Fred's Flim-Flam Written by Matt Douthit at Kennedys & King with an Afterword by James DiEugenio- powerful!

[David Von Pein]

On 2/14/2023 at 3:17 PM, Pat Speer said:

Let's back up. The problem is not that Connally is an imperfect witness. I think most would agree with that. But you made out that his statements supported the SBT, when they do not. 

John Connally's never-wavering statements regarding the sequence of the shots and which shot hit him are fully supportive of the SBT. Those are the statements I was talking about. Not his misguided belief that the SBT is wrong. (Which is a belief we all know he inherited from his wife, because it's certainly not based on anything JBC himself saw or heard.)

Edited February 15, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

14 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

John Connally's never-wavering statements regarding the sequence of the shots and which shot hit him are fully supportive of the SBT. Those are the statements I was talking about. Not his misguided belief that the SBT is wrong. (Which is a belief we all know he inherited from his wife, because it's certainly not based on anything JBC himself saw or heard.)

Blame it on Nellie. How pathetic. 

Connally said from the beginning that it was his impression Kennedy was hit by the first shot and that he came to this impression before he himself was hit. He stuck by that throughout his life. At times he even said he'd heard the impact on Kennedy. 

As it makes little sense for him to have heard a shot hit Kennedy and then come to the impression Kennedy was hit without realizing he himself had a gaping hole in his chest, his testimony supports that JFK was hit before he was. 

It is strange, moreover, that you will twist yourself into a pretzel denying what he said, when the easiest thing would be for you to just say he was wrong. This suggests you think him a much more important witness than you are willing to admit. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Blame it on Nellie. How pathetic. 

John Connally was highly influenced by his wife's opinion. You surely don't deny that, do you?

 

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Connally said from the beginning that it was his impression Kennedy was hit by the first shot and that he came to this impression before he himself was hit.

And, somehow, he came to this "impression" without even seeing the President at any time during this critical period.

Therefore, IMO, such "impressions" aren't worth very much.

 

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

He stuck by that throughout his life. At times he even said he'd heard the impact on Kennedy. 

Please post something verifying that John Connally ever said such a thing about the first shot that was fired. Because I never once heard him say (or even vaguely imply) any such thing.

Connally always said he heard the impact of Kennedy getting hit with the head shot, yes. But shot #1? I don't think so.

I think you're mixing up your "heard the impact" shots, Pat.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Bill Brown]

On 2/11/2023 at 5:28 PM, Pat Speer said:

That "time" being the rest of his life. 

Here are Connally's earliest statements. 

From patspeer.com:

(11-22-63 report of CBS News' Walter Cronkite, quoting Connally's aide William Stinson's circa 2:00 PM press conference) (On Connally's response when asked from which direction the shots came) "I don't know. I guess from the back. They got the President, too."

(11-27-63 televised interview with Martin Agronsky, transcript printed in the 11-28-63 New York Times.) ”we had just turned the corner, we heard a shot; I turned to my left—I was sitting in the jump seat. I turned to my left to look in the back seat—the President had slumped. He had said nothing. Almost simultaneously, as I turned, I was hit and I knew I had been hit badly. I knew the President had been hit and I said, “My God, they are going to kill us all.” Then there was a third shot and the President was hit again and we thought then very seriously. I had still retained consciousness but the President had slumped in Mrs. Kennedy's lap and when he was hit the second time she said, or the first time—it all happened in such a brief span--she said “Oh, my God, they have killed my husband—Jack, Jack.” After the third shot, the next thing that occurred—I was conscious--the Secret Service man, of course, the chauffeur, had pulled out of the line--they said, “Get out of here…”

(12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) “Governor Connally stated “First sense or realization of anything unusual I became conscious of a shot or what sounded like a gunshot. I knew it came from my right rear. I instinctively turned to my right to look back and as I did so I sensed more than I saw that President Kennedy was hit. As I turned I realized something was amiss with President Kennedy and then I turned back to my left a little and as I did so I got hit with a bullet in my right shoulder just below the shoulder blade and arm pit about four inches from my right side. This bullet pierced my chest coming out the right side slightly below my right nipple. It entered my right arm above the wrist, passed through and then lodged in my left inner leg just above my knee where the bullet apparently split. I believe I remarked “Oh my God, they are going to kill us all!” Realizing I had been hit I crumpled over to Mrs. Connally and she pulled me over towards her…I was conscious of a third shot and heard it…we were all splattered with what I thought was brain tissue from President Kennedy.” …When Governor Connally was asked about the elapsed time between the first and last shot he remarked “Fast, my God it was fast. It seemed like a split second. Just that quick” and he snapped his fingers three times rapidly to illustrate the time and said “unbelievably quick…Governor Connally felt the shots were fired so fast the assassin had hit him by accident on the second shot.”.

