The Two "Oswalds"

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

What was the US Government's game in using the pictures of two different individuals and claiming they were both Lee Harvey Oswald ? These two are obviously NOT the same person.

 

From ma 5'11" 165lb man to a 5'8" 135lb man in 3 years...  and the shoulders are so different they cannot be the same person

Thanks Gil...  

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

I believe the Harvey & Lee theory in it's most simple form, where a Russian-speaking Hungarian orphan was brought to America and later recruited by the CIA, when he was an older kid. And that he took on the identity of an American kid to hide his Russian speaking proficiency. (There's a ton of evidence for there being such an arrangement.) And the difference in the photos above is explained by that.

Proponents of the theory refer to the Oswald we know as HARVEY and the other one as LEE.

This collage shows photos of HARVEY (bottom) vs LEE (top) over the years.

(EDIT: After posting these comments, I see that David beat me to the punchline. 👍)

 

[Charles Blackmon]

While in the photo on the left the lighting casts a little more in the way of shadow (and likely different exposure time in the darkroom), that would not explain the consistent marked difference in eye tint.

LHO is listed in his military records as having hazel colored eyes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

What was the US Government's game in using the pictures of two different individuals and claiming they were both Lee Harvey Oswald ? These two are obviously NOT the same person.

For crying out loud - this preposterous theory again, which has been thoroughly torn to shreds not only on this forum but also Greg Parker's forum and Tracy Parnell's web site?

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Charles Blackmon said:

While in the photo on the left the lighting casts a little more in the way of shadow (and likely different exposure time in the darkroom), that would not explain the consistent marked difference in eye tint.

LHO is listed in his military records as having hazel colored eyes.

He is also listed as being assigned the job of an aircraft mechanic... not the Atsugi Radar operator he was known to be.

Here is that 4 image transition above as an overlay, one blue one green, using the left eye as the anchor.. I truly do not see how the man can morph in a few years where facial features are no longer in the same places...

[Sandy Larsen]

41 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

For crying out loud - this preposterous theory again, which has been thoroughly torn to shreds not only on this forum but also Greg Parker's forum and Tracy Parnell's web site?

 

The theory has never been torn to shreds on this forum, at least not since I've been  a member (~2016). In fact, Jim Hargrove has handily beaten every person I've seen him debate regarding the two boys.

 

[Charles Blackmon]

Wow the mouth of one Oswald appears to be maybe half an inch below the other Oswald. Outstanding research David!

Edited January 7, 2023 by Charles Blackmon

[Sandy Larsen]

10 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

He is also listed as being assigned the job of an aircraft mechanic... not the Atsugi Radar operator he was known to be.

Here is that 4 image transition above as an overlay, one blue one green, using the left eye as the anchor.. I truly do not see how the man can morph in a few years where facial features are no longer in the same places...

 

Nice analysis David!

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

13 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The theory has never been torn to shreds on this forum, at least not since I've been  a member (~2016). In fact, Jim Hargrove has handily beaten every person I've seen him debate regarding the two boys.

I strongly disagree. In fact, Jim Hargrove ran away and never came back after his most recent beating. Numerous member polls on this forum have also shown that the vast majority of serious assassination researchers dismiss "Harvey and Lee" as pure idiocy.

[David Josephs]

Thanks guys...  

you will also notice as you look threw images of Oswald pre and post 1959 that Harvey 's arms are bent in virtually every image you find whereas Lee's are not

and then there is this...  Anyone care to explain it as the only thing I can figure is that the person on the right is much farther away from the wall than the man on the left...  which then would skew his actual height...  or it was just created for some reason...  No one 5'9" has a head 13" long.

That image on the right remains one of the most suspect in his Marine file...  on the left is from the Aug 1963 arrest if I remember correctly

Edited January 7, 2023 by David Josephs

[Sandy Larsen]

51 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Anyone care to explain it as the only thing I can figure is that the person on the right is much farther away from the wall than the man on the left...  which then would skew his actual height...  or it was just created for some reason...  No one 5'9" has a head 13" long.

