to further refresh my memory and share the hypothesis as to who/what entity may have made up the card and also as stated in the link - the reason - that it "was given" to Oswald? 

I find it interesting that the 09/11/1958 date on the card is the same as the date on Oswald's Discharge Certificate, signed by the same USMC officer.

Also, the expiration date, 12/07/1962, coincidentally, well covers that year for Oswald's eventual return from Russia, on 06/01/1962.  

[Guest]

I don't see Sept. 11 being an odd date. It was the day a lot paperwork had to be brought in order.  All signed by the same officer

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans
picture removed to save attachment space