(As quoted in Red Roses from Texas, by Nerin Gun, published February 1964. As Gun has Connally stating there may have been a fourth shot--something he never said elsewhere--the veracity of this quote is in question. Did Gun talk to Connally, or was he paraphrasing what Connally had told others? If anyone knows the source of Gun's quote of Connally, please let me know.) "'You can't say now,' said Governor Connally's wife, turning towards the President as the car rounded the corner from Houston Street into Elm Street, 'that the people of Dallas don't love you, and aren't glad to see you." "No, no-one can say that any more," John Kennedy answered. They were his last words. At that moment, the first bullet hit him. He lifted a hand to his throat. Jacqueline, who was smiling and waving to some people on the other side of the road, turned back towards him, to see what was happening. The chauffeur looked up at the small bridge, trying to see what had caused the noise. Kennedy slumped down in the back of the car, and Jacqueline cried: 'Oh my God! They've killed my husband. Jack . . . Jack!' That was when Governor Connally turned to the right. He was to say later: 'The President had blood on his cheeks. He said nothing. Then a bullet hit me in the shoulder. I knew that the wound was serious. I tried to get up, but collapsed into the arms of my wife. It was then that I heard a third shot, maybe a fourth. I saw that the President had been hit again. I cried out: 'My God, they're going to kill us all.'"

(2-3-64 Associated press article reporting on Connally's comments at the annual Associated Press Texas managing editors meeting) "Texas Gov. John Connally, although seriously wounded by the second shot, was still conscious and saw the third and fatal shot strike President Kennedy, he told newsmen today. 'I saw the effects of the third shot--the shot to the head--and I assumed then there was no hope for him,' Connally said of the President's assassination in Dallas November 22. Connally said when he heard the first shot, he had one thought: 'This is an assassination attempt.'...'Frankly, I thought I had been killed, too,' said Connally, his arm still in a sling from the wounds he received. 'I heard the first shot, but not the second which struck me. There was no pain whatever. It felt like a short jab to the back. I lunged forward, there was blood everywhere, and Nellie (Mrs. Connally) covered me.' Connally said his turning to check on the President after the first shot undoubtedly saved his life. 'I looked back over my right shoulder and could not see the President, so I turned to look over my left shoulder. I never completed that second turn when I got hit. Had I not turned, I have no doubts the bullet would have entered my spine and heart.'"

(4-21-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 4H129-146) “we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don’t recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway…We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested…the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt. So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back. (When asked how long it was between the first shot and his feeling the impact) “A very, very brief span of time…I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took…So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to—I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap…I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open, and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something…I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear…Immediately, I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car…brain tissue….on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else. I immediately, when I was hit, I said, “Oh, no, no, no.” And then I said “My God they are going to kill us all.” (When asked about the timing of the shots) “It was a very brief span of time…so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots…it just couldn’t conceivably have been the first (bullet which struck him) …when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached that far, and after I heard that shot, I had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before I felt anything…I never heard the second shot, didn’t hear it…I think I heard the first shot and the third shot.”

 

Pat,

 

John Connally admitted that the single bullet theory was indeed possible (The Warren Report, part 2, CBS-TV, 1967).

 

[Pat Speer]

10 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Pat,

 

John Connally admitted that the single bullet theory was indeed possible (The Warren Report, part 2, CBS-TV, 1967).

 

That's not the point. No one disputes that. The point is that David tried to claim 1) Connally's statements actually support the SBT, when they are in fact a strong argument against it, and 2) that Connally had no opinion on the matter and was simply deferring to his lil' wife. That's garbage. Connally stated from the very first that he thought JFK was hit by the first bullet. He didn't say I don't know but my wife tells me blah blah blah. He was insistent, moreover, that he was not struck by the first bullet. Well, all the early witnesses and pretty much all the witnesses ever said JFK was hit by the first bullet. Connally knew this and could come to his own conclusions. 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Bill Brown]

2 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

That's not the point. No one disputes that. The point is that David tried to claim 1) Connally's statements actually support the SBT, when they are in fact a strong argument against it, and 2) that Connally had no opinion on the matter and was simply deferring to his lil' wife. That's garbage. Connally stated from the very first that he thought JFK was hit by the first bullet. He didn't say I don't know but my wife tells me blah blah blah. He was insistent, moreover, that he was not struck by the first bullet. Well, all the early witnesses and pretty much all the witnesses ever said JFK was hit by the first bullet. Connally knew this and could come to his own conclusions. 

 

 

 

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but you're not understanding what I am saying.

 

Above, you're referring to your current conversation with David.

 

My post above yours just now was responding to your post to me last week when you said that Connally believed in the single bullet theory for the rest of his life.

 

In other words, the current back and forth between you and David is unrelated to my post which, because it took me a week to reply, gave the appearance that it was meant to be a part of your current back and forth with David.

 

Having said all that, David is right when he says, on some level, that some of Connally's words do support the single bullet theory.

 

Connally heard the first shot and assumed it hit the President, a reasonable assumption, though incorrect. He knew he himself was not hit by this shot. Therefore he believed that they were hit by two different bullets.

 

 

[Bob Ness]

On 2/12/2023 at 12:20 AM, David Von Pein said:

And I still wonder WHY CTers refuse to admit this fact:

John Connally HIMSELF could not possibly have KNOWN FOR CERTAIN whether he was hit by the same bullet that struck JFK due to the fact that Gov. Connally DID NOT SEE John Kennedy at the point in time when Kennedy was first struck.