That image on the right remains one of the most suspect in his Marine file...  on the left is from the Aug 1963 arrest if I remember correctly

 

David,

I consider the 13-inch mug-shot mystery to be solved. The reason being that there are lots of 13-inch mug shots that be found on the internet, like this one of Paul Newman:
 

Apparently there was (and still is?) a device for taking the shot that gets only the height right. Apparently, as you suggested, the height chart is located some number of inches behind the subject. And this makes the face measure longer.

 

[Paul Brancato]

9 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

Quality of photo

And light

 

[Greg Doudna]

14 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

What was the US Government's game in using the pictures of two different individuals and claiming they were both Lee Harvey Oswald ? These two are obviously NOT the same person.

I have puzzled over that photo on the right for a long time and I agree it does not look like a photo of Oswald.  

I think the clue to a solution may be in the link which Gil gives going to the discussion by Bill Simpich of Peter Dale Scott's study on the 1959 passport and CIA file reporting thereof--the "marked cards" discussion (https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_3.html). Simpich:

"Two days later, the November 2 [1959] dispatch prepared by Freers and Snyder added three more marked cards to the deck. One was that Oswald was "discharged" from the service. Another was that Oswald's highest grade was corporal. The third was that Oswald applied for his passport in San Francisco.

Lee Harvey Oswald's 1959 passport

Peter Dale Scott, the author of the highly revealing essay "Oswald and the Search for Popov's Mole" [https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48692#relPageId=21], carefully examined each of these marked cards. Scott makes a number of observations: Oswald was not discharged, but received a dependency release and had been placed in the reserves with duties to perform until 1962. Also, Oswald's highest grade was not corporal, but private first class. Furthermore, Oswald's passport states that it was issued in Los Angeles, not in San Francisco. Scott focuses on the importance of these anomalies that fill Oswald's CIA file, stating that they are evidence of 'a significant, sophisticated multi-agency counterintelligence operation...Oswald himself was a low-level part of a CI search for a leak or mole'."  

The non-Oswald photo on the 1959 passport could then be another "marked card" associated with the 1959 defection along with the others. The photo is probably of some unknown dead Marine or Navy serviceman dug out of some file somewhere, and no one would notice. Someone with a file of dead servicemen could simply look through until finding one that looked close enough to use but to trained intelligence eyes would be distinctively different. An implication is Oswald would have been witting to at least some aspect of the "marked cards". He would know that photo was not really him. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I believe the Harvey & Lee theory in it's most simple form, where a Russian-speaking Hungarian orphan was brought to America and later recruited by the CIA, when he was an older kid. And that he took on the identity of an American kid to hide his Russian speaking proficiency. (There's a ton of evidence for their being such an arrangement.) And the difference in the photos above is explained by that.

Proponents of the theory refer to the Oswald we know as HARVEY and the other one as LEE.

This collage shows photos of HARVEY (bottom) vs LEE (top) over the years.

(EDIT: After posting these comments, I see that David beat me to the punchline. 👍)

 

I do not see two Lee Harvey Oswalds supported from these photos. Top row 1952, 1953 (with a pen cap between his teeth), and bottom row 1953, 1954, 1956, 1957, 1958 (I assume, haven't seen that before), and 1959 all are Lee Harvey Oswald.

Top row 1957 does not look like LHO. It appeared in a newspaper article without further information on its source. I believe it is a misidentified/miscaptioned photo of someone else unknown. Top row 1958, was published in Robert Oswald's book captioned as a photo of LHO on a hunting outing. I believe that is not a photo of LHO but rather of Robert Oswald's brother-in-law who was part of the outing that day. The book had assistance in editing and layout working from family photos supplied by Robert Oswald and it looks to me like a miscaptioning that slipped through.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Ron Bulman]

I guess there where at least two Oswald's by the time they got to the Texas Theater.