Therefore, based on his own personal observations, how can John Connally KNOW that the SBT is untrue. He can't. He couldn't. And he didn't.

I don't yet recall speaking to a single conspiracy advocate who will admit to the fact I just outlined in the above paragraph. Why is that?

~strokes chin in bewilderment~

Another Fact:

Governor John B. Connally's anti-SBT stance was derived almost totally from his wife Nellie's adamant anti-SBT opinions. And I don't see how anyone can possibly argue otherwise.

 

No it doesn't.

David. This is ridiculous. The Connally's are probably the best witnesses to the shooting. I know that's inconvenient, but seriously, the insistence to take them out of the equation is probably as bad or worse than any CT obsession out there. They were two feet away!

That's one you should back off of.

[Michaleen Kilroy]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

That's not the point. No one disputes that. The point is that David tried to claim 1) Connally's statements actually support the SBT, when they are in fact a strong argument against it, and 2) that Connally had no opinion on the matter and was simply deferring to his lil' wife. That's garbage. Connally stated from the very first that he thought JFK was hit by the first bullet. He didn't say I don't know but my wife tells me blah blah blah. He was insistent, moreover, that he was not struck by the first bullet. Well, all the early witnesses and pretty much all the witnesses ever said JFK was hit by the first bullet. Connally knew this and could come to his own conclusions. 

 

 

 

The FBI agreed with Connally in their report two weeks after the assassination which the WC was assembled to codify - except they concluded 3 shots, 3 hits. Then James Tague showed up.

Comically, Hoover maintained the conclusions of the original report as the FBI’s official version even after the WR was out.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[Michaleen Kilroy]

Let’s face it - the fix was in the minute LHO was dead. That’s when Hoover changed his tune on the weak evidence regarding Oswald, and the DOJ with Bobby bereft went along with it.

For his part, LBJ wanted it wrapped up before the election and allegedly wanted to knock down all conspiracy talk to avoid nuclear war. Course he didn’t mind starting a proxy war with the communist powers a year later in Vietnam.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

Connally heard the first shot and assumed it hit the President, a reasonable assumption, though incorrect. He knew he himself was not hit by this shot. Therefore he believed that they were hit by two different bullets.

And that's incorrect? 

I believe the testimony the Connelly's gave for the entirety of their lives after the event. They were the single best witnesses to the event. 

We of course could go through the investigator's transcripts of Jackie's deposition and see if there's a conflict. Do you have a copy of that, Bill? How about you @David Von Pein?

Edited February 15, 2023 by Bob Ness

[Gerry Down]

4 hours ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

The FBI agreed with Connally in their report two weeks after the assassination which the WC was assembled to codify - except they concluded 3 shots, 3 hits. Then James Tague showed up.

Comically, Hoover maintained the conclusions of the original report as the FBI’s official version even after the WR was out.

Yeah, I wonder if the Connallys effectively shaped the FBIs mindset as to how the assassination occured, and they went along with that before they really understood the problem with the Zapruder film showing the timing was not fitting with the Connallys scenario, and at the same time trying to assert Oswald fired all 3 shots.

[Michaleen Kilroy]

2 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Yeah, I wonder if the Connallys effectively shaped the FBIs mindset as to how the assassination occured, and they went along with that before they really understood the problem with the Zapruder film showing the timing was not fitting with the Connallys scenario, and at the same time trying to assert Oswald fired all 3 shots.

So the FBI got it wrong from the Z film?

The JFKA investigation was stunted from the start by political imperatives. Why don’t we agree to start there?

And imho, the Z film shows exactly what Connally described. @Benjamin Cole does a much better job of explaining how than me.

[Gerry Down]

2 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

And imho, the Z film shows exactly what Connally described. @Benjamin Cole does a much better job of explaining how than me.

The Zapruder film shows Connally and JFK are hit at the same time.

But cos Connally has his back to JFK, Connally didn't realize that the first shot he heard actually missed JFK.

[Pat Speer]

50 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

The Zapruder film shows Connally and JFK are hit at the same time.

But cos Connally has his back to JFK, Connally didn't realize that the first shot he heard actually missed JFK.

You're repeating a myth.

The only photographic panel to study the Z-film, and Connally himself, thought JFK was hit before he went behind the sign in the film.

Most everyone now agrees that Connally was hit after they came out from behind the sign in the film. 

It follows then that they were not hit at the same time.

This problemita was apparent in 1964, and led the WC staff to cook up something called the "single-bullet theory" which hoaxsters like to call the "single-bullet fact." 

But it's a canard, akin to Earth being flat or Russia invading Ukraine to fight evil zombies/national socialists.

In the words of Chuck D, don't believe the hype. 

[David Von Pein]

22 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

At times he [JBC] even said he'd heard the impact on Kennedy. 

Replaying my earlier comment and request from yesterday (maybe Pat didn't see it)....

--------------------

Please post something verifying that John Connally ever said such a thing about the first shot that was fired. Because I never once heard him say (or even vaguely imply) any such thing.

Connally always said he heard the impact of Kennedy getting hit with the head shot, yes. But shot #1? I don't think so.

I think you're mixing up your "heard the impact" shots, Pat.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by David Von Pein